From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 03:52:47 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQkjX-0004B7-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 03:52:47 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 02620EE7A; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 03:52:46 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.101]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8470FEE61 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 03:52:41 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB19qeA24097 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:52:40 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Mon Dec 1 10:52:40 2003 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:52:14 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: [custom] Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?) In-Reply-To: <20031201093212.GA23343@cs.unibo.it> Message-Id: References: <20031201093212.GA23343@cs.unibo.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2003 09:44:51.0109 (UTC) FILETIME=[C4120D50:01C3B7EF] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157221 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 03:52:46 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Enrico Zini wrote: > Well, since I don't see the [custom] tag very often here, I can imagine > that we're not ready for creating a new mailing list. We could just > start using the [custom] tag here, and when we see that debian-devel gets > flooded with [custom] tags, then it will be clear we need a separate > mailing list. IMHO, the problem is that people just do not use the [custom] tag where it should be used and blur debian-devel. > And there's the wiki at http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?CustomDebian: > this long thread contains a lot of useful juice that definitely wants to > land there. Definitely. And as I said: Storing those threads in an extra mailing list archive would make things easier. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 04:00:16 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQkqm-0006vH-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 04:00:16 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4F9ADEE9B; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 03:56:15 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from vsmtp3.tin.it (vsmtp3.tin.it [212.216.176.223]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACBA4EE8A for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 03:55:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from eddie.casa (80.116.78.32) by vsmtp3.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3FC7948600158B88 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:55:45 +0100 Received: from mitac.casa (mitac) [192.168.1.42] (mail) by eddie.casa with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQmrI-0005wV-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 13:08:56 +0100 Received: from enrico by mitac with local (Exim 4.24) id 1AQkmH-0000YU-0h for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 10:55:37 +0100 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:55:36 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions (was: Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?)) Message-ID: <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> References: <20031127095942.GA5174@cs.unibo.it> <20031129111607.GA4784@kamna> <20031129132224.GA1243@azure.humbug.org.au> <20031130155701.GL917@kamna> <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Enrico Zini X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157222 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 03:56:15 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 02:01:40PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: > > We also decided that flavors, subprojects, metadistros, and other > > projects who were interested in customizing Debian *from within* and > > that "Custom Debian Distribution" was the term we could all agree on > > and that we all thought was clear. > Sure, that's a good general term, but it conflates both flavours and > derivative distros. Which is the same as saying "human" conflates both > "men" and "women" -- sometimes you want to ignore the differences, > but sometimes you don't. Could you please define precisely "flavours" and "derivative distros"? I see no problems in documenting that the name "Custom Debian" includes "Flavours" and "Derivative Distros", and then define what they are. It would be a nice way to make sure that we all agree with the meaning of terms, to ease further discussion. For example, I have a clear meaning for Custom Debian, but I don't know how shared it is. On the other end, I feel that if you see Flavours and Derivative Distros as subsets of Custom Debians, then we might have different concepts in mind. We seemed to agree that Custom Debian's goal is to have distributions which are 100% Debian, with a different default package selection and a set of policy-compliant customizations[1]. =20 With my ideas of Flavours and Derivative Distros, Flavours are Custom Debians, but Derivative Distros are things like Knoppix which are derived from Debian but are not policy compliant, and so they can't be called Custom Debians. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/yxAY9LSwzHl+v6sRAilrAJ9lKFe3LjSLsZFERXC6yTNcuItt+ACeM/No tjyH3hidI571F7hlnJJRFe0= =HdUj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx-- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 04:19:18 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQl9C-00064K-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 04:19:18 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 0B959ECA1; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:19:17 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt24.ihug.com.au (grunt24.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.144]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A74EBB2 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:19:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from p186-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.146.186] by grunt24.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQl8s-0007hO-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:18:59 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D185842496; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:18:32 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?) From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: <20031201093212.GA23343@cs.unibo.it> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-gSnx26QX2cYOWYGDMHIl" Message-Id: <1070273912.11898.417.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:18:32 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157224 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:19:17 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --=-gSnx26QX2cYOWYGDMHIl Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 20:52, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Enrico Zini wrote: > > Well, since I don't see the [custom] tag very often here, I can imagine > > that we're not ready for creating a new mailing list. We could just > > start using the [custom] tag here, and when we see that debian-devel ge= ts > > flooded with [custom] tags, then it will be clear we need a separate > > mailing list. > IMHO, the problem is that people just do not use the [custom] tag where > it should be used and blur debian-devel. I concur. Zenaan --=20 Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.o= rg/ Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc Please respect this email's confidentiality as sensibly warranted. --=-gSnx26QX2cYOWYGDMHIl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA/yxV4BTEUyapB5eARAny7AKCrQf8zCjzt2Fr9dxWKhffcRmtEUQCfcYsx KDrF69Mw9jRfZsLTQ8iXu2k= =sP0N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-gSnx26QX2cYOWYGDMHIl-- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 04:38:00 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQlRH-00057a-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 04:37:59 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 94993EE76; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:37:59 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt3.ihug.co.nz (grunt3.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.43]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054A1EC99 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:21:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from 203-118-173-66.adsl.ihug.co.nz (stephen) [203.118.173.66] by grunt3.ihug.co.nz with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQlB6-00005Q-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:21:16 +1300 Received: from philipc by stephen with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQlBX-0003UE-00 for ; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:21:43 +1300 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 23:21:42 +1300 (NZDT) From: Philip Charles Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions (was: Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?)) In-Reply-To: <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <41TaL.A.o6C.Hoxy_@murphy> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157230 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:37:59 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Enrico Zini wrote: > Could you please define precisely "flavours" and "derivative distros"? > > I see no problems in documenting that the name "Custom Debian" includes > "Flavours" and "Derivative Distros", and then define what they are. > > It would be a nice way to make sure that we all agree with the meaning > of terms, to ease further discussion. For example, I have a clear > meaning for Custom Debian, but I don't know how shared it is. > > On the other end, I feel that if you see Flavours and Derivative Distros > as subsets of Custom Debians, then we might have different concepts in > mind. > This may help. I produce an Enhanced 3.0r2 Debian CD set with packages like OOo and security updates etc. This is produced using a somewhat modified debian-cd. The resulting installation is standard Debian with extras. --- A "Custom Debian". I also produce the unofficial GNU Hurd CDs. While the scripts used to build these images are derived from Debian they are different. Most of the packages come from the Debian archive, but many do not. -- A "Debian Derivative". This description would also fit Knoppix, Libranet and Zandros. Phil. -- Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand +64 3 488 2818 Fax +64 3 488 2875 Mobile 025 267 9420 philipc@copyleft.co.nz - preferred. philipc@debian.org I sell GNU/Linux & GNU/Hurd CDs. See http://www.copyleft.co.nz From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 05:42:16 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQmRT-000469-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 05:42:15 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 97858E942; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 05:41:42 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Augsburg.bund.de (Augsburg.bund.de [194.95.179.209]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE74EEB6 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 05:37:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Augsburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id MAA32537 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:37:24 +0100 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:36:37 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions (was: Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?)) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2003 11:29:14.0015 (UTC) FILETIME=[590DAAF0:01C3B7FE] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157233 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 05:41:42 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Philip Charles wrote: > This may help. I produce an Enhanced 3.0r2 Debian CD set with packages > like OOo and security updates etc. This is produced using a somewhat > modified debian-cd. The resulting installation is standard Debian with > extras. --- A "Custom Debian". ... which shows why I've got problems with the term "Custom Debian" because it is missleading people who do not see it as successor of the formerly called "Debian Internal Projects". > I also produce the unofficial GNU Hurd CDs. While the scripts used to > build these images are derived from Debian they are different. Most of > the packages come from the Debian archive, but many do not. > -- A "Debian Derivative". > This description would also fit Knoppix, Libranet and Zandros. This is right but under the terms we defined in Oslo also your first example belongs to this group. The problem is that there was no official announcement where "Custom Debian" was *defined*. Because I'm no native speaker and was not involved in finding the name I did not want to do such an announcement myself. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 10:08:22 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQqb0-0002WX-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 10:08:22 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 16D59ED75; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:08:21 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from azure.erisian.com.au (azure.erisian.com.au [64.235.236.133]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D733FED78 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:08:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from aj by azure.erisian.com.au with local-bsmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQqTp-0005ep-0C for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 02:00:57 +1000 Received: from aj by cyan with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQqIS-0000HE-00 for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 01:49:12 +1000 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:49:02 +1000 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions (was: Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?)) Message-ID: <20031201154902.GD637@azure.humbug.org.au> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organisation: Lacking X-PGP: http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/aj_key.asc X-No-CC: Don't Cc me to mailing list posts unless you really have to Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Anthony Towns X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157261 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:08:21 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:36:37PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: > This is right but under the terms we defined in Oslo also your first > example belongs to this group. The problem is that there was no > official announcement where "Custom Debian" was *defined*. These sorts of terms are generally best defined by use, rather than proclamation, though. "le weekend", anyone? I'm happy to use other terms, as long as they cover all the different possibilities we want to describe. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Linux.conf.au 2004 -- Because we can. http://conf.linux.org.au/ -- Jan 12-17, 2004 From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 10:09:14 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQqbp-00031r-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 10:09:13 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 696DAED78; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:09:13 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from azure.erisian.com.au (azure.erisian.com.au [64.235.236.133]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33EEED99 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:08:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from aj by azure.erisian.com.au with local-bsmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQqTp-0005ep-0B for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 02:00:57 +1000 Received: from aj by cyan with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQqFn-0000H4-00 for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 01:46:27 +1000 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:46:26 +1000 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions (was: Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?)) Message-ID: <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tsOsTdHNUZQcU9Ye" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> Organisation: Lacking X-PGP: http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/aj_key.asc X-No-CC: Don't Cc me to mailing list posts unless you really have to Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Anthony Towns X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <5qCn4.A.A3H.oe2y_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157263 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:09:13 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --tsOsTdHNUZQcU9Ye Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 10:55:36AM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote: > Could you please define precisely "flavours" and "derivative distros"? Damn, I thought I'd already done that. Since I evidently didn't, I'm going to spell things out in as much boring detail as I can. If I don't end up insulting your intelligence, my apologies. :) > I see no problems in documenting that the name "Custom Debian" includes > "Flavours" and "Derivative Distros", and then define what they are. Okay, IMO there are two techniques worth distinguishing that both aim to achieve the same goal. That goal is to put a CD (or DVD, or mirror) in the hands of a user, who can use that CD to get a running, dpkg-based system that does a particular thing s/he wants, and nothing else. If s/he wants to setup a multimedia box that records TV programs and acts as an mp3/ogg jukebox, that's the only sort of software s/he sees -- no web proxies, no intrusion detection tools, no compilers, no documentation on setting up RAID arrays and hot-failover. If s/he wants to setup a fileserver for a small business, s/he might see Samba and Appletalk and NFS, but there won't be any games or scientific analysis tools available. The issue isn't so much one of removing those tools entirely -- ideally, they'll just be an apt-get away anyway -- but of putting the things that are actually wanted on the first CD (or at least the first few CDs), and making the installation and configuration process as quick and easy as possible. I think "Customized Debian" is a good name for that sort of thing -- it's Debian, but it's customised for particular usage scenarios. If the usage scenario is common enough, then that's a real win: one person can do the customisation, and hundreds or thousands can reap the benefits. > On the other end, I feel that if you see Flavours and Derivative Distros > as subsets of Custom Debians, then we might have different concepts in > mind. Now, there are different possible approaches to this. The most flexible is to create a "Debian derivative" -- that is, to take Debian, pull out the bits you like from it, upgrade some things, downgrade others, recompile some of the stuff that doesn't work quite right, improve a few things, and add some completely new stuff. That's great, and it's been demonstrated to work quite well. The problems are straightforward: if you're writing your own stuff, you have to manage your own security updates. If you're forked from Debian, then Debian might make some changes that break compatability with your stuff, and you might have to think a bit to integrate the changes. You'll need to find someone to host your images. You can't leverage most of the Debian infrastructure (BTS, autobuilders in particular, probably). But there are plenty of benefits too: you don't have to worry about non-i386 if you don't want. You can set your own policies and not have to answer to anyone, or convince anyone they're good. You can set your own schedule. If you've got software that Debian can't distribute (it costs money per copy or it's internal-use-only, eg), you have to go this way, to some extent. So that's what I call a Debian derivative. It's obviously a customised Debian, but it's customised by taking Debian and adding stuff to it. While that's by far the most effective way of customising Debian, it's not the only conceivable way. The other conceivable way to customise Debian is just to look at all the packages, and rm the ones you don't care about. If that gives you want you want, you overcome a bunch of the more annoying shortcomings above: you don't have to do your own security updates, you don't have to arrange your own hosting, new upstream releases will be packaged for you without you having to lift a finger, it'll normally work on all supported architectures without any effort, and you can file bugs in the BTS without anyone caring that you didn't install from an *official* Debian CD. That's what I'm calling a "flavour" of Debian. A different analogy which makes a little more pedagogical sense is to consider it a "shade" of Debian -- making the analogy with colours and prisms instead of taste. Debian, the universal operating system, beams white light at you all day long, and you put a prism or a filter in its way to get just the "shade" of Debian that you want. We do this already by choosing which packages we want on individual systems and setting them up, which is fine; but what we really want is to be able get a pre-fab filter from the store, and just plonk it in, so we don't have to bother ourselves all the time. We can do that to some extent at the moment -- with sections and tasks and fai classes eg. Which is okay, but it's *far* beneath the level of coolness provided by Knoppix. And as well, if we get flavours to work almost as well as Knoppix (creating a livecd that autodetects hardware and sets you up in a Linux environment with KDE and Gnome and whatever else, by telling it nothing more than which bits of Debian you want on that livecd), then that makes maintaining Knoppix a lot easier, since half the work is already done. > With my ideas of Flavours and Derivative Distros, Flavours are Custom > Debians, but Derivative Distros are things like Knoppix which are > derived from Debian but are not policy compliant, and so they can't be > called Custom Debians. I'm not seeing any difference between "flavour" and "custom Debian" in the above then. I think it's a waste to have words that mean /exactly/ the same thing. So, using my definitions, the following conclusions are (IMO) true: * all flavours are policy compliant * some derived distros might be policy compliant * you can't always create a flavour to do what you want * you can always create a derived distro to do what you want * improving our mechanisms for supporting "flavours" helps derived distros and their users * we can improve our support for "flavours" by co-opting many of the techniques pioneered by derived distros * a derived distro can be an internal Debian project, but won't ever be /as/ internal as a flavour * distributing customised Debian distros is not only the way of the future, it's the way of the present! Cheers, aj --=20 Anthony Towns I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Linux.conf.au 2004 -- Because we can. http://conf.linux.org.au/ -- Jan 12-17, 2004 --tsOsTdHNUZQcU9Ye Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBP8tiUuRRvX9xctrtAQGvAQP9HhE2IHoxoNzL06pOgmkgGknAPXnuo45N fiWi3ltml39/KP/tjrXdMb2FKWjlH3idrTG/iPccWRjEGGs1Gj7dr7nSPRceni4z RgyyYwbQsFz90BsXmjmaz39IoBTkYRkwxRiOkaD7HWOxyvc/2tkVTbpKOFJTe0l7 CKjHmqKceWk= =TfVK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tsOsTdHNUZQcU9Ye-- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 11:49:03 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQsAR-0004d5-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 11:49:03 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 457A8ED8E; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:49:02 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Augsburg.bund.de (Augsburg.bund.de [194.95.179.209]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF2CED6F for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:48:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Augsburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id SAA11196 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:48:50 +0100 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:48:20 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions (was: Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?)) In-Reply-To: <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> Message-Id: References: <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2003 17:40:56.0593 (UTC) FILETIME=[466D0010:01C3B832] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157273 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:49:02 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 10:55:36AM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote: > > Could you please define precisely "flavours" and "derivative distros"? > > Damn, I thought I'd already done that. The problem is that we want to get those "Custom Debian Distributions" which where formerly known as "Debian Internal Projects" which are Debian-Jr, Debian-Med, Debian-Edu, Debian-Np, Debian-Lex and others (see my talk once people.d.o is up again) under one common thing. These Custom Distributions use the technique of metapackages and have common goals and try to develop common technologies. It would be easy to mention these under one common term for an easy reference. In Oslo was a decision to name it "Custom Debian Distribution" and if we try to speak with each other we have to agree about some terms. This thread shows that there is not yet an agreement and this sucks because we have to explain over and over again what we are talking about. For instance we have defined a term "Package Pools" and everybody now knows what we are talking about ... Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 12:38:55 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQswh-0002RS-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 12:38:55 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id D884FE8E3; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:38:54 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt25.ihug.com.au (grunt25.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.145]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A17E8ED for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:38:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from p186-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.146.186] by grunt25.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQswQ-0001gp-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:38:38 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A6BB342496; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 05:38:15 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distributions From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> References: <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070303895.11042.437.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:38:15 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <_N0TwB.A.EAG.-q4y_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157279 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:38:54 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 02:46, Anthony Towns wrote: > So, using my definitions, the following conclusions are (IMO) true: > > * all flavours are policy compliant > > * some derived distros might be policy compliant Do you mean to include, eg. derived distros including non-free software here, or should we have a separate term for this? > * you can't always create a flavour to do what you want > > * you can always create a derived distro to do what you want > > * improving our mechanisms for supporting "flavours" helps derived > distros and their users > > * we can improve our support for "flavours" by co-opting many of the > techniques pioneered by derived distros > > * a derived distro can be an internal Debian project, but won't ever > be /as/ internal as a flavour > > * distributing customised Debian distros is not only the way of the > future, it's the way of the present! Awesome summary. That's great - it covers all bases, and it makes sense to me (as someone who hasn't used the other terms (internal proj, subproj, metadistro, etc) in the past. I think it would be useful for this to be added to the Custom Debian Distro wiki (here I think: http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?CustomDebian). Thanks heaps Zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://soulsound.net/ * PGP Key: http://soulsound.net/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 12:43:51 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQt1T-0003v1-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 12:43:51 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id ED470E901; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:43:50 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt21.ihug.com.au (grunt21.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.141]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456A3E8E3 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:43:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from p186-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.146.186] by grunt21.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQt1L-0004oc-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:43:44 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7CB4142496; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 05:43:21 +1100 (EST) Subject: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:43:21 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <9IrD_D.A.UqG.mv4y_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157281 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:43:50 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Seems like now is a good time to start a new thread. Including [custom] tag too... On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 22:36, Alexander Kitzberger wrote: > Hello, > we and a couple of other linux companies are also thinking this way, > and we would like also to support a enterprise debian. > > We have the problem that debian has to compete to suse and red hat > enperprise servers which are certified for oracle, etc. > > We like the idea in having also a enterprise debian to have a > alternative, because we like using debian more that other distributions. > > Please inform me if you have any other new regarding this project. I have started a web site at http://debian-enterprise.org/ with various ideas. I shall cut and paste into email below for comment. > I talked to joey a few weeks ago about an ideas that goes into the same > direction: > > This is a extract of my conversation with joey: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hello Joey, > > we and some other linux companies are thinking about some > > things for a while. And now the aquisition of suse make this more actual. > > > > We and the other companies would like to start a new sub-project > > under the debian project that may be called "business debian" > > or "enterprise debian" > > > > The aim of this project is to make a homepage (subdomain or subsection > > od the debian homepage) to present case studies and reference projects > > that service companies like us realized. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To get the discussion under way, here are the ideas I have collated over the last few weeks: Current Ideas List SCOPE - enterprise: company, business, organisation ? - for-profit | non-profit ? - target users: "enterprise" system administrators - clustering ? - ISPs ? - government bodies ? - free software only scope - security scope - hardware spec scope - do we support 386s?, 486s? - deployment scope, eg installations of - thin terminals - pc as - router, bridge - firewalls - workstations - servers - eg. DB, SAMBA, mail, http[s], ftp[s] - secure by default installation? TARGET USERBASE - administrators who want to become proficient and knowledgable - administrators who are already proficient and knowledgable SECURITY GOALS - what's optional, what's standard REALISATION OF GOALS - meta/ task packages - Debian FLAVOURS (to be implemented, but proposed some time back) - website, support forum?, lists, irc, wiki - documentation - tutorials ? - base packages (all Debian "required", since we are debian sub, plus ssh, evms, kernel-linux-deb-ent, ???) - debconf package configurations (with "enterprise" defaults) - custom CD, live CD (debix/ knoppix installer discussions on -devel) - secure live CD? DOCUMENTATION - one-page (where possible, absolute max of one page) install (apt-get) and config guides: the goal being to provide instant recipie/ solution for the busy (or just learning, or having to deliver RIGHT NOW) sys admin. !! - integration with LDP - write a manual (debian admin guide additional chapters) and have it printed and distributed in bookstores COLLABORATION - GNU ERP software project ?name? - I think working with the RHE Fedora project might be important 1st step - red hat stuff - eg. open carpet (ala red carpet)? LEVERAGE - base our initial kernels on the RHE kernels... Regards Zenaan -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://soulsound.net/ * PGP Key: http://soulsound.net/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 14:09:15 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQuM7-00048j-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:09:15 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id CE2E2EF87; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:09:12 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Ulm.bund.de (Ulm.bund.de [194.95.179.208]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93C5EAD1 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:08:49 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Ulm.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id VAA05381 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:08:45 +0100 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:08:14 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution In-Reply-To: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> Message-Id: References: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-15 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2003 20:00:50.0796 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1C2BAC0:01C3B845] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157296 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:09:12 -0600 (CST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > Seems like now is a good time to start a new thread. Including [custom] > tag too... :) > I have started a web site at > > http://debian-enterprise.org/ Did you apt-get install subproject-howto ? It might help you registering a site under www.debian.org (once its services are up again. (BTW, the site seems to be unavailable currently ...) > > This is a extract of my conversation with joey: Just for the record, we have "two Joeys": Joey Hess and Martin 'Joey' Sch= ulze :) > REALISATION OF GOALS > - meta/ task packages - Debian FLAVOURS (to be implemented, > but proposed some time back) As I said: At least other people who use the meta package approach inside Debian use the term "Custom Debian Distribution" ... > - website, support forum?, lists, irc, wiki See above. In general I like your approach. You might have a look at http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-jr/ or http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med/ and the according wml files in CVS (once this service is up again) Kind regards Andreas. -- Sie schaffen eine W=FCste und nennen es Frieden. -- Publius Cornelius Tacitus (55-120) From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 15:04:44 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQvDn-0006Je-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 15:04:43 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4E85EEF8E; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:03:00 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from chef.nerp.net (chef.nerp.net [199.199.210.160]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 878BFEF9C for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:28:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from wookimus.net (c-66-41-158-97.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.158.97]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chef.nerp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073DA1FB06 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:28:31 -0600 (CST) Received: by wookimus.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9B48124EC; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:28:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:28:29 -0600 From: Chad Walstrom To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Using selections (was Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distributions) Message-ID: <20031201202829.GD1952@wookimus.net> References: <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> <1070303895.11042.437.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hYooF8G/hrfVAmum" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1070303895.11042.437.camel@zen8100a> X-Operating-System: Linux skuld 2.4.22-1-k7 X-GnuPG-Fingerprint: B4AB D627 9CBD 687E 7A31 1950 0CC7 0B18 206C 5AFD Keywords: none User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157309 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:03:00 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --hYooF8G/hrfVAmum Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 05:38:15AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > * you can't always create a flavour to do what you want # From a currently installed machine (or chroot)... shell$ dpkg --get-selections > selections shell$ vim selections shell$ mv selections desktop.selections shell$ mailx -s 'my desktop selections' friend@domain.tld < \ > desktop.selections # on friend's computer shell$ dpkg --get-selections > my.selections shell$ diff my.selections desktop.selections shell$ sudo dpkg --set-selections < desktop.selections shell$ sudo apt-get dselect-upgrade -u > * improving our mechanisms for supporting "flavours" helps derived > distros and their users I'd be in favor of setting up user's favorite selections lists. Perhaps this would be appropriate for community forum sites, such as DebianPlanet.org? KISS. If the solution isn't simple and elegant, it's probably not ready for prime time. Distributing selection lists via forums, websites and the like is an easy way of creating flavors w/o making structural changes to the Debian project or increasing the package dependency jungle. If you find your "flavor" is quite popular and isn't being sufficiently covered by an existing Debian Subproject, propose a new one. --=20 Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ --hYooF8G/hrfVAmum Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/y6RtDMcLGCBsWv0RAvkLAJ9Vu7h+c3nZnkJWuNeWREXDEPbTrwCgvIJ/ neqaSfx6DI7EhFm/oNFka34= =1t/0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hYooF8G/hrfVAmum-- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 15:05:41 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQvEi-0006hH-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 15:05:40 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id DA888EFB1; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:03:56 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from chef.nerp.net (chef.nerp.net [199.199.210.160]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28C8EAD1 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:33:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from wookimus.net (c-66-41-158-97.mn.client2.attbi.com [66.41.158.97]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chef.nerp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA71B1FB06 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:33:58 -0600 (CST) Received: by wookimus.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8169E24EC; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:33:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:33:57 -0600 From: Chad Walstrom To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution Message-ID: <20031201203357.GE1952@wookimus.net> References: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="g7w8+K/95kPelPD2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> X-Operating-System: Linux skuld 2.4.22-1-k7 X-GnuPG-Fingerprint: B4AB D627 9CBD 687E 7A31 1950 0CC7 0B18 206C 5AFD Keywords: none User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <9wY6gB.A.I3F.8y6y_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157310 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:03:56 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --g7w8+K/95kPelPD2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 05:43:21AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > - GNU ERP software project ?name? GNU Enterprise (gnue) http://www.gnue.org/ --=20 Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ --g7w8+K/95kPelPD2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/y6W1DMcLGCBsWv0RAtSdAKCtwZZZ77IqyGfgb8IdvtaYu4e/JwCgihwb u25r9hdcfaATeUyZ4x/rJTA= =4dPV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --g7w8+K/95kPelPD2-- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 15:22:30 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQvV0-0004vI-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 15:22:30 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id B92B9E95C; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:22:29 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt26.ihug.com.au (grunt26.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.146]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF83EBEA for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:19:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from p186-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.146.186] by grunt26.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQvRk-00068e-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 08:19:08 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5DF7A41FAA; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:18:41 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070313520.11432.489.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 08:18:41 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157315 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:22:29 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 07:08, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > > I have started a web site at > > > > http://debian-enterprise.org/ > Did you > apt-get install subproject-howto I did actually - after your last such recommendation. Double thanks. > ? It might help you registering a site under www.debian.org (once its > services are up again. Cool. I'll check it out in a day or five :) > > REALISATION OF GOALS > > - meta/ task packages - Debian FLAVOURS (to be implemented, > > but proposed some time back) > As I said: At least other people who use the meta package approach inside > Debian use the term "Custom Debian Distribution" ... Sorry, I should have updated that line. I have decided upon the term Custom Debian Distribution for all my own references. (Note that most other references in [my personal + debian-enterprise] web pages, the email Subject: and my sig, all refer to Custom Debian Distribution. Definitely it's a nice term to use.) > > - website, support forum?, lists, irc, wiki > See above. ta > In general I like your approach. You might have a look at > > http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-jr/ or > http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med/ > > and the according wml files in CVS (once this service is up again) I have spent a little time on those websites, as well as http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-np/ (non profit) (always more to do though). In fact, Debian Non Profit is a nice counterpoint to debian-enterprise, yet I think that technical goals will be more closely coincident than might at first be obvious :) Gotta love free software community-based model. regards zenaan -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://soulsound.net/ * PGP Key: http://soulsound.net/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 18:09:28 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AQy6a-0006PW-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:09:28 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 20CE0EDC4; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:09:11 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from pob.cs.unibo.it (pob.cs.unibo.it [130.136.10.114]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48974EDD4 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:05:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from le1.cs.unibo.it (backle.cs.unibo.it [130.136.10.110]) by pob.cs.unibo.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779F62A234; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:05:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from giovanna.cs.unibo.it (postfix@giovanna.cs.unibo.it [130.136.4.231]) by le1.cs.unibo.it (8.9.3p2/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id BAA24809; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:05:29 +0100 Received: by giovanna.cs.unibo.it (Postfix, from userid 2685) id 47A34233AE; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:05:29 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:05:29 +0100 To: Chad Walstrom Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution Message-ID: <20031202000529.GB850@cs.unibo.it> References: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> <20031201203357.GE1952@wookimus.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031201203357.GE1952@wookimus.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: zinie@cs.unibo.it (Enrico Zini) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <-qwBcB.A.OgC.ng9y_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157334 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:09:11 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 02:33:57PM -0600, Chad Walstrom wrote: > > - GNU ERP software project ?name? > GNU Enterprise (gnue) http://www.gnue.org/ I've just learnt of Cubit from South Africa: http://www.cubit.co.za/ Ciao, Enrico From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 20:59:22 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR0l0-0007mj-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 20:59:22 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 288F4EFF6; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 20:59:15 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from rave.iinet.net.au (rave.iinet.net.au [203.59.130.251]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A67C5ECD7 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 20:42:39 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 17355 invoked by uid 1085); 2 Dec 2003 02:42:38 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 2 Dec 2003 02:42:38 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:42:38 +0800 (WST) From: Niall Young X-X-Sender: niall@rave.iinet.net.au To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157344 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 20:59:15 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On 2 Dec 2003, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > - debconf package configurations (with "enterprise" defaults) To me this is still the largest hurdle, having to work around packages that don't yet use debconf, and not easily being able to take a debconf snapshot and apply it to another host. Being able to do a Noninteractive install of every package in Debian, pre-seeding debconf, or even a separate Debian "registry" if debconf isn't meant to work like this, so you could replicate a system 100% accurately. Even being able to apply a new debconf/registry profile and then asking all packages to reconfigure, that would be impressive. Then it's just a matter of customising anything not handled completely by debconf with, if you will, flavour-postinst etc. in a metapackage or udeb or flavour/class definition. Flavours could consist only of Debian packages from the archive, plus this freely shared metapackage. Perhaps this could even replace the task system eventually, including postinst commands etc. All of the value adding that flavours can provide will be in that last stage, modifying the default configuration, adding pretty interfaces or whatever.. Maybe the terms I've used are incorrect, I'm only vaguely familiar with metapackages/udeb etc. but you get the idea. Flavours simply become a wrapper or d-i hook performed after package installation, to utilise and remain 100% Debian. Perhaps the flavour definition is hosted in the archive and policy compliant, perhaps not. Building live CDs and non-interactive installs are relatively straightforward, but will remain a hack and a maintainer nightmare until the infrastructure enables and supports them imho. Niall Young Chime Communications Pty Ltd niall@chime.net.au Level 6, 263 Adelaide Terrace Ph: (+61) 08 9213 1330 / 0408 192 797 Perth, Western Australia 6000 "Are you a parent who would like to involve your kids in an iiNsanity event?" -- Jodie Evans, Mar 2003 From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 21:45:07 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR1TH-0006jG-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:45:07 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id F025BF02E; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:41:14 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt4.ihug.co.nz (grunt4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.44]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E52EF01D for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:25:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from 203-118-173-66.adsl.ihug.co.nz (stephen) [203.118.173.66] by grunt4.ihug.co.nz with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR19s-00046U-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:25:05 +1300 Received: from philipc by stephen with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR1AK-00046i-00 for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:25:32 +1300 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:25:32 +1300 (NZDT) From: Philip Charles Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions (was: Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?)) In-Reply-To: <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157349 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:41:14 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Anthony Towns wrote: > Since I evidently didn't, I'm going to spell things out in as much > boring detail as I can. If I don't end up insulting your intelligence, > my apologies. :) You have clarified the situation nicely. > > So, using my definitions, the following conclusions are (IMO) true: > > * all flavours are policy compliant Basically sorting the stable archive and modifying the the current installation scheme to suit. Technically easy. The task and exclude lists in debian-cd and a few meta packages, or modify the override-*-extra files. Been there, done that. > * some derived distros might be policy compliant The final test being that the installation is completely apt compatable with a Debian mirror? > * you can't always create a flavour to do what you want Yes > * you can always create a derived distro to do what you want Yes > * improving our mechanisms for supporting "flavours" helps derived > distros and their users And makes Debian more diverse and so more universal. > * we can improve our support for "flavours" by co-opting many of the > techniques pioneered by derived distros People who produce derived distros tend to think "outside the square" and so can add a new dimention to Debian. > * a derived distro can be an internal Debian project, but won't ever > be /as/ internal as a flavour But always remain on friendly terms with those working outside Debian. > * distributing customised Debian distros is not only the way of the > future, it's the way of the present! Sure is, and Debian is by far the best distro for this purpose. Phil. -- Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand +64 3 488 2818 Fax +64 3 488 2875 Mobile 025 267 9420 philipc@copyleft.co.nz - preferred. philipc@debian.org I sell GNU/Linux & GNU/Hurd CDs. See http://www.copyleft.co.nz From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 21:46:21 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR1UT-0007AE-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:46:21 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id EBED3EE1E; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:46:20 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from azure.erisian.com.au (azure.erisian.com.au [64.235.236.133]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B1DF04A for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:42:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from aj by azure.erisian.com.au with local-bsmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR1Qq-0006tt-00 for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 13:42:36 +1000 Received: from aj by cyan with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR1EJ-0001rj-00 for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 13:29:39 +1000 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:29:39 +1000 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions (was: Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?)) Message-ID: <20031202032938.GA7143@azure.humbug.org.au> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organisation: Lacking X-PGP: http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/aj_key.asc X-No-CC: Don't Cc me to mailing list posts unless you really have to Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Anthony Towns X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157350 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:46:20 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 06:48:20PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: > For instance we have defined a term "Package Pools" and everybody now > knows what we are talking about ... Of course, not everyone used the term "Package pools" for the same thing originally. Cheers, aj --=20 Anthony Towns I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Linux.conf.au 2004 -- Because we can. http://conf.linux.org.au/ -- Jan 12-17, 2004 --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBP8wHIuRRvX9xctrtAQEsqQP9Fx4ktqchnMrwFNTQdJkpU/S14DlLgVpu uCxtMzKE11jv3V2bUck7eEnSzvJu234sdFf0Q4S6IfzQr/EyfLzj+E2lI+gb2l6f BVUvESiS036kMDYFibZj03EsbzSFFhNpbBdMgtZbe6gV97ASSGVNrm4rQzcY24ey 3T2ughu923Y= =mvxj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY-- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 22:28:10 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR28w-0005HN-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 22:28:10 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id EDCA6EE2C; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:28:09 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt23.ihug.com.au (grunt23.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.143]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B60EBAA for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:28:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from p186-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.146.186] by grunt23.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR28p-0000tO-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:28:03 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AA9A341FAA; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:27:34 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070339254.11406.608.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:27:34 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157354 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:28:09 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 13:42, Niall Young wrote: > On 2 Dec 2003, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > > > - debconf package configurations (with "enterprise" defaults) > > To me this is still the largest hurdle, having to work around packages > that don't yet use debconf, AIUI, policy will not change "should" to "must" until enough packages already support debconf - otherwise you break too many packages with RC bugs and testing goes dormant for centuries (well, too long anyway). Solution: if it's important to you, get in and start finding packages which could use debconf, and email the maintainers for discussion, and/ or supply patches if you have time and knowledge. > install of every package in Debian, pre-seeding debconf, or even a > separate Debian "registry" if debconf isn't meant to work like this, so > you could replicate a system 100% accurately. Even being able to apply > a new debconf/registry profile and then asking all packages to > reconfigure, that would be impressive. There are many potentially nice features. It is happening and their is interest - FAI, debix, debian-enterprise and other Custom Debian Distributions (aka subprojects, metadistros and flavours) - basically various groups would like such facilities, so it's a shared feature wish. > Then it's just a matter of customising anything not handled completely > by debconf with, if you will, flavour-postinst etc. in a metapackage or > udeb or flavour/class definition. Flavours could consist only of Debian > packages from the archive, plus this freely shared metapackage. Perhaps > this could even replace the task system eventually, including postinst exactly - lost of cool stuff > commands etc. All of the value adding that flavours can provide will be > in that last stage, modifying the default configuration, adding pretty > interfaces or whatever.. Maybe the terms I've used are incorrect, I'm > only vaguely familiar with metapackages/udeb etc. but you get the idea. > Flavours simply become a wrapper or d-i hook performed after package > installation, to utilise and remain 100% Debian. Perhaps the flavour > definition is hosted in the archive and policy compliant, perhaps not. plenty of ideas, good stuff. Do you code and have time and have interest to contribute? > Building live CDs and non-interactive installs are relatively > straightforward, but will remain a hack and a maintainer nightmare until > the infrastructure enables and supports them imho. Perhaps it really is getting to a good time to start a cdd@ldo list (custom debian distributions) for all such topics ?? cheers zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://soulsound.net/ * PGP Key: http://soulsound.net/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Dec 1 22:41:07 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR2LT-0002G4-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 22:41:07 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 06083EE3C; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:41:06 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt21.ihug.com.au (grunt21.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.141]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C500BEE22 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:41:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from p186-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.146.186] by grunt21.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR2LM-0001rz-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:41:01 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 460A741FAA; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:40:31 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions (was: Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?)) From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070340031.11432.616.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:40:31 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157357 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:41:06 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org > Debian-Jr, Debian-Med, Debian-Edu, Debian-Np, Debian-Lex Is there a single place where all official Custom Debian Distributions (CDDs - even a reasonable TLA), aka internal projects, are listed? > These Custom Distributions use the technique of metapackages and have > common goals and try to develop common technologies. Should have a cdd@lists.d.o list then... > It would be easy to mention these under one common term for an easy yes, that would be good > reference. In Oslo was a decision to name it "Custom Debian Distribution" > and if we try to speak with each other we have to agree about some > terms. This thread shows that there is not yet an agreement and this > sucks because we have to explain over and over again what we are talking > about. Actually, it feels to me like we've come to a rough concensus on Custom Debian Distribution. There is agreement a single term is a good thing, perhaps with sub-definitions. No one (unless I missed it) has proposed a better name that hasn't had problems pointed out. I think. > For instance we have defined a term "Package Pools" and everybody now > knows what we are talking about ... Exactly. It comes down to people using it. How would one go about creating a common location for pointers to all of these CDDs? Then, it's up to the projects to start using the term. A list would I think be very good for making cdd discussions stand out at this point - there seems to be enough traffic. But perhaps I'm wrong, I don't know. cheers zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://soulsound.net/ * PGP Key: http://soulsound.net/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 02:15:20 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR5gl-00066U-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 02:15:19 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 92EF5F055; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 02:15:14 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.123]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483DFE8B7 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 02:14:52 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB28EpG09540 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:14:51 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a3.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a3.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Tue Dec 2 09:14:50 2003 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:14:43 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions In-Reply-To: <1070340031.11432.616.camel@zen8100a> Message-Id: References: <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> <1070340031.11432.616.camel@zen8100a> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Dec 2003 08:07:03.0765 (UTC) FILETIME=[45462850:01C3B8AB] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157366 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 02:15:14 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > Is there a single place where all official Custom Debian Distributions > (CDDs - even a reasonable TLA), aka internal projects, are listed? Unfortunately not yet under www.debian.org, but if the redirection loop to people.debian.org is solved again you might consider reading http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/200311_lux_cust This is my current talk about "Custom Debian Distributions" I held at LinuxDays Luxembourg containing all known (to me) projects with URLs and relevant people. I'll prepare a written paper (hopefully) soon. I wished there were more relevant docs about this topic and a common page at www.debian.org but I did not found enough time to care about this in the past. Moreover there is http://www.debian.org/intro/organization where you can find some (not all - for instance Debian-Np is missing) listed in the end under the old name "Internal Projects". > > These Custom Distributions use the technique of metapackages and have > > common goals and try to develop common technologies. > > Should have a cdd@lists.d.o list then... See #160229. > > reference. In Oslo was a decision to name it "Custom Debian Distribution" > > and if we try to speak with each other we have to agree about some > > terms. This thread shows that there is not yet an agreement and this > > sucks because we have to explain over and over again what we are talking > > about. > > Actually, it feels to me like we've come to a rough concensus on Custom > Debian Distribution. There is agreement a single term is a good thing, > perhaps with sub-definitions. No one (unless I missed it) has proposed a > better name that hasn't had problems pointed out. I think. I have no problems with any name because I'm generally holding my breath in naming discussions. On the other hand people who invented a name should care for populating the meaning to avoid confusion. This was not yet done and *this* is the problem. > > For instance we have defined a term "Package Pools" and everybody now > > knows what we are talking about ... > > Exactly. > > It comes down to people using it. How would one go about creating a > common location for pointers to all of these CDDs? Just go for it. You can get CVS access to wml pages even if you are not a DD. > Then, it's up to the projects to start using the term. A list would I > think be very good for making cdd discussions stand out at this point - > there seems to be enough traffic. But perhaps I'm wrong, I don't know. You are completely right. I'm feeling quite alone in propagating the idea (if you keep in mind that also the patch fo www.debian.org/intro/organization.wml was done by me). But I would like to spend my power more to Debian-Med instead of doing the work for all those CDDs. :-( Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 02:31:05 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR5w0-0003ZV-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 02:31:04 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id AC3D1F084; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 02:27:00 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Augsburg.bund.de (Augsburg.bund.de [194.95.179.209]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D47E3F08F for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 02:25:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Augsburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id JAA09372 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:25:40 +0100 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:25:20 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution In-Reply-To: <1070313520.11432.489.camel@zen8100a> Message-Id: References: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> <1070313520.11432.489.camel@zen8100a> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Dec 2003 08:17:41.0140 (UTC) FILETIME=[C12DDD40:01C3B8AC] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157369 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 02:27:00 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > > ? It might help you registering a site under www.debian.org (once its > > services are up again. > > Cool. I'll check it out in a day or five :) If you are interested I could send you my CDD - talk stuff in private mail until people.d.o is up again. > debian-enterprise, yet I think that technical goals will be more closely > coincident than might at first be obvious :) Definitely. I think we could do several technical stuff which all CDDs could profit very much. But it has to be done in common... Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 03:47:11 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR77e-0005b8-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:47:11 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id E159DEE26; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 03:47:10 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from vsmtp12.tin.it (vsmtp12.tin.it [212.216.176.206]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A31DE8CA for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 03:47:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from eddie.casa (80.116.78.32) by vsmtp12.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3FC8F046001C3210 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:47:03 +0100 Received: from mitac.casa (mitac) [192.168.1.42] (mail) by eddie.casa with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR9CQ-0006dv-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 13:00:14 +0100 Received: from enrico by mitac with local (Exim 4.24) id 1AR77R-0001wu-QD for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:46:57 +0100 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:46:57 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution Message-ID: <20031202094657.GB7428@mitac> References: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> <20031201203357.GE1952@wookimus.net> <20031202000529.GB850@cs.unibo.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UugvWAfsgieZRqgk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031202000529.GB850@cs.unibo.it> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Enrico Zini X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157375 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 03:47:10 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 01:05:29AM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote: > > > - GNU ERP software project ?name? > > GNU Enterprise (gnue) http://www.gnue.org/ > I've just learnt of Cubit from South Africa: http://www.cubit.co.za/ ...and of the Impi distribution from South Africa, Debian-based: Welcome to Impi Linux, South Africa's first business desktop Linux distribution. Impi Linux was created from the best software available in the open source world, to give South African users a stable, virus free and very cost effective business operating system. Impi Linux is not just an operating system, but comes bundled with every application that you need to run your business, Accounting, word processing, spreadsheets, web browsing, email and much, much more. (from http://www.impi.org.za, more info in the About link) And also (from http://www.impi.org.za/support.html): Impi Linux is one of the first Linux distributions to be released with a 24/7 telephonic support centre. You could also join your Local Linux Users' Group such as GLUG or you can use an Internet search engine such as Google for Linux. Lastly (from http://www.impi.org.za/contact.html) General enquiries, press, marketing and sales: Ross Addis (hint, hint, hint :) Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/zF+R9LSwzHl+v6sRAkgDAJ9EpWsLgGXVPOEJr9kTS7xyDwPfkACdEund SNkFsHrIszFCVN+Oo92QYS0= =hgyl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk-- From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 04:36:02 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR7sw-000690-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 04:36:02 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 5549AE907; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 04:36:02 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from micha.hampshire.edu (micha.hampshire.edu [192.101.188.235]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7A7E8FB for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 04:35:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha ([127.0.0.1] helo=kamna ident=mako) by micha.hampshire.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR7sq-0001L4-00 for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:35:57 -0500 Received: from mako by kamna with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR7sp-0000Iz-00 for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:35:55 +0100 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 11:35:55 +0100 From: "Benj. Mako Hill" To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distributions Message-ID: <20031202103555.GB1101@kamna> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> <1070303895.11042.437.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="MGYHOYXEY6WxJCY8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1070303895.11042.437.camel@zen8100a> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157381 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 04:36:02 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --MGYHOYXEY6WxJCY8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 05:38:15AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 02:46, Anthony Towns wrote: > > So, using my definitions, the following conclusions are (IMO) true: > >=20 > > * all flavours are policy compliant > >=20 > > * some derived distros might be policy compliant >=20 > Do you mean to include, eg. derived distros including non-free software > here, or should we have a separate term for this? If the derived distro is outside of Debian from a "project" sort of view, they don't have to upload the social contract, respect the DFSG and developer GRs. All internal projects that bear the Debian name must, at the very least, do this to the extent that Debian proper does or it's kind of strange calling them Debian. No? > > * distributing customised Debian distros is not only the way of the > > future, it's the way of the present! Nice. :) Regards, Mako --=20 Benjamin Mako Hill mako@debian.org http://mako.yukidoke.org/ --MGYHOYXEY6WxJCY8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/zGsLic1LIWB1WeYRAqYUAKCrO9n9szcu+EWakSOZ8lET+6sOUQCgvM80 J78IlC5FTvyb6G1VyqIz5ag= =G4rm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --MGYHOYXEY6WxJCY8-- From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 04:43:02 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR7zh-0000L9-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 04:43:01 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 03D99F081; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 04:40:51 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt21.ihug.com.au (grunt21.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.141]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D3AFF077 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 04:39:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from p25-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.146.25] by grunt21.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR7wA-0007ev-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:39:23 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D618041FAA; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:38:52 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> <1070340031.11432.616.camel@zen8100a> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070361532.11406.1534.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:38:52 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157383 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 04:40:51 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 19:14, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > > Then, it's up to the projects to start using the term. A list would I > > think be very good for making cdd discussions stand out at this point - > > there seems to be enough traffic. But perhaps I'm wrong, I don't know. > You are completely right. I'm feeling quite alone in propagating the idea > (if you keep in mind that also the patch fo www.debian.org/intro/organization.wml > was done by me). But I would like to spend my power more to Debian-Med > instead of doing the work for all those CDDs. :-( I'll put together the notes for your talk and a bit about terminology on a Wiki as soon as I figure it out - may be tomorrow. Do you have a mirror of your talk that's not on people.d.o? Thanks for all your positive pointers. Much appreciated. Zenaan -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://soulsound.net/ * PGP Key: http://soulsound.net/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 05:05:36 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR8LY-0000v6-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:05:36 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id CE147F082; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 05:05:32 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt25.ihug.com.au (grunt25.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.145]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA33CE89D for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 04:45:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from p25-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au [203.173.146.25] by grunt25.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR827-0003cR-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:45:31 +1100 Subject: Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: <20031201040140.GA15924@azure.humbug.org.au> <20031201095536.GA2112@mitac> <20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au> <1070340031.11432.616.camel@zen8100a> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070361901.11896.1555.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:45:01 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157389 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 05:05:32 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 19:14, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > > Is there a single place where all official Custom Debian Distributions > > (CDDs - even a reasonable TLA), aka internal projects, are listed? > Unfortunately not yet under www.debian.org, but if the redirection I just realised I'm going loopy - the wiki is the place, and it's already half set up: http://wiki.debian.net/?CustomDebian Sorry, I need some sleep now I guess... I'll see about collating other stuff there... rgds zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://soulsound.net/ * PGP Key: http://soulsound.net/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 05:07:04 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR8My-0001Uf-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:07:04 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id E74F5F086; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 05:07:03 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt25.ihug.com.au (grunt25.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.145]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDF4DE906 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 05:06:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from p25-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.146.25] by grunt25.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR8Ma-00028a-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:06:40 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8A03641FAA; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:06:10 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <20031202094657.GB7428@mitac> References: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> <20031201203357.GE1952@wookimus.net> <20031202000529.GB850@cs.unibo.it> <20031202094657.GB7428@mitac> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070363170.11432.1626.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:06:10 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157390 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 05:07:03 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 20:46, Enrico Zini wrote: > On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 01:05:29AM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote: > > > > - GNU ERP software project ?name? > > > GNU Enterprise (gnue) http://www.gnue.org/ > > I've just learnt of Cubit from South Africa: http://www.cubit.co.za/ ... > ...and of the Impi distribution from South Africa, Debian-based: > (from http://www.impi.org.za, more info in the About link) ... > Lastly (from http://www.impi.org.za/contact.html) > > General enquiries, press, marketing and sales: > Ross Addis Thanks for the references. Will add them to CDD WIKI and debian-enterprise web pages... cheers zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://soulsound.net/ * PGP Key: http://soulsound.net/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 06:08:56 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AR9Kp-00047n-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 06:08:55 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 6983CF0C5; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 06:08:55 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt24.ihug.com.au (grunt24.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.144]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C9F3EE54 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 06:08:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from p25-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.146.25] by grunt24.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AR9K6-0008S0-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:08:11 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 106DC41FAA; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:07:40 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <20031202000529.GB850@cs.unibo.it> References: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> <20031201203357.GE1952@wookimus.net> <20031202000529.GB850@cs.unibo.it> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070366860.11042.1814.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:07:40 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157397 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 06:08:55 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 11:05, Enrico Zini wrote: > On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 02:33:57PM -0600, Chad Walstrom wrote: > > > > - GNU ERP software project ?name? > > GNU Enterprise (gnue) http://www.gnue.org/ > > I've just learnt of Cubit from South Africa: http://www.cubit.co.za/ Thank you very much. Added to website. Zenaan -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://soulsound.net/ * PGP Key: http://soulsound.net/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 14:58:59 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARHbm-0002np-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 14:58:58 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 42D4AE8D4; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:58:58 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from pinchy.nma.fi (pinchy.nma.fi [212.226.175.124]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15AEE8AD for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:58:47 -0600 (CST) Received: by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix, from userid 104) id 7D497B6BE; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:58:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D64B6BC for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:58:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from 6-allhosts (do.paniq.net [212.226.163.85]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4024B6BC for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:58:28 +0200 (EET) Subject: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian From: Fabian Fagerholm To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-RtE74ZlzCAiyV7JRX8Gb" Message-Id: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:58:28 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned-By: AMaViS-ng X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157450 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:58:58 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --=-RtE74ZlzCAiyV7JRX8Gb Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Recently, when thinking about the terminology surrounding Debian Subprojects, I thought about the term "flavor". I always liked that term, because I find it very descriptive. I wrote to Zenaan Harkness concerning Debian Enterprise (http://debian-enterprise.org/), and I suggested that such a subproject would not be creating just one "Custom Distribution", but a set of pre-defined choices. Debian Enterprise could, for example, have an install-time option to set up a file and print server, an authentication server, or a web server. Those would be _flavors_, in my view. Despite all that has been written and referenced on this list concerning these terms, I don't think they are enterily satisfactory. So, I suggest the following choice of words to clarify "subproject" and "flavor": Debian is the super-project. Debian Enterprise is a Debian Subproject that creates a Custom Debian Distribution, with the flavors "file and print server", "authentication server" and "web server". Actually, I'd like to see the term "Custom Debian Distribution" be set aside because a "custom" something is created each time someone modifies an original. Debian Enterprise certainly is an original. By the time a capable sysadmin has installed it, it will (probably) be "custom". ("Custom Custom Debian Distribution", anyone ?) The term suggests that the distribution is "not-Debian", which is unneccessary and confusing. The term "Subproject" suggests that something is "part-of-Debian", which is to be encouraged. A Subproject could extend debian-installer to create a set of related install-time choices. These would be "flavors". (Of course, Debian itself could also have such flavors.) I really don't see the point of encouraging more derivative distributions that possibly fork off into projects of their own, even if it's just a choice of words. Also, a clean structure will help when explaning things to any of the target audiences of Debian Enterprise, Debian-NP, Debian-Lex, any of the other subprojects, or when someone asks about "road maps", "release schedules", etc. Additionally, "Custom" does not sit well when introducing Debian Enterprise to your managers. ("Why do we have to use a custom system? That sounds expensive. Let's go for Windows 2003, that at least works out of the box with no custom stuff in it.") Allowing people to mix and match as they like is also a good thing, which can be achieved if working within Debian and sharing the same package pool. If you look at Bdale's platform from the last DPL election, you'll see that he summarized these things quite nicely: http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2003/debian-vote-200303/msg00014.html So I suggest the following terms: Debian is the super-project. XYZ is a Debian Subproject, which provides the flavors A, B and C. Opinions? --=20 Fabian Fagerholm --=-RtE74ZlzCAiyV7JRX8Gb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA/zPzz76VUNpZBmeIRAjpMAJ955xjldjHMYcjdqIB/p6DORaF9XwCfYWGP +HFQk1bBNXhCpoNGMJOwbtA= =Qn8o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-RtE74ZlzCAiyV7JRX8Gb-- From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 16:12:08 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARIkY-000870-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:12:06 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 9D7F0EB0C; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:12:05 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B46AEAC7 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:11:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARIjr-0003Fl-00 for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:11:23 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sea.gmane.org ([80.91.224.252]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARIjq-0003Fd-00 for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:11:22 +0100 Received: from news by sea.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARIjq-0003cQ-00 for ; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:11:22 +0100 From: Andres Salomon Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:11:22 -0500 Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity. (Debian GNU/Linux)) Sender: news X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157456 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:12:05 -0600 (CST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:58:28 +0200, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Recently, when thinking about the terminology surrounding Debian > Subprojects, I thought about the term "flavor". I always liked that > term, because I find it very descriptive. >=20 [...] > So I suggest the following terms: >=20 > Debian is the super-project. > XYZ is a Debian Subproject, > which provides the flavors A, B and C. >=20 > Opinions? I'm always a fan of clearly defined terminology. I also like the idea of not limiting a sub-project too much; otherwise we'd probably see a large number of sub-projects formed, w/ discussion on their respective lists being splintered (but applicable to more than one). Flavors sound a lot like a subset of tasks. There are task groupings like "gnome", with another task group like "web-cluster" (that pulls in apache/ipvs/keepalived/heartbeat/etc). The difference being that one is simply a collection of packages, while the other is an installation or server category. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 16:58:17 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARJTE-0005qv-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:58:16 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 978F9EB28; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:58:14 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de (sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de [134.60.220.1]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 082BFEAFF for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:21:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 24948 invoked by uid 3342); 2 Dec 2003 22:21:03 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:21:03 +0100 From: Joerg Wendland To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian Message-ID: <20031202222103.GQ19032@sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="m+utxuhC6KVTvgNz" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <5OSAPD.A.LvE.GkRz_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157460 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:58:14 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --m+utxuhC6KVTvgNz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fabian Fagerholm, on 2003-12-02, 22:58, you wrote: > Debian is the super-project. > XYZ is a Debian Subproject, > which provides the flavors A, B and C. >=20 > Opinions? I like that though my in opinion flavors should only exist as specialized installers, specialized kernels and package collections via tasks and meta-packages. In this way everything keeps Debian and what you get onto your machine depends only on the way you install Debian. Joerg --=20 Joerg "joergland" Wendland GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417 --m+utxuhC6KVTvgNz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/zRBPV6N/vVHPhBcRAmSYAJ91eFAV3OVcuMQz91lh3s9fPC9GEQCeO46C yksyF38WN0ZwajlQPwoPfE4= =J9c1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --m+utxuhC6KVTvgNz-- From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 17:05:00 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARJZj-00018G-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:04:59 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id AEAE7EBDB; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:04:58 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt22.ihug.com.au (grunt22.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.142]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE4FEB78 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:38:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from p25-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au [203.173.146.25] by grunt22.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARJAB-0007Dp-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 09:38:36 +1100 Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian From: Zenaan Harkness To: Debian Devel In-Reply-To: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070404676.11896.3198.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 09:37:56 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <6lS-yB.A.zmG.aqRz_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157463 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:04:58 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 07:58, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > Debian Enterprise could, for example, have an > install-time option to set up a file and print server, an authentication > server, or a web server. Those would be _flavors_, in my view. Despite > all that has been written and referenced on this list concerning these > terms, I don't think they are enterily satisfactory. So, I suggest the > following choice of words to clarify "subproject" and "flavor": > > Debian is the super-project. > Debian Enterprise is a Debian Subproject that creates > a Custom Debian Distribution, Subproject and custom debian distribution, here, are the same thing. No point "officially" having two terms. CDD is a term that I think is intended to be a little more expansive than subproject, so I think that's more applicable for this "level" of naming... > with the flavors "file and print server", "authentication > server" and "web server". I like that. In one of the recent threads someone else also said (requested?) that additional terms defining more specific things come under the CDD umbrella term. See the very comprehensive message "Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions (was: Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?))" from Anthony Towns, 20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au. > Actually, I'd like to see the term "Custom Debian Distribution" be set > aside because a "custom" something is created each time someone modifies > an original. Debian Enterprise certainly is an original. By the time a Correct depending on your view. But it is also true that Debian GNU/Linux is an original, of which Debian Enterprise is a customization - and this is the useful distinction in this case. > capable sysadmin has installed it, it will (probably) be "custom". > ("Custom Custom Debian Distribution", anyone ?) "more custom"? :) The concept "flavours" might tie in nicely here as "fine grained customization", so Local Flavour => Local Customization (Layer). > The term suggests that the distribution is "not-Debian", which is I disagree. Custom Debian Distribution, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ implies (to me) Debian, but customized. > unneccessary and confusing. The term "Subproject" suggests that > something is "part-of-Debian", which is to be encouraged. I think it might be just because you are used to the term subproject. Any new distinction (and CDD is not identical to subproject), meets with "mental disjunction" or something, until familiarity sets in. Unless "subproject" is technically more accurate (which I don't think it is - see Anthony's message as above), it is like, as someone said earlier, going from "archive" and "dists" to "pools". A broader concept, seeming not quite right, or a bit bizzarre at first, yet today we wouldn't do without it. > A Subproject could extend debian-installer to create a set of related > install-time choices. These would be "flavors". (Of course, Debian Yes, this concept of flavors is a useful one I think. > itself could also have such flavors.) I really don't see the point of > encouraging more derivative distributions that possibly fork off into > projects of their own, even if it's just a choice of words. I have to say I think the term Custom Debian Distribution (particularly when capitalized) conveys (to me at least) a strong sense of association with Debian proper. > Also, a clean structure will help when explaning things to any of the > target audiences of Debian Enterprise, Debian-NP, Debian-Lex, any of the > other subprojects, or when someone asks about "road maps", "release Exactly. This is one of the useful points of deciding on common terminology. Have you seen the Custom Debian wiki yet (I only found out about it yesterday surprisingly): http://wiki.debian.net/?CustomDebian > schedules", etc. Additionally, "Custom" does not sit well when > introducing Debian Enterprise to your managers. ("Why do we have to use > a custom system? That sounds expensive. Let's go for Windows 2003, that > at least works out of the box with no custom stuff in it.") If you are doing a sell to a client that does not sit well with the term Custom, simply promote Debian Enterprise. You could then use phrases like "open source and free software perfectly _taylored_ to your needs". And charge them what they are willing to pay, that you can still make a profit on (you can make a profit or a loss, and if you make a loss indefinitely you will no longer have a business). > Allowing people to mix and match as they like is also a good thing, > which can be achieved if working within Debian and sharing the same > package pool. If you look at Bdale's platform from the last DPL > election, you'll see that he summarized these things quite nicely: > http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2003/debian-vote-200303/msg00014.html > > So I suggest the following terms: > > Debian is the super-project. > XYZ is a Debian Subproject, > which provides the flavors A, B and C. I agree almost completely, except I'd use the (slightly broader) Custom Debian Distribution term for the middle layer. Thanks for sharing your extensive thoughts on the matter, Zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 17:33:43 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARK1W-00077n-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:33:42 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id CFA1FEB00; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:33:41 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt21.ihug.com.au (grunt21.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.141]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F72DEA85 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:33:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from p25-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.146.25] by grunt21.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARK11-0005LW-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:33:11 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B8D2B41FAA; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:32:31 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian From: Zenaan Harkness To: Debian Devel In-Reply-To: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070407951.11406.3363.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:32:31 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157468 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:33:41 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 07:58, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > Debian Enterprise could, for example, have an > install-time option to set up a file and print server, an authentication > server, or a web server. Those would be _flavors_, in my view. Despite > all that has been written and referenced on this list concerning these > terms, I don't think they are enterily satisfactory. So, I suggest the > following choice of words to clarify "subproject" and "flavor": > > Debian is the super-project. > Debian Enterprise is a Debian Subproject that creates > a Custom Debian Distribution, Subproject and custom debian distribution, here, are the same thing. No point "officially" having two terms. CDD is a term that I think is intended to be a little more expansive than subproject, so I think that's more applicable for this "level" of naming... > with the flavors "file and print server", "authentication > server" and "web server". I like that. In one of the recent threads someone else also said (requested?) that additional terms defining more specific things come under the CDD umbrella term. See the very comprehensive message "Re: [custom] Re: Custom Debian Distributions (was: Re: Integrate Knoppix in Debian (was: Re: Debian Enterprise?))" from Anthony Towns, 20031201154626.GC637@azure.humbug.org.au. > Actually, I'd like to see the term "Custom Debian Distribution" be set > aside because a "custom" something is created each time someone modifies > an original. Debian Enterprise certainly is an original. By the time a Correct depending on your view. But it is also true that Debian GNU/Linux is an original, of which Debian Enterprise is a customization - and this is the useful distinction in this case. > capable sysadmin has installed it, it will (probably) be "custom". > ("Custom Custom Debian Distribution", anyone ?) "more custom"? :) The concept "flavours" might tie in nicely here as "fine grained customization", so Local Flavour => Local Customization (Layer). > The term suggests that the distribution is "not-Debian", which is I disagree. Custom Debian Distribution, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ implies (to me) Debian, but customized. > unneccessary and confusing. The term "Subproject" suggests that > something is "part-of-Debian", which is to be encouraged. I think it might be just because you are used to the term subproject. Any new distinction (and CDD is not identical to subproject), meets with "mental disjunction" or something, until familiarity sets in. Unless "subproject" is technically more accurate (which I don't think it is - see Anthony's message as above), it is like, as someone said earlier, going from "archive" and "dists" to "pools". A broader concept, seeming not quite right, or a bit bizzarre at first, yet today we wouldn't do without it. > A Subproject could extend debian-installer to create a set of related > install-time choices. These would be "flavors". (Of course, Debian Yes, this concept of flavors is a useful one I think. > itself could also have such flavors.) I really don't see the point of > encouraging more derivative distributions that possibly fork off into > projects of their own, even if it's just a choice of words. I have to say I think the term Custom Debian Distribution (particularly when capitalized) conveys (to me at least) a strong sense of association with Debian proper. > Also, a clean structure will help when explaning things to any of the > target audiences of Debian Enterprise, Debian-NP, Debian-Lex, any of the > other subprojects, or when someone asks about "road maps", "release Exactly. This is one of the useful points of deciding on common terminology. Have you seen the Custom Debian wiki yet (I only found out about it yesterday surprisingly): http://wiki.debian.net/?CustomDebian > schedules", etc. Additionally, "Custom" does not sit well when > introducing Debian Enterprise to your managers. ("Why do we have to use > a custom system? That sounds expensive. Let's go for Windows 2003, that > at least works out of the box with no custom stuff in it.") If you are doing a sell to a client that does not sit well with the term Custom, simply promote Debian Enterprise. You could then use phrases like "open source and free software perfectly _taylored_ to your needs". And charge them what they are willing to pay, that you can still make a profit on (you can make a profit or a loss, and if you make a loss indefinitely you will no longer have a business). > Allowing people to mix and match as they like is also a good thing, > which can be achieved if working within Debian and sharing the same > package pool. If you look at Bdale's platform from the last DPL > election, you'll see that he summarized these things quite nicely: > http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2003/debian-vote-200303/msg00014.html > > So I suggest the following terms: > > Debian is the super-project. > XYZ is a Debian Subproject, > which provides the flavors A, B and C. I agree almost completely, except I'd use the (slightly broader) Custom Debian Distribution term for the middle layer. Thanks for sharing your extensive thoughts on the matter, Zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 17:39:05 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARK6i-0001OC-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:39:04 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 5BAB5EBB5; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:39:04 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt22.ihug.com.au (grunt22.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.142]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE92EB5D for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:38:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from p25-tnt6.syd.ihug.com.au [203.173.146.25] by grunt22.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARK6M-0007Qq-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:38:43 +1100 Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian From: Zenaan Harkness To: Debian Devel In-Reply-To: <20031202222103.GQ19032@sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de> References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <20031202222103.GQ19032@sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070408283.22840.2.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:38:03 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157471 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:39:04 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 09:21, Joerg Wendland wrote: > Fabian Fagerholm, on 2003-12-02, 22:58, you wrote: > > Debian is the super-project. > > XYZ is a Debian Subproject, > > which provides the flavors A, B and C. > > > > Opinions? > > I like that though my in opinion flavors should only exist as > specialized installers, specialized kernels and package collections via > tasks and meta-packages. In this way everything keeps Debian and what > you get onto your machine depends only on the way you install Debian. This is indeed the intention/ goal here. Some things, like debix/ knoppix live CDs start out with cool ideas that get implemented, before becoming policy compliant and "part of debian proper". And that's fine - having experiemental stuff pushing the edge is great actually. Ultimately we end up with more and better toys! cheers zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 21:33:47 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARNlr-0001TC-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:33:47 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 561D0E9E4; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:33:47 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt26.ihug.com.au (grunt26.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.146]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1204E8E5 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:33:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from p137-tnt1.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.128.137] by grunt26.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARNld-0005og-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:33:34 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8E68342393; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:32:54 +1100 (EST) Subject: [custom] Debian Enterprise - policies From: Zenaan Harkness To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" Cc: discuss@server.userlinux.com Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070422374.23088.190.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:32:54 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157513 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:33:47 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org (Please CC discuss@lists.userlinux.com) To throw them into the ring: * DFSG Free Software only (I know this one will get debated, but this is the whole point of Debian Enterprise - if you want proprietary software, go buy Red Hat or SUSE/Novell). * Specifically targetting For-Profit entities (vs Debian-NP) * 100% Debian (Social Contract, DFSG, policies + procedures) That should get the ball rolling... cheers zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 21:40:11 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARNs3-0002wK-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:40:11 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 350F5E9BE; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:40:11 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt21.ihug.com.au (grunt21.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.141]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E6A8E8E5 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:40:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from p137-tnt1.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.128.137] by grunt21.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARNrr-0001y4-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:39:59 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CE71242393; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:39:19 +1100 (EST) Subject: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages From: Zenaan Harkness To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" Cc: discuss@server.userlinux.com Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070422759.23088.203.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:39:19 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <6abBhB.A.VhD.asVz_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157514 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:40:11 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org To give limits to Debian Enterprise/ User Linux we need to define some areas of focus. Flavours (and sub-flavours/ tasks/ yadda) is as good a place to start as any. So here are some proposed flavours: - Enterprise (base packages and more "neutral" config) - Enterprise Desktop - with sub-flavours of: - Secretary Desktop - Presentation Client (OO Presenter, multimedia, flash) - Developer Desktop (all build-depends of all flavours, as a start) - Enterprise Fileserver - Enterprise Webserver - Enterprise Auth Server - Enterprise Departmental Server (combines File, Web + Auth) - Enterprise Firewall - Enterprise SCM Server - Enterprise Router - Enterprise Thin Client cheers zenaan -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 21:46:36 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARNyG-0004Uy-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:46:36 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 7692DE9C2; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:46:36 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt21.ihug.com.au (grunt21.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.141]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE03E8E5 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:46:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from p137-tnt1.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.128.137] by grunt21.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARNyB-0004gQ-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:46:31 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D718C42393; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:45:51 +1100 (EST) Subject: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages From: Zenaan Harkness To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" Cc: discuss@server.userlinux.com Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:45:51 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157515 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:46:36 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org As per the recommendations from Bruce Perens' User Linux paper http://userlinux.com/white_paper.html, this thread is to discuss the applications within the bounded set of Debian Enterprise/ User Linux. The bounded set will depend on the flavour. So first comes proposed flavours (and sub-flavours/ tasks/ yadda) - see previous email/ thread. Here are some initial (obviously debatable and incomplete) selections to start out the bounded-apps conversation: * Web Browser - Mozilla-Firebird I've used Mozilla, Galeon in its day, more recently Epiphany, and the last few months Moz-Firebird. It is simply the simplest (and in my opinion best) of the crop. * Web Server - Apache 2.0 (let's get with the times) * Open SSH Implementation - OpenSSH (much more active that gnu version) * Office Suite - OpenOffice (there's no other near as feature complete) * Scripting Language - Python (no one will debate this one :) - I have never used, only read (plenty) about Python, and I'm not personally too sure about this white space thing, but from what I hear about it (quite consistently) eventually feeling more "natural" than anything else, I am inclined to believe this really is the case. My experience with Java (after C/C++) was sort of like that, and if Python is more so, then I think it could be closest to the next VB replacement. Some client of some service provider may however commission completion of VB clone, or VB# or whatever. - MONO (go-mono.org/net/com?) is from the sound of it may be a year away, but perhaps that's a reasonable time frame, if we were to go with .NET/MONO for scripting. - Java - I think this is the only other reasonable alternative, and should perhaps be the first choice (due to being as entrenched as it is in middleware/ corporate) - there are a few Free Software implementations, including one fully integrated with GCC toolchain (which I think is just too sweet) - namely gcj. * Mail Server - Postfix (scales more than exim, not as restrictive to admiinister as qmail). * Package format (had you going there - obviously DEBs!) Please add to the list as per your personal exprience dictates. Thanks Zenaan -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 21:53:01 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARO4T-00061i-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:53:01 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 9F2ECEA4E; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:53:01 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt22.ihug.com.au (grunt22.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.142]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66BCCE895 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:52:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from p137-tnt1.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.128.137] by grunt22.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARO4L-0007qW-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:52:53 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E600542393; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:52:13 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages From: Zenaan Harkness To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" Cc: discuss@server.userlinux.com In-Reply-To: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070423533.23088.225.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:52:13 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157516 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:53:01 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 14:45, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > As per the recommendations from Bruce Perens' User Linux paper > http://userlinux.com/white_paper.html, this thread is to discuss the > applications within the bounded set of Debian Enterprise/ User Linux. > > The bounded set will depend on the flavour. So first comes proposed > flavours (and sub-flavours/ tasks/ yadda) - see previous email/ thread. > > Here are some initial (obviously debatable and incomplete) selections to > start out the bounded-apps conversation: > > * Web Browser ... * Desktop Suite - GNOME (as more-Windows-like as KDE is, GNOME definitely has greater momentum, with SUN and HP, and now Novell's acquisition of Ximian and SUSE and corresponding statements - really, there's no point fighting the tide on this one). * DB lib, LDAP lib, etc - as a consequence of the GNOME choice, the simple choice for these becomes "does GNOME already provide a relatively feature complete/ stable implementation" (and if so, that's the standard we go with). * Documentation format/ standards - Docbook XML (and for the toolchain - I'm waiting for a reponse to an RFInformation on debian-sgml, which I intend to subsequently cross-post/ discuss on docbook and docbook-apps) -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 21:53:46 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARO5C-0006CF-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:53:46 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 39950EA77; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:53:46 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt22.ihug.com.au (grunt22.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.142]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C940E8E5 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:53:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from p137-tnt1.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.128.137] by grunt22.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARO4p-00082W-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:53:23 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B461642393; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:52:43 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - policies From: Zenaan Harkness To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" Cc: discuss@server.userlinux.com In-Reply-To: <1070422374.23088.190.camel@zen8100a> References: <1070422374.23088.190.camel@zen8100a> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070423562.23088.227.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:52:43 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157518 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:53:46 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 14:32, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > (Please CC discuss@lists.userlinux.com) > > To throw them into the ring: > > * DFSG Free Software only (I know this one will get debated, but this is > the whole point of Debian Enterprise - if you want proprietary software, > go buy Red Hat or SUSE/Novell). > > * Specifically targetting For-Profit entities (vs Debian-NP) > > * 100% Debian (Social Contract, DFSG, policies + procedures) * LSB compliance * "Official" statement as to support of Freedesktop.org standards * Other standards ?? -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 21:56:19 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARO7e-0006ZE-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:56:18 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id D3B39EB7B; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:56:18 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt21.ihug.com.au (grunt21.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.141]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792FEEA77 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:56:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from p137-tnt1.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.128.137] by grunt21.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARO7O-0000NV-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:56:03 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B317942393; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:55:19 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - policies From: Zenaan Harkness To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" Cc: discuss@server.userlinux.com In-Reply-To: <1070423562.23088.227.camel@zen8100a> References: <1070422374.23088.190.camel@zen8100a> <1070423562.23088.227.camel@zen8100a> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070423719.23088.230.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:55:19 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <9N7pxC.A.3xF.i7Vz_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157519 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:56:18 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 14:52, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 14:32, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > > (Please CC discuss@lists.userlinux.com) > > > > To throw them into the ring: > > > > * DFSG Free Software only (I know this one will get debated, but this is > > the whole point of Debian Enterprise - if you want proprietary software, > > go buy Red Hat or SUSE/Novell). > > > > * Specifically targetting For-Profit entities (vs Debian-NP) > > > > * 100% Debian (Social Contract, DFSG, policies + procedures) > > * LSB compliance > > * "Official" statement as to support of Freedesktop.org standards > > * Other standards ?? Of course, the various security standards ("C" levels and the like - there's are running posts on -devel at the moment if I remember rightly, thanks to some thoughtful individual). cheers zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 21:59:11 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AROAQ-00077W-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:59:10 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id D3EF8EB03; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:59:10 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt25.ihug.com.au (grunt25.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.145]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9E3E9E4 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:59:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from p137-tnt1.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.128.137] by grunt25.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AROAI-0004eQ-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:59:03 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1A29342393; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:58:18 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - flavors From: Zenaan Harkness To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" Cc: discuss@server.userlinux.com In-Reply-To: <1070422759.23088.203.camel@zen8100a> References: <1070422759.23088.203.camel@zen8100a> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070423898.23088.238.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:58:18 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157520 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:59:10 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org (re-titled to - flavors) To give limits to Debian Enterprise/ User Linux we need to define some areas of focus. Flavours (and sub-flavours/ tasks/ yadda) is as good a place to start as any. So here are some proposed flavours: - Enterprise (base packages and more "neutral" config) - Enterprise Desktop - with sub-flavours of: - Secretary Desktop - Presentation Client (OO Presenter, multimedia, flash) - Developer Desktop (all build-depends of all flavours, as a start) - Enterprise Fileserver - Enterprise Webserver - Enterprise Auth Server - Enterprise Departmental Server (combines File, Web + Auth) - Enterprise Firewall - Enterprise SCM Server - Enterprise Router - Enterprise Thin Client cheers zenaan -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 22:01:54 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AROD4-0007Ov-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:01:54 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 46344EBC7; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:01:54 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt21.ihug.com.au (grunt21.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.141]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D49B1EBC1 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:01:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from p137-tnt1.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.iptaustralia.net) [203.173.128.137] by grunt21.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AROCz-0002ln-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:01:49 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.iptaustralia.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0EA9742393; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:01:09 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - policies From: Zenaan Harkness To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" Cc: discuss@server.userlinux.com In-Reply-To: <1070423719.23088.230.camel@zen8100a> References: <1070422374.23088.190.camel@zen8100a> <1070423562.23088.227.camel@zen8100a> <1070423719.23088.230.camel@zen8100a> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070424069.22840.243.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:01:09 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157521 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:01:54 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org (Really should read ahead further ... here are more, and all laid out together) * DFSG Free Software only (I know this one will get debated, but this is the whole point of Debian Enterprise - if you want proprietary software, go buy Red Hat or SUSE/Novell). * Specifically targetting For-Profit entities (vs Debian-NP) * 100% Debian (Social Contract, DFSG, policies + procedures) * LSB compliance * "Official" statement as to support of Freedesktop.org standards * Common Criteria ("not until we're big enough") * OpenCOE ("the COE folks had to wedge _apt_ into Red Hat to get it to work to their satisfaction") * "we have a FIPS 140 certification for OpenSSL" * Other standards ?? -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 22:49:31 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AROx9-0004if-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:49:31 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 30C1AEBF4; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:49:30 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from glockenspiel.complete.org (glockenspiel.complete.org [69.10.152.57]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2179EEB73 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:49:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by glockenspiel.complete.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9EA44; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:49:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from erwin.complete.org (unknown [12.149.180.20]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "erwin.complete.org", Issuer "John Goerzen -- Root CA" (verified OK)) by glockenspiel.complete.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EB85A; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:49:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from heinrich.complete.org (heinrich.lan.complete.org [10.200.0.15]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "christoph.complete.org", Issuer "John Goerzen -- Root CA" (verified OK)) by erwin.complete.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E91273B; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:49:20 -0600 (CST) Received: by heinrich.complete.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A00A62483; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:49:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:49:20 -0600 From: John Goerzen To: Zenaan Harkness Cc: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" , discuss@server.userlinux.com Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages Message-ID: <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Scanned-By: clamscan at complete.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157524 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:49:30 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org First of all. This is obviously not a Debian project (since it is not operating within the Debian framework.) I don't see why this then necessitates over a dozen threads on debian-devel -- AND why it gets to call itself "Debian." Moreover, I remain unconvinced that there is any need to split from the regular Debian framework, especially since it seems that all you're doing is removing choices. (Though I admit I killfiled the earlier threads on the topic because they were too unwieldy) Anyway: On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 02:45:51PM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > * Office Suite - OpenOffice (there's no other near as feature complete) And OpenOffice is the only one that runs on only two -- yes, two -- architectures that Debian supports. > * Scripting Language - Python (no one will debate this one :) If you think you can get every large enterprise worldwide to standardize on a single scripting language -- much less get even ONE to do that -- then you will surely be nominated for several nobel prizes. -- John From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Dec 2 23:14:45 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARPLZ-00083l-00; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:14:45 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 897C3ECCE; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:14:38 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from andromeda.oftc.net (andromeda.oftc.net [80.190.233.18]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04B5ECB6 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:14:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from [24.101.18.86] (helo=willow.eelf.ddts.net) by andromeda.oftc.net with asmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA:16) (Exim 4.24) id 1ARPLJ-0003aO-QG for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 05:14:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=willow.eelf.ddts.net) by willow.eelf.ddts.net with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1ARPLF-0007sP-JX for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:14:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:14:25 -0500 From: David B Harris To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages Message-Id: <20031203001425.4f1f04b5.david@eelf.ddts.net> In-Reply-To: <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> Organization: Tachyon Systems X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mail-Copies-To: nobody Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <8yWKr.A.uAD.9EXz_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157526 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:14:38 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:49:20 -0600 John Goerzen wrote: > First of all. This is obviously not a Debian project (since it is not > operating within the Debian framework.) I don't see why this then > necessitates over a dozen threads on debian-devel -- AND why it gets to > call itself "Debian." Amen, brother. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 03:58:45 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARTmP-0002zh-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:58:45 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 535CBEBFB; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 03:58:45 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.102]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F387CEB7C for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 03:58:32 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB39wVU18425 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:58:31 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Wed Dec 3 10:58:31 2003 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:58:12 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" , discuss@server.perens.com Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages In-Reply-To: <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> Message-Id: References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2003 09:50:31.0125 (UTC) FILETIME=[E38FE050:01C3B982] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157556 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 03:58:45 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, John Goerzen wrote: > First of all. This is obviously not a Debian projects I see it clearly as Debian project and can't find the rationale why you sais that it is _obviousely_ not. > (since it is not operating within the Debian framework.) Why. If I see this right Zenaan is planning the depandencies for the meta packages he wants to build. As long as there is no debian-enterprise list created he has no other chance than using debian-devel to discuss this topics. It was the same for Debian-Jr, Debian-Med, etc and nobody thought that this whould not fit into Debian framework. > I don't see why this then > necessitates over a dozen threads on debian-devel -- AND why it gets to > call itself "Debian." Moreover, I remain unconvinced that there is any > need to split from the regular Debian framework, especially since it > seems that all you're doing is removing choices. ... or rather giving suggestions, what might fit well into Enterprise framework as we did fro children in Debian-Jr. > (Though I admit I > killfiled the earlier threads on the topic because they were too > unwieldy) Anyway: Perhaps this is the reason. > On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 02:45:51PM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > > * Office Suite - OpenOffice (there's no other near as feature complete) > > And OpenOffice is the only one that runs on only two -- yes, two -- > architectures that Debian supports. Which is a problem for Debian and not for Debian-Enterprise or any other "Custom Debian Distribution". > > * Scripting Language - Python (no one will debate this one :) > > If you think you can get every large enterprise worldwide to standardize > on a single scripting language -- much less get even ONE to do that -- > then you will surely be nominated for several nobel prizes. :) This is the only part of your mail I do completely agree with. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 04:27:49 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARUEX-0005M9-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:27:49 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 205A3EC2F; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 04:27:49 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Ulm.bund.de (Ulm.bund.de [194.95.179.208]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB0DDE9A4 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 04:27:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Ulm.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id LAA08437 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:27:42 +0100 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:23:03 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian In-Reply-To: <1070435995.1061.19.camel@kernel> Message-Id: References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <1070407951.11406.3363.camel@zen8100a> <1070435995.1061.19.camel@kernel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2003 10:15:22.0687 (UTC) FILETIME=[5C9A2CF0:01C3B986] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157557 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 04:27:49 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > In my view (as I said), it would be logical to name a further > subdivision of that product "flavor". I like this interpretation of the term flavor and it would be easily applicable for Debian-Med to flavors like: - Medical practice - Medical research - Microbiology - Dental practice - Veterinary medicine - ... > Ok. Semantics, of course, but that's what's being discussed here. :) > I just think "Custom Debian Distribution" is not a very innovative > phrase, it is too general to instantly give someone an idea of what it's > about, and on top of all, it's quite long. ACK. That's why other people invented terms like "Fedora". It just says nothing and so int can't cause false implications. It has to be defined precisely before it is a term to work with. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 04:28:00 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARUEh-0005Mk-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:27:59 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 886B3EC3A; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 04:27:56 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Augsburg.bund.de (Augsburg.bund.de [194.95.179.209]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A3FEBCD for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 04:27:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Augsburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id LAA12676 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:27:42 +0100 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:17:00 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian In-Reply-To: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> Message-Id: References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2003 10:09:19.0671 (UTC) FILETIME=[843A5470:01C3B985] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157558 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 04:27:56 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > Actually, I'd like to see the term "Custom Debian Distribution" be set > aside because a "custom" something is created each time someone modifies > an original. Debian Enterprise certainly is an original. By the time a > capable sysadmin has installed it, it will (probably) be "custom". > ("Custom Custom Debian Distribution", anyone ?) > > The term suggests that the distribution is "not-Debian", which is > unneccessary and confusing. As non native speaker and also in general I try to avoid joining stupid naming discussions. But here is the weak part of the name we have choosen which has definitely to be clarified in an announcement of those people who invented the term. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 05:24:47 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARV7f-0001jI-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 05:24:47 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 1C7E2EC92; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 05:24:47 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from pinchy.nma.fi (pinchy.nma.fi [212.226.175.124]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E27D4E9C9 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 05:24:43 -0600 (CST) Received: by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix, from userid 104) id A807DB6D8; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:24:42 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6378FB516; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:24:26 +0200 (EET) Received: from 6-allhosts (do.paniq.net [212.226.163.85]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00359B516; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:24:24 +0200 (EET) Subject: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) From: Fabian Fagerholm To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Cc: mako@bork.hampshire.edu In-Reply-To: References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-+UwUaUbROLluq1OY/xQy" Message-Id: <1070450663.1061.85.camel@kernel> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:24:24 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned-By: AMaViS-ng X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <6qn_eD.A.TSH.-fcz_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157566 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 05:24:47 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --=-+UwUaUbROLluq1OY/xQy Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 12:17, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > > The term suggests that the distribution is "not-Debian", which is > > unneccessary and confusing. > > As non native speaker and also in general I try to avoid joining stupid > naming discussions. But here is the weak part of the name we have choose= n > which has definitely to be clarified in an announcement of those people > who invented the term. If some of the people who participated in the Debcamp Custom Distribution BOF (see http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-nonprofit/News/2003/20030717) are listening, perhaps you could elaborate? (Cc'ing Mako Hill since he was referenced as one of the driving forces behind the meeting.) It might be hard, impossible and undesirable to reverse the decision to use the term. I think the term can be correctly understood if you present it as I have in some recent postings to this list: Debian is the super-project. XYZ is a Debian subproject that produces a Custom Debian Distribution with the flavors A, B and C. A subproject is easily understood: it's an organisational structure. Basically, it's a group of people working on a subset of Debian. They coordinate via a web site and in some cases have a special mailing list. Some subprojects create Custom Debian Distributions for their particular area of interest. Upon installation of the Custom Debian Distribution, you can select between a number of flavors that set some defaults to suit a particular use. More ideas? Perhaps some of this could be intergrated into the Debian Subproject Howto as soon as some degree of consensus has been reached. (I can't find it right now with people.d.o being inaccessible.) --=20 Fabian Fagerholm --=-+UwUaUbROLluq1OY/xQy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA/zcfn76VUNpZBmeIRAjCxAJ4u71Eh1ztQ+fxVYxqYKoO/hlzsJgCfeSEK ePY8CzPf1Nd2v07UaM5+8Kw= =EY2l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-+UwUaUbROLluq1OY/xQy-- From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 06:56:42 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARWYc-0002gm-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 06:56:42 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 62B02EC08; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 06:56:41 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.102]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE902ECC2 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 06:56:31 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB3CuU403892 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:56:30 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Wed Dec 3 13:56:30 2003 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:56:07 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) In-Reply-To: <1070450663.1061.85.camel@kernel> Message-Id: References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <1070450663.1061.85.camel@kernel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2003 12:48:26.0921 (UTC) FILETIME=[BED51190:01C3B99B] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157577 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 06:56:41 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > It might be hard, impossible and undesirable to reverse the decision to > use the term. Exactly. > I think the term can be correctly understood if you > present it as I have in some recent postings to this list: > > Debian is the super-project. > XYZ is a Debian subproject > that produces a Custom Debian Distribution > with the flavors A, B and C. > > A subproject is easily understood: it's an organisational structure. > Basically, it's a group of people working on a subset of Debian. They > coordinate via a web site and in some cases have a special mailing list. > > Some subprojects create Custom Debian Distributions for their particular > area of interest. Upon installation of the Custom Debian Distribution, > you can select between a number of flavors that set some defaults to > suit a particular use. Thanks for this clarifying words. > More ideas? Perhaps some of this could be intergrated into the Debian > Subproject Howto as soon as some degree of consensus has been reached. > (I can't find it right now with people.d.o being inaccessible.) You might try apt-get {source,install} subproject-howto Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 08:02:26 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARXaE-0008Gf-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:02:26 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 3D61DEC31; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:02:21 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from micha.hampshire.edu (micha.hampshire.edu [192.101.188.235]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56DABE95F for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:02:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha ([127.0.0.1] helo=kamna ident=mako) by micha.hampshire.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARXa3-0000U6-00 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 09:02:16 -0500 Received: from mako by kamna with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARXa2-0001Tq-00 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:02:14 +0100 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:02:14 +0100 From: "Benj. Mako Hill" To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Message-ID: <20031203140214.GC800@kamna> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <1070450663.1061.85.camel@kernel> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DIOMP1UsTsWJauNi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1070450663.1061.85.camel@kernel> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157587 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:02:21 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --DIOMP1UsTsWJauNi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 01:24:24PM +0200, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > If some of the people who participated in the Debcamp Custom > Distribution BOF (see > http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-nonprofit/News/2003/20030717) are > listening, perhaps you could elaborate? (Cc'ing Mako Hill since he > was referenced as one of the driving forces behind the meeting.) >=20 > It might be hard, impossible and undesirable to reverse the decision to > use the term. I think the term can be correctly understood if you > present it as I have in some recent postings to this list: >=20 > Debian is the super-project. > XYZ is a Debian subproject > that produces a Custom Debian Distribution > with the flavors A, B and C. Right. Your other posts seems well informed. Subprojects is already defined for us (see http://www.debian.org/devel/ for an example of one place). Debian-NP is clearly a subproject as is Debian-Med and the IPv6 project. If you apt-get install the subproject-howto you will get something talking *only* about creating a custom Debian-distribution -- not about creating a subproject for any other sort of work. The folks at the BOF saw a real lack of interaction between the people making custom distributions and we attributed this, in part, to the fact that we didn't have a single concept around which identify and say, "yeah, that person is doing the same thing as me, we should work together." The flavors people were not working with the metadistros people and the subproject people where on their own. We thought "Custom Debian Distribution" (and a [custom] tag in emails to -devel until a list is created) both referenced our relationship to Debian (we're inside) and described what we were trying to do in a way that was not so restrictive that it couldn't refer to multiple technologies but not so broad that it would apply to projects with very different types of goals. I think we left with the idea that "flavors" or "metadistros" and the like may still describe *technologies* or methods which one could use to achieve a Custom Distro. I think this is in line with what AJ, yourself, and others have said -- which is nice. :) > More ideas? Perhaps some of this could be intergrated into the Debian > Subproject Howto as soon as some degree of consensus has been reached. > (I can't find it right now with people.d.o being inaccessible.) I think it absolutely should. I also think the HOWTO should be renamed or expanded in scope to bring it into alignment with the consensus that seems to be coalescing around these issues. Regards, Mako --=20 Benjamin Mako Hill mako@debian.org http://mako.yukidoke.org/ --DIOMP1UsTsWJauNi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/zezmic1LIWB1WeYRAiP9AKCr2BI0yijnP9txLVzpGGvevBWIZwCg24Er v2/oc4V5Mv0euWLpFOI6ugE= =AcHN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DIOMP1UsTsWJauNi-- From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 09:07:21 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARYb2-0005Uw-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 09:07:20 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id CA689ED75; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:07:20 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp.istop.com (dci.doncaster.on.ca [66.11.168.194]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96509ED2F for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:07:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from drcrane.tor.istop.com (drcrane.tor.istop.com [66.11.182.49]) by smtp.istop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2BD369BE for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:07:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drcrane.tor.istop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3FF16ED for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:07:14 -0500 (EST) From: Fraser Campbell To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:07:14 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> <20031201203357.GE1952@wookimus.net> <20031202000529.GB850@cs.unibo.it> In-Reply-To: <20031202000529.GB850@cs.unibo.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312031007.14403.fraser@wehave.net> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157592 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:07:20 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On December 1, 2003 07:05 pm, Enrico Zini wrote: > On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 02:33:57PM -0600, Chad Walstrom wrote: > > > - GNU ERP software project ?name? > > > > GNU Enterprise (gnue) http://www.gnue.org/ > > I've just learnt of Cubit from South Africa: http://www.cubit.co.za/ Is it free software? They don't seem to provide a link to the full text of their license, it sounds free according to their license summary but I also see the statement "Cubit has only a very small yearly license fee and no purchase cost". -- Fraser Campbell http://www.wehave.net/ Georgetown, Ontario, Canada Debian GNU/Linux From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 13:06:33 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARbFb-0008M5-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 11:57:23 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 480FCEBB9; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:57:22 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69163E9AC for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:57:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARbFM-0005Rf-00 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:57:08 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sea.gmane.org ([80.91.224.252]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARbFL-0005RX-00 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:57:07 +0100 Received: from news by sea.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARbFL-0007dE-00 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:57:07 +0100 From: Andres Salomon Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - policies Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:57:07 -0500 Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <1070422374.23088.190.camel@zen8100a> <1070423562.23088.227.camel@zen8100a> <1070423719.23088.230.camel@zen8100a> <1070424069.22840.243.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity. (Debian GNU/Linux)) Sender: news X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157603 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:57:22 -0600 (CST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:01:09 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > (Really should read ahead further ... here are more, and all laid out > together) >=20 > * DFSG Free Software only (I know this one will get debated, but this i= s > the whole point of Debian Enterprise - if you want proprietary software= , > go buy Red Hat or SUSE/Novell). >=20 This goes without saying. If it's under the Debian name, it should compl= y w/ the various Debian policies. > * Specifically targetting For-Profit entities (vs Debian-NP) >=20 Is this really a goal? While we're not specifically targeting non-profit entities, we're not going to exclude them, either; especially if they hav= e infrastructure similar to a standard for-profit company. Non-profits nee= d their oracle, too. ;) > * 100% Debian (Social Contract, DFSG, policies + procedures) >=20 > * LSB compliance I think LSB compliance is one of the most important things listed (aside from standard stuff like policy compliance). We want commercial software vendors to supply binaries that adhere to the LSB; whether distributed in deb, rpm, or tarball format. Furthermore, we want to convince commercial software vendors that working within the LSB is more important than working within Debian. A company may certify their software to work w/ DE (or a DE flavor); we should convince them to certify software to work w/ all LSB-compliant distributions. This allows companies to not limit themselves to DE, or a subset of DE flavors, but all of Debian (and other LSB-compliant distributions). >=20 > * "Official" statement as to support of Freedesktop.org standards >=20 > * Common Criteria ("not until we're big enough") >=20 > * OpenCOE ("the COE folks had to wedge _apt_ into Red Hat to get it to > work to their satisfaction") >=20 > * "we have a FIPS 140 certification for OpenSSL" >=20 > * Other standards ?? From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 13:32:37 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARbx2-0004V2-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:42:16 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 741F0EDF3; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:42:16 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from rover24.cmt (unknown [217.110.227.22]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67DC6E952 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 03:27:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from scooby.cmt (scooby [192.168.60.70]) by rover24.cmt (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3EFC7CA8 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:27:11 +0100 (CET) Received: by scooby.cmt (Postfix, from userid 1050) id 876133B7AD; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:27:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages From: Chris Halls To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" In-Reply-To: <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070443633.32565.4.camel@scooby.cmt> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:27:13 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <-WjA5D.A.S3H.H6iz_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157615 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:42:16 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 05:49, John Goerzen wrote: > > * Office Suite - OpenOffice (there's no other near as feature complete) > > And OpenOffice is the only one that runs on only two -- yes, two -- > architectures that Debian supports. You missed two. OOo is available on i386, powerpc, sparc and s390. Chris From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 13:43:32 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARct5-00042L-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:42:15 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4EB33E8FC; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:42:15 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from radix.cryptio.net (radix.cryptio.net [199.181.107.213]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF495E8ED for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:41:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from radix.cryptio.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by radix.cryptio.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hB3Jfw4B018941 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:41:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ferlatte@cryptio.net) Received: (from ferlatte@localhost) by radix.cryptio.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hB3JfwDf018940; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:41:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ferlatte@cryptio.net) X-Authentication-Warning: radix.cryptio.net: ferlatte set sender to ferlatte@cryptio.net using -f Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:41:58 -0800 From: Mark Ferlatte To: Zenaan Harkness Cc: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" , discuss@server.perens.com Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - flavors Message-ID: <20031203194158.GC13358@radix.cryptio.net> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Ferlatte , Zenaan Harkness , "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" , discuss@server.perens.com References: <1070422759.23088.203.camel@zen8100a> <1070423898.23088.238.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hYooF8G/hrfVAmum" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1070423898.23088.238.camel@zen8100a> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157632 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:42:15 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --hYooF8G/hrfVAmum Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zenaan Harkness said on Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 02:58:18PM +1100: > Flavours (and sub-flavours/ tasks/ yadda) is as good a place to start as > any. So here are some proposed flavours: >=20 > - Enterprise (base packages and more "neutral" config) > - Enterprise Desktop - with sub-flavours of: > - Secretary Desktop > - Presentation Client (OO Presenter, multimedia, flash) > - Developer Desktop (all build-depends of all flavours, as a start) >=20 > - Enterprise Fileserver > - Enterprise Webserver > - Enterprise Auth Server > - Enterprise Departmental Server (combines File, Web + Auth) >=20 > - Enterprise Firewall > - Enterprise SCM Server > - Enterprise Router >=20 > - Enterprise Thin Client Something to keep in mind that most of the above could be handled by exactly the same software loadout. For example: There is no difference between Desktop, Fileserver, Webserver, Auth Server loadouts that matters; you just turn off the services by default and let the customization process turn on the services that matter for that role. It doesn't matter if the webserver has openoffice installed; it's ju= st a few bits on disk. It might be worth reading http://www.infrastructures.org/papers/bootstrap/bootstrap.html before getti= ng flavour happy. M --hYooF8G/hrfVAmum Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/zjyGOtZWu2tc1lARAgmBAJ9rQ0OROYl8tl1wmsNPE88l/JRusQCfRm1d JtRe3qSZUwhzHpIQf8LD3QQ= =IZRS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hYooF8G/hrfVAmum-- From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 13:47:01 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARcWd-0000ZK-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:19:03 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 3B54FE933; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:19:00 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from kempelen.iit.bme.hu (kempelen.iit.bme.hu [152.66.241.120]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC1FE96B for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 05:44:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (vi@localhost) by kempelen.iit.bme.hu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.6) with SMTP id hB3BiHG02842 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:44:18 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:44:17 +0100 (MET) From: VEROK Istvan To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157626 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:19:00 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > > > In my view (as I said), it would be logical to name a further > > subdivision of that product "flavor". > I like this interpretation of the term flavor and it would be easily > applicable for Debian-Med to flavors like: > - Medical practice > - Medical research [snip] Just a suggestion on naming: Due to the unclear connotations, there is a great deal of confusion over the terms "internal project", "subproject", "flavor", "custom Debian distribution" and the like. To clarify my own thinking, I started using just "subset" and "mutation" instead. To my mind, the difference is whether a given collection of packages aims to be straightforwardly upgradable to a full Debian (IOW, whether it can peacefully coexist with any number of packages from Debian proper). If yes, it's a subset. If no, it's a mutation. Debian-Jr, Debian-NP, Debian-Lex, Debian-Med are all subsets. Adamantix and Knoppix are mutations. Subsets can also have subsets, or a subset may even come from the confluence of other subsets, so there is no need to name one level a "custom Debian distro" and another level a "flavor". My EUR 0.02, Istvan From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 14:05:33 2003 Return-path: Received: from gluck.debian.org [192.25.206.10] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARRr5-0000sG-02; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 01:55:27 -0600 Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by gluck.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARRJJ-0005oA-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:20:33 -0700 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 2F6AAED6A; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 01:20:28 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from pinchy.nma.fi (pinchy.nma.fi [212.226.175.124]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B138DED49 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 01:20:15 -0600 (CST) Received: by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix, from userid 104) id 9B8C5B6C8; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:20:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26164B6AB for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:19:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from 6-allhosts (do.paniq.net [212.226.163.85]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCAB8B653 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:19:56 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian From: Fabian Fagerholm To: Debian Devel In-Reply-To: <1070407951.11406.3363.camel@zen8100a> References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <1070407951.11406.3363.camel@zen8100a> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-VqOZfz9x6R5eX3i0CEtN" Message-Id: <1070435995.1061.19.camel@kernel> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 09:19:56 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned-By: AMaViS-ng X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <-_Sud.A.ulB.86Yz_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157539 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 01:20:28 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --=-VqOZfz9x6R5eX3i0CEtN Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 01:32, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > > Debian is the super-project. > > Debian Enterprise is a Debian Subproject that creates > > a Custom Debian Distribution, >=20 > Subproject and custom debian distribution, here, are the same thing. No > point "officially" having two terms. CDD is a term that I think is > intended to be a little more expansive than subproject, so I think > that's more applicable for this "level" of naming... When the term "Custom Debian Distribution" was chosen, the rationale was that there is a need to differentiate between subprojects that aim to create a special version of Debian, and subprojects that do other things, such as IPV6 or the technical committee. So, I interpret that as meaning that a subproject is an abstract, organisational thing (how it manifests itself is another matter) and a Custom Debian Distribution is the concrete product put together by a subproject. In my view (as I said), it would be logical to name a further subdivision of that product "flavor". > Correct depending on your view. But it is also true that Debian > GNU/Linux is an original, of which Debian Enterprise is a customization > - and this is the useful distinction in this case. Ok. Semantics, of course, but that's what's being discussed here. :) I just think "Custom Debian Distribution" is not a very innovative phrase, it is too general to instantly give someone an idea of what it's about, and on top of all, it's quite long. Compare with "package pool" -- anyone with decent knowledge of the English language, and who knows what a "package" is, will instantly see the idea. I think "flavor" fits into the same category. --=20 Fabian Fagerholm --=-VqOZfz9x6R5eX3i0CEtN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA/zY6b76VUNpZBmeIRAoVrAJ9RgTAhz7hf3p8mqcOZ8CLIwQcIBwCcDno0 8LccLsNSVU7i/E0Mwn0r+wk= =SZqH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-VqOZfz9x6R5eX3i0CEtN-- From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 14:08:52 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARb1N-0005iq-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 11:42:41 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id B5324ECD8; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:42:41 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926A2E899 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:42:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARb1F-0005IU-00 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:42:33 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sea.gmane.org ([80.91.224.252]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARb1E-0005IL-00 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:42:32 +0100 Received: from news by sea.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARb1E-00079I-00 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:42:32 +0100 From: Andres Salomon Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:42:31 -0500 Lines: 74 Message-ID: References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity. (Debian GNU/Linux)) Sender: news X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157601 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:42:41 -0600 (CST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:45:51 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > As per the recommendations from Bruce Perens' User Linux paper > http://userlinux.com/white_paper.html, this thread is to discuss the > applications within the bounded set of Debian Enterprise/ User Linux. I think discussing the favorite applications, at this point, is a bit premature. Debian Enterprise (DE) should be concentrating on the framework that will make flavors possible. There is much that remains to= be done on the technical level (kernels, a distribution that is up-to-date enough that companies will _want_ to use it, an installer, etc). Decidin= g what applications to supply isn't of much use right now (especially given the rate of development of some; mozilla-firebird may be a good choice now, but what about when epiphany or another alternative becomes the better browser?). Remember the original goals that DE is attempting to solve.=20 Current Debian-using companies must maintain their own package backports, kernels, and so on. Deciding what browser we will default to, while possibly helping in standardization, is a long ways off. In order for DE to become useful, we must cater to companies (not the other way around).=20 Thus, we should build out the infrastructure enough so that DE, by itself= , is installable and useable. At that point, we can start worrying about what flavors will contain what software. >=20 > The bounded set will depend on the flavour. So first comes proposed > flavours (and sub-flavours/ tasks/ yadda) - see previous email/ thread. >=20 > Here are some initial (obviously debatable and incomplete) selections t= o > start out the bounded-apps conversation: >=20 > * Web Browser > - Mozilla-Firebird > I've used Mozilla, Galeon in its day, more recently Epiphany, and the > last few months Moz-Firebird. It is simply the simplest (and in my > opinion best) of the crop. >=20 > * Web Server - Apache 2.0 (let's get with the times) >=20 > * Open SSH Implementation - OpenSSH (much more active that gnu version) >=20 > * Office Suite - OpenOffice (there's no other near as feature complete) >=20 > * Scripting Language - Python (no one will debate this one :) > - I have never used, only read (plenty) about Python, and I'm not > personally too sure about this white space thing, but from what I hear > about it (quite consistently) eventually feeling more "natural" than > anything else, I am inclined to believe this really is the case. My > experience with Java (after C/C++) was sort of like that, and if Python > is more so, then I think it could be closest to the next VB replacement= . > Some client of some service provider may however commission completion > of VB clone, or VB# or whatever. > - MONO (go-mono.org/net/com?) is from the sound of it may be a year > away, but perhaps that's a reasonable time frame, if we were to go with > .NET/MONO for scripting. > - Java - I think this is the only other reasonable alternative, and > should perhaps be the first choice (due to being as entrenched as it is > in middleware/ corporate) - there are a few Free Software > implementations, including one fully integrated with GCC toolchain > (which I think is just too sweet) - namely gcj. >=20 > * Mail Server - Postfix (scales more than exim, not as restrictive to > admiinister as qmail). >=20 > * Package format (had you going there - obviously DEBs!) >=20 > Please add to the list as per your personal exprience dictates. >=20 > Thanks > Zenaan From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 15:24:53 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARcbJ-0001Ev-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:23:53 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id CECFEEE9C; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:23:52 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 014ACE889 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 06:02:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from 10.0.11.93 cobaco@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.133.193.10] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.45 $ on Novell NetWare via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Wed, 03 Dec 2003 05:02:33 -0700 From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:01:20 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <1070450663.1061.85.camel@kernel> In-Reply-To: <1070450663.1061.85.camel@kernel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312031301.25168.cobaco@linux.be> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157627 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:23:52 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-12-03 12:24, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 12:17, Andreas Tille wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > > > The term suggests that the distribution is "not-Debian", which is > > > unneccessary and confusing. > > > > As non native speaker and also in general I try to avoid joining stupid > > naming discussions. But here is the weak part of the name we have > > choosen which has definitely to be clarified in an announcement of those > > people who invented the term. > > If some of the people who participated in the Debcamp Custom > Distribution BOF (see > http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-nonprofit/News/2003/20030717) are > listening, perhaps you could elaborate? (Cc'ing Mako Hill since he was > referenced as one of the driving forces behind the meeting.) hm, I've added a definition to the wiki: A Custom Debian Distribution (CDD) is a version of Debian that is tailore= d =20 for a particular situation/target group out-of-the-box.=20 Any changes necessary to Debian to support this particular situation/targ= et =20 group arge merged back into Debian whenever possible, improving Debian as= a =20 whole. =2D --=20 Cheers, cobaco =20 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/zdCV5ihPJ4ZiSrsRAsbLAJ9DdvJr/UQyZlIA0hAQgfu9b/gdowCglNOb vJDtVz2E2aHumHDpKmxSjHc=3D =3DCIIJ =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 15:55:40 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARe5Z-0000zq-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:59:13 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 3A8D0EF83; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:59:12 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.101]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E85CE943 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:58:57 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB3Kwuf09419 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:58:56 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Wed Dec 3 21:58:56 2003 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:58:42 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) In-Reply-To: <200312031301.25168.cobaco@linux.be> Message-Id: References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <1070450663.1061.85.camel@kernel> <200312031301.25168.cobaco@linux.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2003 20:51:01.0953 (UTC) FILETIME=[29605310:01C3B9DF] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157640 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:59:12 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, cobaco wrote: > hm, I've added a definition to the wiki: > > A Custom Debian Distribution (CDD) is a version of Debian that is tailored I do not like the term "version". I'd prefer a "subset of Debian". You get a CDD together with main but you get a helping hand to cope with the sheer mass. > for a particular situation/target group out-of-the-box. > > Any changes necessary to Debian to support this particular situation/target > group arge merged back into Debian whenever possible, improving Debian as a > whole. There are no changes to Debian, because CDDs reside completely in main / testing /unstable as any other package. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 16:28:11 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARdzM-0007us-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:52:48 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 66DE9EF64; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:52:48 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Ulm.bund.de (Ulm.bund.de [194.95.179.208]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942F6EF55 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:52:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Ulm.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id VAA08987 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:52:24 +0100 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:52:18 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers , discuss@server.perens.com Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages In-Reply-To: <20031203191803.GA28091@complete.org> Message-Id: References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> <20031203191803.GA28091@complete.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2003 20:44:37.0625 (UTC) FILETIME=[444C8690:01C3B9DE] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <8heSKD.A.EWG.f0kz_@murphy> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157636 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:52:48 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, John Goerzen wrote: > > I see it clearly as Debian project and can't find the rationale why > > you sais that it is _obviousely_ not. > > It's not hosted on Debian machines. Nobody designated it ats a project. > It doesn't use our BTS, it doesn't use our mailing lists, etc. It seems > they are aiming at having their own separate repository, packages, etc. Perhaps you noticed that a) currently some services of Debian are delayed so there was no chance to ask for this stuff since two weeks b) Zenaan is not yet a developer and might be unsure how to works this out (might need some help?) c) For instance there is DeMuDi which is busy to reintegrate their backport and thus there is no reason to push back people who start outside. > > Which is a problem for Debian and not for Debian-Enterprise or any other > > "Custom Debian Distribution". > That's silly. If your Custom Debian Distribution is "Fast AlphaLinux", > and you specifiy OpenOffice -- which doesn't work on that platform -- > it's your problem too. Please read the relevant threads about the term "Custom Debian Distribution". > Debian Enterprise will have to support 64-bit platforms, which > OpenOffice doesn't. I keep my opinion that it is Debian's problem or more precisely the problem of the maintainers of a package if not all architectures are supported by a certain software. _Debian_ want's to support 11 architectures, so it is a Debian problem. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 18:04:12 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AReBL-0002Dr-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:05:11 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 92595EFAA; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:04:53 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from bettong.westnet.com.au (bettong.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.8]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0D8EF57 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:04:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (bettong [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945D260021 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 05:04:43 +0800 (WST) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [202.173.186.246]) by bettong.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D1E5FE1C for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 05:04:42 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) From: "David Palmer." Reply-To: katipo@bearfish.com To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <200312031301.25168.cobaco@linux.be> References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <1070450663.1061.85.camel@kernel> <200312031301.25168.cobaco@linux.be> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070485863.18841.45.camel@Godzone> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 04 Dec 2003 05:11:03 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157642 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:04:53 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 20:01, cobaco wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 2003-12-03 12:24, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > > On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 12:17, Andreas Tille wrote: > > > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > > > > The term suggests that the distribution is "not-Debian", which is > > > > unneccessary and confusing. > > > > > > As non native speaker and also in general I try to avoid joining stupid > > > naming discussions. But here is the weak part of the name we have > > > choosen which has definitely to be clarified in an announcement of those > > > people who invented the term. > > > > If some of the people who participated in the Debcamp Custom > > Distribution BOF (see > > http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-nonprofit/News/2003/20030717) are > > listening, perhaps you could elaborate? (Cc'ing Mako Hill since he was > > referenced as one of the driving forces behind the meeting.) > > hm, I've added a definition to the wiki: > > A Custom Debian Distribution (CDD) is a version of Debian that is tailored > for a particular situation/target group out-of-the-box. > > Any changes necessary to Debian to support this particular situation/target > group arge merged back into Debian whenever possible, improving Debian as a > whole. > Exactly! Regards, David. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 18:49:34 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARe7z-0001UA-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:01:43 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id C9C77EF7D; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:01:39 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from bettong.westnet.com.au (bettong.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.8]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F97E90E for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:01:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (bettong [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE075FDA8 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 05:01:18 +0800 (WST) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [202.173.186.246]) by bettong.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B16A85FE5E for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 05:01:17 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages From: "David Palmer." Reply-To: katipo@bearfish.com To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <20031203191803.GA28091@complete.org> References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> <20031203191803.GA28091@complete.org> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070485648.11845.43.camel@Godzone> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 04 Dec 2003 05:07:29 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <-oGILC.A.UXB.z8kz_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157641 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:01:39 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 03:18, John Goerzen wrote: > On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 10:58:12AM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, John Goerzen wrote: > > > > > First of all. This is obviously not a Debian projects > > I see it clearly as Debian project and can't find the rationale why > > you sais that it is _obviousely_ not. > > It's not hosted on Debian machines. Nobody designated it ats a project. > It doesn't use our BTS, it doesn't use our mailing lists, etc. It seems > they are aiming at having their own separate repository, packages, etc. Nothing is specified as yet. The only thing that has been specified are the formation of a couple of threads on devel for initial discussion. Given the recent and ongoing scenario, although separate repositories have not been specified, this might not be a bad thing. Libranet, a commercial Debian-based distro, feeds off Debian repositories, but is now creating their own to cater for their own user base in anticipation of possible future further disruptions. Dependent on capacity, I don't think that the Danzig boys would mind Debian users pointing to their facility in times of need. I am familiar with their attitude. I note also that Adamantix developers, when a present priority project reaches completion, have expressed a willingness to commit in the process of assisting with Pax incorporation into the Debian kernel. This mental attitude is more indicative of the open source mindset to my way of thinking, than the mindset coming from those few personalities here that are possessed by a parochial, insular mentality, that if it didn't exist, LSB would probably already be a reality without having the need for a separate organization to be founded to create it. Where would Microsoft be then? As it is, they're perfectly poised incorporate Linux:- http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1400161,00.asp Laughable? At a recent Comdex, a high percentage of visitors to the KDE booth were Microsoft employees, and they wanted to know everything about how it worked! I believe there was an attempt recently, nearly successful, at installing a backdoor into the kernel. How about the recent attack? Was anything successfully installed? The suggestion that it was just a game by a couple of script kiddies to prove that they could do it is an insult to anybodies' intelligence. Look around and you'll see other signs. > > > And OpenOffice is the only one that runs on only two -- yes, two -- > > > architectures that Debian supports. > > Which is a problem for Debian and not for Debian-Enterprise or any other > > "Custom Debian Distribution". > > That's silly. If your Custom Debian Distribution is "Fast AlphaLinux", > and you specifiy OpenOffice -- which doesn't work on that platform -- > it's your problem too. > > Debian Enterprise will have to support 64-bit platforms, which > OpenOffice doesn't. The present Debian AMD 64Bit SMP project is Biarch supporting both 64 and 32 bit apps for this reason. Regards, David. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Dec 3 19:20:35 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARcVw-0000SU-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:18:20 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 76C9AED25; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:18:16 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from gatekeeper.elmer.external.excelhustler.com (gatekeeper.excelhustler.com [68.99.114.105]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0E0EE98 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:18:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (unknown [192.168.0.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client CN "chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com", Issuer "excelhustler.com" (verified OK)) by gatekeeper.elmer.external.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5512BE0115; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:18:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1D15C00D; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:18:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from wile.internal.excelhustler.com (wile.internal.excelhustler.com [192.168.1.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038205C009; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:18:04 -0600 (CST) Received: by wile.internal.excelhustler.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C8F338B9A; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:18:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:18:03 -0600 From: John Goerzen To: Andreas Tille Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, discuss@server.perens.com Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages Message-ID: <20031203191803.GA28091@complete.org> References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanned-By: clamscan at chatterbox.elmer.internal.excelhustler.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157625 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:18:16 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 10:58:12AM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, John Goerzen wrote: > > > First of all. This is obviously not a Debian projects > I see it clearly as Debian project and can't find the rationale why > you sais that it is _obviousely_ not. It's not hosted on Debian machines. Nobody designated it ats a project. It doesn't use our BTS, it doesn't use our mailing lists, etc. It seems they are aiming at having their own separate repository, packages, etc. > > And OpenOffice is the only one that runs on only two -- yes, two -- > > architectures that Debian supports. > Which is a problem for Debian and not for Debian-Enterprise or any other > "Custom Debian Distribution". That's silly. If your Custom Debian Distribution is "Fast AlphaLinux", and you specifiy OpenOffice -- which doesn't work on that platform -- it's your problem too. Debian Enterprise will have to support 64-bit platforms, which OpenOffice doesn't. From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 00:27:13 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARmuE-0006b5-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:24:06 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 08450F395; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:21:12 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from master.debian.org (master.debian.org [146.82.138.7]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58614F3B1 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:19:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from grunt25.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.145] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARmUe-0004hI-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:57:41 -0600 Received: from p382-tnt9.syd.ihug.com.au [203.173.158.3] by grunt25.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARmPm-0003p1-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:52:38 +1100 Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070517109.23088.955.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:51:50 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157703 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:21:12 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 04:42, Andres Salomon wrote: > On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:45:51 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > > > As per the recommendations from Bruce Perens' User Linux paper > > http://userlinux.com/white_paper.html, this thread is to discuss the > > applications within the bounded set of Debian Enterprise/ User Linux. > > I think discussing the favorite applications, at this point, is a bit > premature. Debian Enterprise (DE) should be concentrating on the > framework that will make flavors possible. There is much that remains to be > done on the technical level (kernels, a distribution that is up-to-date > enough that companies will _want_ to use it, an installer, etc). Deciding > what applications to supply isn't of much use right now (especially given > the rate of development of some; mozilla-firebird may be a good choice > now, but what about when epiphany or another alternative becomes the > better browser?). > > Remember the original goals that DE is attempting to solve. > Current Debian-using companies must maintain their own package backports, > kernels, and so on. Deciding what browser we will default to, while > possibly helping in standardization, is a long ways off. In order for DE > to become useful, we must cater to companies (not the other way around). > Thus, we should build out the infrastructure enough so that DE, by itself, > is installable and useable. At that point, we can start worrying about > what flavors will contain what software. Good points. I wholly agree. regards zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://soulsound.net/ * PGP Key: http://soulsound.net/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 00:38:15 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARmxl-0006zU-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:27:45 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 1FAF2F3F9; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:22:33 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from master.debian.org (master.debian.org [146.82.138.7]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D87F3D3 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:19:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from bettong.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.8] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARmGd-0003g3-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:43:12 -0600 Received: from localhost (bettong [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BC76097E; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:38:06 +0800 (WST) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [202.173.186.246]) by bettong.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CEBE60288; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:38:03 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages From: "David Palmer." Reply-To: katipo@bearfish.com To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Cc: katipo@bearfish.com In-Reply-To: <200312041004.23535.russell@coker.com.au> References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <20031203191803.GA28091@complete.org> <1070485648.11845.43.camel@Godzone> <200312041004.23535.russell@coker.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070516676.26963.37.camel@Godzone> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 04 Dec 2003 13:44:37 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_9_21 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157704 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:22:33 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 07:04, Russell Coker wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:07, "David Palmer." wrote: > > I note also that Adamantix developers, when a present priority project > > reaches completion, have expressed a willingness to commit in the > > process of assisting with Pax incorporation into the Debian kernel. > > Please point out where the Adamantix developers expressed a willingness to > help in any way. Hello Russell, I searched the Debian-devel archive for the exchanges I read myself, but do you think that I could find them? No way! They must be there somewhere, but time is short, so I grabbed this off the Adamantix site. I think that it adequately displays Peter Bussers' attitude. But if you need more, when I have more time I wil conduct a more thorough search, and even ask Peter for verification if that is what is required. Hi! I got some replies to debian-devel Cc:-ed from people who said that they wanted to have a kernel-patch package for PaX. After that, I got the following message: ----- Forwarded message from Javier Fern?ndez-Sanguino Pe?a ----- From: Javier Fern?ndez-Sanguino Pe?a To: Peter Busser Cc: debian-devel(at)lists.debian.org Subject: Re: exec-shield (maybe ITP kernel-patch-exec-shield) On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 12:20:43PM +0100, Peter Busser wrote:[...] Just so we move forward, I have packaged today a kernel-patch-package which seems to apply as expected with 'make-kpackage' based on the changes you have introduced to the kernel_2.4.21_2.4.21-5 package developed by Herbert Xu. I've sent the ITP (just in case somebody wants to comment or pre-test it) and will upload it soo to an upload queue. I guess that the rsbac userspace would need to be included in Debian too in order for this patch to be useful for Debian users at all, am I correct? I'm going to send also the paxtest package you developed in order for people to test PaX (and exec-shield's) functionality and decide for themselves. I will first write a manpage for it (as mandated per policy) though. Regards Javi ----- End forwarded message ----- I'm really happy to receive some positive reactions from Debian related people. And I am even more happy to see that Javi is willing to help getting this stuff in Debian. That does not mean that Adamantix will be obsolete soon, integrating it in Debian will take time. And there are conflicting interests here (exec-shield, SELinux and stackguard in the future) that might slow down or stop integration in Debian (fortunately RSBAC and SELinux can live together in 2.6). People will find ways around RSBAC, SSP, PaX and whatever is decided to add next. I suspect that the number of backdoor attempts will increase as soon as cracking systems becomes harder. Therefore the road to a really high security system is a long one. We are still at the beginning of that journey. Groetjes, Peter Busser[...] From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 00:49:22 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARmuq-0006eI-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:24:44 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4F1CBF44B; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:23:43 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from master.debian.org (master.debian.org [146.82.138.7]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C18F3DF for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:22:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from grunt21.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.141] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARm2W-0001Yv-00; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:28:37 -0600 Received: from p382-tnt9.syd.ihug.com.au [203.173.158.3] by grunt21.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARlxe-0001Ri-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:23:35 +1100 Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070515366.23088.951.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:22:46 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157705 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:23:43 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 22:44, VEROK Istvan wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Andreas Tille wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > > > > > In my view (as I said), it would be logical to name a further > > > subdivision of that product "flavor". > > I like this interpretation of the term flavor and it would be easily > > applicable for Debian-Med to flavors like: > > - Medical practice > > - Medical research > [snip] > > Just a suggestion on naming: > > Due to the unclear connotations, there is a great deal of confusion over > the terms "internal project", "subproject", "flavor", "custom Debian > distribution" and the like. To clarify my own thinking, I started using > just "subset" and "mutation" instead. Basically, any new term we choose will not seem quite right to someone. It is a matter of deciding on suitable terminology and vigorously defining it, and then having enough people say "that's good enough, I'll use it". If you've been using these terms in your head for a while, they may well make more sense to you than these other "newer" terms. Then the more we use it, the more it will make perfect sense. Of course it should make as much sense to start with... If you haven't seen it, perhaps the CustomDebian wiki will be useful: http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?CustomDebian On "mutation" - sorry, I don't like this one. on "subset": ============ The package sets produced by Debian subprojects, eg. Debian JR, Debian Med, etc, are not always strictly subsets of Debian - they produce if nothing else an additional website but also additional packages (sometimes initially separate from Debian, like Knoppix), and also customized (eg. desktop) configurations that (so far) have been largely outside of Debian. So we need a different term (eg. Customization, or Custom Debian Distribution). Some subprojects may (initially or eventually, eg. Debian Enterprise) simply provide recommendations for packages to install - to help particular end users "navigate" the sheer volume of Debian packages (perhaps as a "Task" package). You could consider such recommendations as a Debian subset. It's a good term for that actually, at least in so far as it refers to a subset of packages. The terms flavor, subset, and possibly metadistro overlap here. Other subprojects (eg. Debix/Knoppix) may be proving grounds for new types of technology (bootable and live cds) that are eventually merged back into Debian proper (to become "internal" projects, but that distinction may not be so useful). But before merging, such subproject package sets are not a subset of Debian. And some subprojects may not produce or recommend any packages, serving non-technical functions. (examples anyone?) cheers zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/ * PGP Key: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~zenaan/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 01:56:24 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARoAr-0007Cr-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:45:21 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 9B284ED5D; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 01:45:19 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from micha.hampshire.edu (micha.hampshire.edu [192.101.188.235]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA2FEC7A for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 01:45:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha ([127.0.0.1] helo=kamna ident=mako) by micha.hampshire.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARoAj-0008Ho-00 for ; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 02:45:13 -0500 Received: from mako by kamna with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARo9o-0000Cc-00 for ; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 08:44:16 +0100 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:44:16 +0100 From: "Benj. Mako Hill" To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages Message-ID: <20031204074416.GL635@kamna> Mail-Followup-To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dpynvXbW/eW9Tpc3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <74PTLB.A.76E.PYuz_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157711 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 01:45:19 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --dpynvXbW/eW9Tpc3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 10:49:20PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote: > If you think you can get every large enterprise worldwide to standardize > on a single scripting language -- much less get even ONE to do that -- > then you will surely be nominated for several nobel prizes. Rather, the most you'll get is dismissive comments on mailing lists for *thinking* it. Fame and glory happen when you actual *do* it. In any case, picking a language to standarize upon within a subproject seems sensible although forcing this on users is hardly the Debian Way or likely to be a very productive experience. It's unclear from the original message which one is being advocated here but I'll assume it's the former. :) Regards, Mako --=20 Benjamin Mako Hill mako@debian.org http://mako.yukidoke.org/ --dpynvXbW/eW9Tpc3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/zuXQic1LIWB1WeYRAok2AKCs2raXxfI6oufFFq3YRRgOKj2Y6wCfdCYS kwyP1V0agA5xcg4J/MeFzw0= =1USc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dpynvXbW/eW9Tpc3-- From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 02:44:20 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARono-0001xK-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 02:25:36 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id BC0D8EC8A; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 02:25:35 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from pinchy.nma.fi (pinchy.nma.fi [212.226.175.124]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14645EBA0 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 02:25:33 -0600 (CST) Received: by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix, from userid 104) id A75B5B5D5; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:25:31 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B3FB48E for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:25:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from 6-allhosts (do.paniq.net [212.226.163.85]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A32B48E for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:25:14 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) From: Fabian Fagerholm To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <20031203140214.GC800@kamna> References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <1070450663.1061.85.camel@kernel> <20031203140214.GC800@kamna> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-T6U/nvYEx1WAbOWiFcmD" Message-Id: <1070526311.1045.59.camel@kernel> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:25:11 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned-By: AMaViS-ng X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157712 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 02:25:35 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --=-T6U/nvYEx1WAbOWiFcmD Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 16:02, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: > If you apt-get install the subproject-howto you will get something > talking *only* about creating a custom Debian-distribution -- not > about creating a subproject for any other sort of work. The folks at > the BOF saw a real lack of interaction between the people making > custom distributions and we attributed this, in part, to the fact that > we didn't have a single concept around which identify and say, "yeah, > that person is doing the same thing as me, we should work together." > The flavors people were not working with the metadistros people and > the subproject people where on their own. Can you say who the flavors people, the metadistros people and the subproject people were? I'd like to make contact with all of these to get more details about their respective projects and their view on this. > I think we left with the idea that "flavors" or "metadistros" and the > like may still describe *technologies* or methods which one could use > to achieve a Custom Distro. >=20 > I think this is in line with what AJ, yourself, and others have said -- > which is nice. :) Very good indeed. :) > I think it absolutely should. I also think the HOWTO should be renamed > or expanded in scope to bring it into alignment with the consensus that > seems to be coalescing around these issues. I have contacted Ben Armstrong and proposed that the scope of the HOWTO be expanded to cover all subprojects -- as the title suggests it should -- and explain the relationship of the terms "subproject", "Custom Debian Distribution" and "flavor" as defined in this thread. I want to collect knowledge and pieces of text from all who have some experience with subprojects, and work that material into the HOWTO. I will contact some subproject people shortly to get their input. Any pointers will be appreciated. Cheers, --=20 Fabian Fagerholm --=-T6U/nvYEx1WAbOWiFcmD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA/zu9n76VUNpZBmeIRAgekAJ9a+F6CFSeXOrj/2lToW26jsA5VIgCeJcCS KlLAcEK1IGw3zn2DJLflVq4= =E2AD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-T6U/nvYEx1WAbOWiFcmD-- From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 03:14:14 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARpIu-0004eD-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 02:57:44 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 8BC23EE84; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 02:57:44 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from micha.hampshire.edu (micha.hampshire.edu [192.101.188.235]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAAE6ED5D for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 02:57:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha ([127.0.0.1] helo=kamna ident=mako) by micha.hampshire.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARpIp-0000sJ-00 for ; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:57:40 -0500 Received: from mako by kamna with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARpIm-0000Me-00 for ; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 09:57:36 +0100 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:57:36 +0100 From: "Benj. Mako Hill" To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian Message-ID: <20031204085736.GP635@kamna> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Kynn+LdAwU9N+JqL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157713 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 02:57:44 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --Kynn+LdAwU9N+JqL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 12:44:17PM +0100, VEROK Istvan wrote: > Due to the unclear connotations, there is a great deal of confusion over > the terms "internal project", "subproject", "flavor", "custom Debian > distribution" and the like. To clarify my own thinking, I started using > just "subset" and "mutation" instead. I don't mean any offense to you or your terms but I think that the major source of the confusion is not the the imprecision of the terms because (as other have pointed out) all terms are imprecise. The major problem is the *number* of these terms. Adding one or two more, even with their benefits, would IMHO be counteproductive at this point. Regards, Mako --=20 Benjamin Mako Hill mako@debian.org http://mako.yukidoke.org/ --Kynn+LdAwU9N+JqL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/zvcAic1LIWB1WeYRArSIAKCRCFBFfVnhNdtkRTVzcVcTWJsMzQCeJCfQ jljXFfQysRPgvxW66DjyuiI= =utKL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Kynn+LdAwU9N+JqL-- From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 03:44:16 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARpzk-0008Mm-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:42:00 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 7DAA0EDEF; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:41:59 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.124]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF15BEBFB for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:41:49 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB49fmm19844 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:41:48 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a4.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a4.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Thu Dec 4 10:41:47 2003 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:41:33 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) In-Reply-To: <1070526311.1045.59.camel@kernel> Message-Id: References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <1070450663.1061.85.camel@kernel> <20031203140214.GC800@kamna> <1070526311.1045.59.camel@kernel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2003 09:33:51.0421 (UTC) FILETIME=[BA1AE6D0:01C3BA49] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157720 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:41:59 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > Can you say who the flavors people, the metadistros people and the > subproject people were? I'd like to make contact with all of these to > get more details about their respective projects and their view on this. Here on debian-devel. (Can you hear me? ;-) ) > I want to collect knowledge and pieces of text from all who have some > experience with subprojects, and work that material into the HOWTO. I > will contact some subproject people shortly to get their input. Any > pointers will be appreciated. Beacuse of unavailablity of people.d.o I copied the most important stuff to http://www.physik.uni-halle.de/~e2od5/cdd/200311_lux_cust/ I plan to write a written paper about the things I've said in this talk which for sure might go into the subproject howto. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 03:49:08 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARq0s-0008Ps-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:43:10 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 5D57EEDEF; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:43:10 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt25.ihug.com.au (grunt25.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.145]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8861EDA8 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:43:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from p382-tnt9.syd.ihug.com.au [203.173.158.3] by grunt25.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARq0m-000536-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:43:04 +1100 Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <1070529783.1045.73.camel@kernel> References: <1070529783.1045.73.camel@kernel> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070530935.928.996.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:42:16 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157721 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:43:10 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 20:23, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 13:44, VEROK Istvan wrote: > > Subsets can also have subsets, or a subset may even come from the > > confluence of other subsets, so there is no need to name one level a > > "custom Debian distro" and another level a "flavor". > > I'll elaborate more in a later post, but I just want to give a quick > comment here. > > In the light of the previous discussions, we have to distinguish between > an *organisational* term and a *technical* term. It's not a very sharp > distinction in some cases. For example "package pools" is organisational > in one context but it is also clearly a very technical term since it has > a concrete implementation in the archive and the package tools. > > Anyway, "flavor" is a technical term. "Custom Debian Distribution" is an > organisational term. Organisational, as in "package pool" is also organisational ?? - this is what your clear exposition of the three layers has lead us to basically agree on up to this point, and I could almost cut and paste your email into the wiki it was so clear (at least Debian parent(super) project -> CDD -> Flavor). I hope I haven't misunderstood you, zen -- Debian Enterprise: A Custom Debian Distribution: http://debian-enterprise.org/ * Homepage: http://soulsound.net/ * PGP Key: http://soulsound.net/zen.asc * Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted. From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 03:51:15 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARphr-0006cp-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:23:31 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4661DE9EC; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:23:28 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from pinchy.nma.fi (pinchy.nma.fi [212.226.175.124]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF3DE93D for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:23:23 -0600 (CST) Received: by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix, from userid 104) id D62CEB5D5; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:23:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id A55B3B48E; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:23:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from 6-allhosts (do.paniq.net [212.226.163.85]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56DCCB48E; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:23:04 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian From: Fabian Fagerholm To: VEROK Istvan Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-pUSkWrPnzkrYw7slrJrP" Message-Id: <1070529783.1045.73.camel@kernel> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:23:03 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned-By: AMaViS-ng X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157717 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:23:28 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --=-pUSkWrPnzkrYw7slrJrP Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 13:44, VEROK Istvan wrote: > Subsets can also have subsets, or a subset may even come from the > confluence of other subsets, so there is no need to name one level a > "custom Debian distro" and another level a "flavor". I'll elaborate more in a later post, but I just want to give a quick comment here. In the light of the previous discussions, we have to distinguish between an *organisational* term and a *technical* term. It's not a very sharp distinction in some cases. For example "package pools" is organisational in one context but it is also clearly a very technical term since it has a concrete implementation in the archive and the package tools. Anyway, "flavor" is a technical term. "Custom Debian Distribution" is an organisational term. So they describe different things. Exactly what, I must get back to you on that. Sorry, I have to run now, but I'll try to get back to this asap. Don't worry, the terms will be good and then we can all get back to implementing things when we have the words to communicate with. Cheers, --=20 Fabian Fagerholm --=-pUSkWrPnzkrYw7slrJrP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA/zvz376VUNpZBmeIRAnNVAKCFDj6ng749tSJ2r6lsTipWvuWsdwCfQpYh /Ez/fGDjSaClkgz8ANfWa88= =yjUc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-pUSkWrPnzkrYw7slrJrP-- From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 05:27:52 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARrSy-0001QD-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 05:16:16 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 555F6E8E1; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 05:16:16 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from kempelen.iit.bme.hu (kempelen.iit.bme.hu [152.66.241.120]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B74E8E9 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 05:00:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (vi@localhost) by kempelen.iit.bme.hu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.6) with SMTP id hB4B0aY06313 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:00:36 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:00:36 +0100 (MET) From: VEROK Istvan To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157724 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 05:16:16 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org > I don't mean any offense to you or your terms but I think that the > major source of the confusion is not the the imprecision of the terms > because (as other have pointed out) all terms are imprecise. The major > problem is the *number* of these terms. Adding one or two more, even > with their benefits, would IMHO be counteproductive at this point. Agreed. The reason I brought them up at all was that I think the other terms don't always distinguish between (to borrow Fabian Fagerholm's terms) organizational and technical categories (a "subproject" may equally mean a bunch of people and a bunch of bits). This is sometimes problematic. A particularly acute example: I'm in the middle of packaging a game called CSP. CSP stands for Combat Simulator Project -- is that a bunch of people or a bunch of bits? Project or product? To exacerbate the problem, the acronym CSP has other well-known meanings, too (Hoare's Communicating Sequential Processes come to mind immediately), so to disambiguate, I have taken to calling this game CSPSim. Icing on the cake: sometimes even the construct "CSPSim project" appears in communication, upsetting my linguistic sensibilities on each such occasion. The moral is, I guess, not to seek new terms but to use the already existing ones carefully. Cheers, Istvan PS: I don't really have anything more to add to this thread, it already starts to feel a bit like "The Life of Brian", where the People's Front of Judea prepare to attain world supremacy within the next five years: "We could sit around here all day talking, passing resolutions, making clever speeches. It's not going to shift one Roman soldier!" Just some free association on my part, no offense to anyone meant, of course. From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 06:29:59 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARs7v-0005ST-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 05:58:35 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id D3C73E8E6; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 05:58:35 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from ns.sws.net.au (ns.sws.net.au [61.95.69.3]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE39E897 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 05:58:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns.sws.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id C656B61C26; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:58:30 +1100 (EST) Received: from ns.sws.net.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ns [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25292-08; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:58:30 +1100 (EST) Received: from tsv.sws.net.au (tsv.sws.net.au [61.95.69.2]) by ns.sws.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCB961C06; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:58:30 +1100 (EST) Received: from lyta.coker.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tsv.sws.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EC392691; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:58:30 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lyta.coker.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DBE7F28F; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:58:28 +1100 (EST) From: Russell Coker Reply-To: russell@coker.com.au To: katipo@bearfish.com, "David Palmer." , debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:58:28 +1100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Cc: katipo@bearfish.com References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <200312041004.23535.russell@coker.com.au> <1070516676.26963.37.camel@Godzone> In-Reply-To: <1070516676.26963.37.camel@Godzone> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312042258.28085.russell@coker.com.au> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p5 (Debian) at sws.net.au X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157726 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 05:58:35 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:44, "David Palmer." wrote: > On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 07:04, Russell Coker wrote: > > Please point out where the Adamantix developers expressed a willingness > > to help in any way. That message was intentionally to you not the list. Now we will have another flame-war. > I searched the Debian-devel archive for the exchanges I read myself, but > do you think that I could find them? No way! > They must be there somewhere, but time is short, so I grabbed this off > the Adamantix site. > I think that it adequately displays Peter Bussers' attitude. The web site does not seem to match Peter's actions. -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/ Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 07:34:53 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARtOg-0004XG-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 07:19:58 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 62DD9E94E; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:19:53 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from bettong.westnet.com.au (bettong.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.8]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583D0EF96 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:00:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (bettong [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A9D560DE8; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:00:18 +0800 (WST) Received: from dip-202-173-179-65.wa.westnet.com.au (dip-202-173-179-65.wa.westnet.com.au [202.173.179.65]) by bettong.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17512603E3; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:00:17 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages From: David Palmer To: russell@coker.com.au Cc: katipo@bearfish.com, debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <200312042258.28085.russell@coker.com.au> References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <200312041004.23535.russell@coker.com.au> <1070516676.26963.37.camel@Godzone> <200312042258.28085.russell@coker.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1070543221.28589.106.camel@Godzone> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 04 Dec 2003 21:07:01 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157733 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:19:53 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 19:58, Russell Coker wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:44, "David Palmer." wrote: > > On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 07:04, Russell Coker wrote: > > > Please point out where the Adamantix developers expressed a willingness > > > to help in any way. > > That message was intentionally to you not the list. Now we will have another > flame-war. I'm sorry, but I didn't even notice. I did note that the reply was addressed to you, but changed it without thinking, because I am always careful to reply to the list. I don't think of anything else because I never disguise anything I do unless I am up against an enemy, and I did not think that this was the scenario here. > > I searched the Debian-devel archive for the exchanges I read myself, but > > do you think that I could find them? No way! > > They must be there somewhere, but time is short, so I grabbed this off > > the Adamantix site. > > I think that it adequately displays Peter Bussers' attitude. I picked Peters' name off the site because it was the one I remembered from the debian-devel thread. Frankly I notice no disparity between what he expressed then and what he has expressed on the site. > > The web site does not seem to match Peter's actions. I will contact him and inquire about intention in order to establish what the situation is. I see absolutely no justification for a flamewar. May I enquire as to the issue(s) involved? Regards, David. From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 07:49:23 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARthc-0006s4-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 07:39:32 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 5C786EF00; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:39:32 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de (sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de [134.60.220.1]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 730A3E8F7 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:20:34 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 21850 invoked by uid 3342); 4 Dec 2003 13:20:33 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:20:33 +0100 From: Joerg Wendland To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - flavors Message-ID: <20031204132033.GD11020@sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de> Mail-Followup-To: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" References: <1070422759.23088.203.camel@zen8100a> <1070423898.23088.238.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2JFBq9zoW8cOFH7v" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1070423898.23088.238.camel@zen8100a> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157734 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:39:32 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --2JFBq9zoW8cOFH7v Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zenaan Harkness, on 2003-12-03, 14:58, you wrote: > To give limits to Debian Enterprise/ User Linux we need to define some > areas of focus. >=20 > Flavours (and sub-flavours/ tasks/ yadda) is as good a place to start as > any. So here are some proposed flavours: >=20 > - Enterprise (base packages and more "neutral" config) > - Enterprise Desktop - with sub-flavours of: > - Secretary Desktop > - Presentation Client (OO Presenter, multimedia, flash) > - Developer Desktop (all build-depends of all flavours, as a start) >=20 > - Enterprise Fileserver > - Enterprise Webserver > - Enterprise Auth Server > - Enterprise Departmental Server (combines File, Web + Auth) >=20 > - Enterprise Firewall > - Enterprise SCM Server > - Enterprise Router >=20 > - Enterprise Thin Client All these are not that important for real enterprises (talking about large ones). What they need, is _one_ enterprise server. That is an operating system that has features like distributed file-systems, high-availability facilities, system health monitoring and CPU-hotplugging = ;-) When such a system is available, then having a "fileserver flavor" is just a matter of typing "apt-get install samba". So what I (and my clients) need is an operating system for the real big boxen. This is of course Debian but I expect of Debian Enterprise to bring me an install CD that will let me setup such a system just like I would setup my small desktop computer with a standard woody CD. Joerg --=20 Joerg "joergland" Wendland GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417 --2JFBq9zoW8cOFH7v Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/zzShV6N/vVHPhBcRAt6XAJ9aoeGO+pIbkJSX41uuWfcnyF6o5QCfV86R Led39Vu1kk2JCku6eSkbBt4= =H0/U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2JFBq9zoW8cOFH7v-- From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 12:52:55 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARyVk-0005Vf-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:47:36 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 8A3F3F038; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:47:36 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from pinchy.nma.fi (pinchy.nma.fi [212.226.175.124]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25A8EC35 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:47:32 -0600 (CST) Received: by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix, from userid 104) id 800AFB7C1; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:47:31 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B7BB725 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:47:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from 6-allhosts (do.paniq.net [212.226.163.85]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1657AB725 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:47:13 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - flavors From: Fabian Fagerholm To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <20031204132033.GD11020@sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de> References: <1070422759.23088.203.camel@zen8100a> <1070423898.23088.238.camel@zen8100a> <20031204132033.GD11020@sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-c5P+FZpRYQuJhOn5+S11" Message-Id: <1070563631.1045.80.camel@kernel> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:47:11 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned-By: AMaViS-ng X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157772 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:47:36 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --=-c5P+FZpRYQuJhOn5+S11 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 15:20, Joerg Wendland wrote: > When such a system is available, then having a "fileserver flavor" is > just a matter of typing "apt-get install samba". > So what I (and my clients) need is an operating system for the real > big boxen. This is of course Debian but I expect of Debian Enterprise > to bring me an install CD that will let me setup such a system just > like I would setup my small desktop computer with a standard woody CD. The way Debian Enterprise has been described, it would provide you with this option. But you may also want to move "apt-get install samba" and the related session of tweaking samba's options to suit your network, to the install phase. Imagine having, for example, a Kerberos/LDAP system for authentication. Surely the option to install a file server with the basic configuration for that out of the box would be appealing? So what you've described is only one aspect of (how I see) Debian Enterprise. --=20 Fabian Fagerholm --=-c5P+FZpRYQuJhOn5+S11 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA/z4Ev76VUNpZBmeIRAubPAJwJva7iEdk6kpDT9uMyuuxmd6DbIwCfSKVx /vr6AThxvAN5Lk6MC6H9VVU= =KdNP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-c5P+FZpRYQuJhOn5+S11-- From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 4 14:21:23 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ARzwp-0000Nd-00; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:19:39 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 7F4DBEA55; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:19:39 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from pinchy.nma.fi (pinchy.nma.fi [212.226.175.124]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F90E8C8 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:19:26 -0600 (CST) Received: by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix, from userid 104) id E8017B7E2; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:19:24 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566EEB7CE for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:19:08 +0200 (EET) Received: from 6-allhosts (do.paniq.net [212.226.163.85]) by pinchy.nma.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD49DB7CE for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:19:06 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian From: Fabian Fagerholm To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <1070530935.928.996.camel@zen8100a> References: <1070529783.1045.73.camel@kernel> <1070530935.928.996.camel@zen8100a> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-EPNhyKR/0aOSymZxBCjF" Message-Id: <1070569145.1045.169.camel@kernel> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:19:06 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned-By: AMaViS-ng X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <7PW9jB.A.KhF.ab5z_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157781 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:19:39 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --=-EPNhyKR/0aOSymZxBCjF Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 11:42, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > I could almost cut and paste your email into the wiki it was so clear > (at least Debian parent(super) project -> CDD -> Flavor). >=20 > I hope I haven't misunderstood you, No, I was just in a hurry and expressed myself inadequately. The discussion and presentation of the three layers was, however, just a step in the process. Now that many people on this list have expressed their (mostly positive) opinions -- many more could comment still -- and there has been a proposal of what first actions should be taken -- work on the Subproject HOWTO -- I think the next set of questions lies ahead. As Andreas Tille said, and I agree, this borders on a stupid naming discussion (http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/debian-devel-200312/msg00338.htm= l). However, there's a reason why it isn't that after all. Think of these terms as labels or abstract ideas that have a concrete counterpart -- an implementation, if you will. Mako Hill said of the 2003 Debcamp Custom Distribution BOF: "I think we left with the idea that "flavors" or "metadistros" and the like may still describe *technologies* or methods which one could use to achieve a Custom Distro." (http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/debian-devel-200312/msg00367.htm= l) This is exactly what I was thinking, and I also think that a kind of understanding about all this has existed for some time. Someone just needs to s-p-e-l-l it out even when the explanation borders on stupefaction for those who have already given it lots of thought. So, mapping the terms "Debian subproject", "Custom Debian Distribution", and "flavor", to their concrete counterparts, I get: Debian subproject * A group of people. * A mission or goal that is a subset of the whole project's mission. * A mailing list -- possibly. * A web site [within the main Debian site] -- possibly. * A repository for code or files -- possibly. * Other things depending on the project. Custom Debian Distribution * A Debian Subproject. * The goal is to create a variant of Debian for a specific purpose, but utilizing the Debian development framework and resources, and feeding back* the work into the super-project. (* Perhaps this is slightly misleading. A major portion of the work will of course be done within the super-project itself. Some things, however, will first see its light as a solution for a specific Custom Debian Distribution. The goal then is to make the solution general enough for use in the super-project, if this is at all sensible. It's an evolutionary process.) Flavor * A set of predefined choices applied to a Custom Debian Distribution, making different flavors of the same Custom Debian Distribution slightly different in some respects. * A way to differentiate different parts of a distributed system that logically belong to the same Custom Debian Distribution -- several installations that cooperate to create a larger whole. * A set of install-time choices and actions that alter the installation procedure. * A set of packages that are automatically installed and configured, possibly with some variables set by a user. By looking at this, I see lots of open questions and tasks that need to be carried out for all three areas. For subprojects, there needs to be a way to determine if something is an official Debian subproject. I think being listed on what is currently http://www.debian.org/devel/, under the heading "Projects", would be the indication of this. The rest is work on the Subproject HOWTO and possible further discussions that are best deferred until the work has started and the issues come up. For Custom Debian Distributions, little needs to be done. This indicates the term is successful and clear. The Subproject HOWTO should include something like the above definition. Perhaps more detailed, but ok. For flavors, there is heaps of work to be done. In another thread, Andres Salomon said, among other things along the same line: "...should be concentrating on the framework that will make flavors possible. There is much that remains to be done on the technical level..." (http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/debian-devel-200312/msg00393.htm= l) I see flavors manifesting themselves technically in two places: * In the installation procedure of Custom Debian Distributions, probably as hooks and/or udebs for debian-installer. * In the package pool, as packages which are built general enough to support pre/postinst configuration by the above method, and as both new and special versions of certain packages. * As tasks and metapackages. Tasks could be hierarchial to support the structure discussed in this thread. One final semantic thing about flavors that I would like to propose: the "plain" flavor. The definition is obvious. It's what you get when not specifically choosing a flavor. Currently, only the plain flavor of Debian or any of its Custom Distributions exists. There is an enormous amount of things that can be drawn from this, and I have many more thoughts. But I'll stop here for now. I welcome all to discuss! Cheers, --=20 Fabian Fagerholm --=-EPNhyKR/0aOSymZxBCjF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQA/z5a576VUNpZBmeIRAopUAJ0bI9rjeI3W7Q3wMaK59E827OGXlwCfSTkd 5fnbt8IIaFdIX0Y5KJK05gw= =9oxf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-EPNhyKR/0aOSymZxBCjF-- From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 02:23:02 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASBAl-0000Qv-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 02:18:47 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id D256EF136; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 02:18:46 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mx2.unilogicnetworks.net (mx2.unilogicnetworks.net [62.133.192.12]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A35F041 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:57:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from router (unilogic.cust.unilogicnetworks.net [62.133.193.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx2.unilogicnetworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3592EF12E for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:57:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by router (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F316E7B6 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:57:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from 10.0.11.93 (unknown [10.0.11.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by router (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3C76ECA6 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:57:34 +0100 (CET) From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:35:47 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <1070526311.1045.59.camel@kernel> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312042056.58953.cobaco@linux.be> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by UNILOGIC BV (targa) - AMaViS snapshot-20020222 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=4.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_06_12 autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157827 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 02:18:46 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-12-04 10:41, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: > > Can you say who the flavors people, the metadistros people and the > > subproject people were? I'd like to make contact with all of these to > > get more details about their respective projects and their view on this. > > Here on debian-devel. (Can you hear me? ;-) ) hm, here are the names I can remember: Petter , me, (Kurt Gramlich, Maximillian Wilhelm, Frank Matthie=DF -> not o= n=20 devel as far as I know) from Skolelinux Mako, Enrico who organized the meeting David Martinez (I think), and one or two others from Meta-distros. about half a dozen others whose names I don't recall > > I want to collect knowledge and pieces of text from all who have some > > experience with subprojects, and work that material into the HOWTO. I > > will contact some subproject people shortly to get their input. Any > > pointers will be appreciated. =46or Skolelinux there's a contact page with the names of the coordinators = for=20 the different languages (14 now :) at http://i18n.skolelinux.no/kontakt.html > Beacuse of unavailablity of people.d.o I copied the most important > stuff to > > http://www.physik.uni-halle.de/~e2od5/cdd/200311_lux_cust/ > > I plan to write a written paper about the things I've said in this > talk which for sure might go into the subproject howto. i'll have a look at this this weekend =2D -- Cheers, cobaco 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/z6i35ihPJ4ZiSrsRAgR2AJwLv+3hbjlPA9ZpZbG3yEWCLraS8wCfWf3i yDZRe5YwIZ6cmv8YSowx7CQ=3D =3DB0wj =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 02:30:56 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASBAy-0000RW-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 02:19:00 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 80F9CF13A; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 02:18:57 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mx2.unilogicnetworks.net (mx2.unilogicnetworks.net [62.133.192.12]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79030ED6C for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:57:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from router (unilogic.cust.unilogicnetworks.net [62.133.193.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx2.unilogicnetworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854F9EF12C for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:57:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by router (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2E06ECA7 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:57:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from 10.0.11.93 (unknown [10.0.11.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by router (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1D66E7B6 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:57:33 +0100 (CET) From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:01:17 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <200312031301.25168.cobaco@linux.be> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312042051.23161.cobaco@linux.be> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by UNILOGIC BV (targa) - AMaViS snapshot-20020222 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=4.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_06_12 autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157828 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 02:18:57 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-12-03 21:58, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, cobaco wrote: > > hm, I've added a definition to the wiki: > > > > A Custom Debian Distribution (CDD) is a version of Debian that is > > tailored > > I do not like the term "version". I'd prefer a "subset of Debian". You > get a CDD together with main but you get a helping hand to cope with the > sheer mass. > > for a particular situation/target group out-of-the-box. > > > > Any changes necessary to Debian to support this particular > > situation/target group arge merged back into Debian whenever possible, > > improving Debian as a whole. > > There are no changes to Debian, because CDDs reside completely in > main / testing /unstable as any other package. _ideally_ there are no changes. In practice there will be. For instance: In skolelinux there's currently a package called locale-config-skolelinux which sets up de default locale for all users. This package is not part of Debian. Instead there's some discussion with the relevant maintainer about merging locale-config-skolelinux, language-env, and the different user-language packages, with the hope of eventually creating one package to set the default locale for both single users and the system as a whole. - -> while being a subset is the goal we have in mind, it's not always the actual situation. This is a consequence of 1. inertia in Debian, because of which getting things changed takes a while 2. the fact that some experimentation is often necessary to find the right solution, leading to non-optimal solutions that "get the job done" being used by the CDD in the meanwhile. - -- Cheers, cobaco 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/z5KN5ihPJ4ZiSrsRApHoAJ9zpIKoi7nRsig7Wv4GWB4NU7kK2ACeNKiG 1vaDdxRaS0AAj5ZRKDym1qw= =HqT0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 04:12:52 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASCr8-000573-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:06:38 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 61135E985; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 04:06:38 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.123]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF44BE92D for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 04:06:23 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB5A6MU05369 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:06:22 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a3.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a3.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Fri Dec 5 11:06:22 2003 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:06:15 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) In-Reply-To: <200312042051.23161.cobaco@linux.be> Message-Id: References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <200312031301.25168.cobaco@linux.be> <200312042051.23161.cobaco@linux.be> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2003 09:58:32.0218 (UTC) FILETIME=[572457A0:01C3BB16] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157836 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 04:06:38 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, cobaco wrote: > > There are no changes to Debian, because CDDs reside completely in > > main / testing /unstable as any other package. > > _ideally_ there are no changes. In practice there will be. For instance: > In skolelinux there's currently a package called locale-config-skolelinux= > which sets up de default locale for all users. This package is not part o= f > Debian. Instead there's some discussion with the relevant maintainer abou= t > merging locale-config-skolelinux, language-env, and the different > user-language packages, with the hope of eventually creating one package = to > set the default locale for both single users and the system as a whole. Well, at least for my understanding SkoleLinux is not a "Custom Debian Dist= ribution" exactly because they have packages which are not integrated in Debian. Thi= s is no problem at all, but exactly here is the cruxial point of our definition.= In my talk about CDD in Oslo I suggested the SkoleLinux people to take over= the Debian-Edu ball because Raphael Herzog announced that he was running ou= t of time. Debian-Edu *is* a CDD because it is completely inside Debian and the suggestion is that SkoleLinux people patch the packages according to th= eir needs. The *product* (one bootable CD) which contains Debian-Edu plus some= extra packages which are necessary for whatever reason might be called SkoleLinux but this is not a CDD per the definition I was using in my talk in Oslo. There was nobody who disagreed ... > -> while being a subset is the goal we have in mind, it's not always the > actual situation. This is a consequence of > 1. inertia in Debian, because of which getting things changed takes a whi= le > 2. the fact that some experimentation is often necessary to find the righ= t > solution, leading to non-optimal solutions that "get the job done" being > used by the CDD in the meanwhile. Obviousely we use a different definition of CDD and this is causing the trouble. If we should agree to your definition of CDD we have to come back= for a common name for Debian-Jr, Debian-Med, Debian-Edu, Debian-Np, ... Kind regards Andreas. --=20 Sie schaffen eine W=FCste und nennen es Frieden. =09=09-- Publius Cornelius Tacitus (55-120) From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 04:26:30 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASD6z-0007SM-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:23:01 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 5B336EB06; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 04:23:01 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from rover24.cmt (unknown [217.110.227.22]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116FFEC0E for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 03:45:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from scooby.cmt (scooby [192.168.60.70]) by rover24.cmt (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21524C7A61 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:45:29 +0100 (CET) Received: by scooby.cmt (Postfix, from userid 1050) id B274D3B6FF; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:45:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages From: Chris Halls To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <20031203191803.GA28091@complete.org> References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <20031203044920.GA1534@complete.org> <20031203191803.GA28091@complete.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1070617531.11968.1.camel@scooby.cmt> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:45:31 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <-AI1KD.A.19B.EyF0_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157839 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 04:23:01 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 20:18, John Goerzen wrote: > Debian Enterprise will have to support 64-bit platforms, which > OpenOffice doesn't. ..yet. That will be fixed by 2.0 at the latest. Help is appreciated. Chris From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 04:37:55 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASD1S-0006c7-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:17:18 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id C5C13E9B8; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 04:17:18 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.123]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2499EE88E for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 04:17:16 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB5AHE708424 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:17:14 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a3.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a3.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Fri Dec 5 11:17:14 2003 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:16:56 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) In-Reply-To: <200312042056.58953.cobaco@linux.be> Message-Id: References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <1070526311.1045.59.camel@kernel> <200312042056.58953.cobaco@linux.be> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2003 10:09:13.0093 (UTC) FILETIME=[D5221B50:01C3BB17] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157837 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 04:17:18 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, cobaco wrote: > hm, here are the names I can remember: > > Petter , me, (Kurt Gramlich, Maximillian Wilhelm, Frank Matthie=DF -> not= on > devel as far as I know) from Skolelinux > > Mako, Enrico who organized the meeting > > David Martinez (I think), and one or two others from Meta-distros. > > about half a dozen others whose names I don't recall I'm sorry that I was not able to enter this meeting because I was not yet in Oslo. Benjamin 'Mako' Hill and Enrico Zini told me about the meetin= g and explained me the term in this way I presented in my talk. > > > I want to collect knowledge and pieces of text from all who have some= > > > experience with subprojects, and work that material into the HOWTO. I= > > > will contact some subproject people shortly to get their input. Any > > > pointers will be appreciated. > > For Skolelinux there's a contact page with the names of the coordinators = for > the different languages (14 now :) at http://i18n.skolelinux.no/kontakt.h= tml Please see my previous mail and try to accept that while absolutely incompl= ete the common entry point for CDDs is: http://www.debian.org/devel/ under the topic "Projects". The reason for inventing the term CDD was not to make more confusion by merging projects outside Debian in but to differe= ntiate user centric projects like Debian-Jr from for instance "The X Strike Force"= or "Debian IPv6 Project". I'm very sorry that this is absolutely not reflecte= d in the page but you will find the relevant people caring for those projects= when following the relevant links. Most of these CDDs have their own maili= ng list but currently there is no common mailing list for all CDDs. Instead we use= debian-devel by tagging the subject [custom]. [BTW, declaring that SkoleLinux as "no CDD" I absolutely do not respect the= ir fine work. I really love what they do and SkoleLinux is one of the most impressive derivatives of Debian, but it just does not (yet) fall under ou= r definition.] Kind regards Andreas. --=20 Sie schaffen eine W=FCste und nennen es Frieden. =09=09-- Publius Cornelius Tacitus (55-120) From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 05:27:58 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASE6M-00011r-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:26:26 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 52DECEA50; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:26:26 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B988E958 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:02:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from 10.0.11.93 cobaco@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.133.193.10] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.45 $ on Novell NetWare via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Fri, 05 Dec 2003 04:02:13 -0700 From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:01:02 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <200312042056.58953.cobaco@linux.be> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312051201.02994.cobaco@linux.be> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.2 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: ** Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157850 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:26:26 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-12-05 11:16, Andreas Tille wrote: > their fine work. I really love what they do and SkoleLinux is one of the > most impressive derivatives of Debian, but it just does not (yet) fall > under our definition.] huh ?! How do you figure that? Skolelinux install CD is basicly the first CD of a standard Debian (package= s=20 are reordered to have everything we need on the first CD). From the top off= =20 my head the only things in Skolelinux that are not in Debian are: =2D - some hooks into d-i to do the debconf preseeding and choose the skole= linux=20 flavor -> no standard way of doing this in Debian (yet) =2D - a package to do the system-wide localization (discussion about mergin= g this=20 into language-env is taking place) =2D - custom configurationfiles (through cfengine) =2D - user-administration tool (still very much in development) =2D --=20 Cheers, cobaco =20 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0GVu5ihPJ4ZiSrsRAqxTAJ9DSce0JxSr0BeAuNcXbhhrk+E7CACaAjMf 0xiINt6q1wF2aHdnXFAY4AY=3D =3DCwxy =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 06:13:38 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASEl6-0005HX-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 06:08:32 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 5DF70EC2F; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 06:08:32 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mx2.unilogicnetworks.net (mx2.unilogicnetworks.net [62.133.192.12]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5056E93F for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:43:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from router (unilogic.cust.unilogicnetworks.net [62.133.193.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx2.unilogicnetworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2580DEF12E for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:43:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by router (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516F26ECA6 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:43:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from 10.0.11.93 (unknown [10.0.11.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by router (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEDEE6E7B6 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:43:47 +0100 (CET) From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:42:41 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <200312042051.23161.cobaco@linux.be> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312051242.44520.cobaco@linux.be> X-Virus-Scanned: by UNILOGIC BV (targa) - AMaViS snapshot-20020222 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157862 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 06:08:32 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-12-05 11:06, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, cobaco wrote: > > > There are no changes to Debian, because CDDs reside completely in > > > main / testing /unstable as any other package. > > > > _ideally_ there are no changes. In practice there will be. For instance: > > In skolelinux there's currently a package called > > locale-config-skolelinux which sets up de default locale for all users. > > This package is not part of Debian. Instead there's some discussion with > > the relevant maintainer about merging locale-config-skolelinux, > > language-env, and the different user-language packages, with the hope > > of eventually creating one package to set the default locale for both > > single users and the system as a whole. > > Well, at least for my understanding SkoleLinux is not a "Custom Debian > Distribution" exactly because they have packages which are not integrated > in Debian. This is no problem at all, but exactly here is the cruxial > point of our definition. In my talk about CDD in Oslo I suggested the > SkoleLinux people to take over the Debian-Edu ball because Raphael Herzog > announced that he was running out of time. =20 in the process of happening actually >Debian-Edu *is* a CDD because > it is completely inside Debian and=20 hm, as far as I know Debian-edu is nothing more then a couple of=20 task-packages at this point (and some education packages that got added to= =20 the archive) > the suggestion is that SkoleLinux > people patch the packages according to their needs. =20 being done for Skolelinux, so basically you're saying that Skolelinux (or a= ny=20 other project aiming to be a CDD) is not a CDD untill they get everything=20 they need back into Debian proper (which can take quite a while), even when= =20 we're trying to do so (and always have)? >The *product* (one > bootable CD) which contains Debian-Edu plus some extra packages which are > necessary for whatever reason might be called SkoleLinux but this is not a > CDD per the definition I was using in my talk in Oslo. There was nobody > who disagreed ... hm, the definition I was using for a CDD would include Skolelinux because=20 while not everything we do is in Debian _yet_we are trying to get everythin= g=20 included into Debian. the responses to my earlier messages=20 http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/debian-devel-200312/msg00457.html and http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/debian-devel-200312/msg00403.html would seem to indicate (at least to me) that this view was shared > > -> while being a subset is the goal we have in mind, it's not always the > > actual situation. This is a consequence of > > 1. inertia in Debian, because of which getting things changed takes a > > while 2. the fact that some experimentation is often necessary to find > > the right solution, leading to non-optimal solutions that "get the job > > done" being used by the CDD in the meanwhile. > > Obviousely we use a different definition of CDD and this is causing the > trouble. If we should agree to your definition of CDD we have to come > back for a common name for Debian-Jr, Debian-Med, Debian-Edu, Debian-Np, > ... er, these are subprojects producing CDD's (and Skolelinux is in the process= =20 of becoming Debian-Edu at this point see http://lists.debian.org/ debian-devel-announce/2003/debian-devel-announce-200309/msg00011.html).=20 The produced CDD's might, or might not be a subset of Debian at any given=20 time (at the moment at least the install process needs to be modified as=20 there's no standard way to create an install/live-cd with a custom set of=20 packages and configuration files). The important point here is, IMHO, that= =20 there is effort to get the missing pieces into Debian. Wether all pieces ar= e=20 already in Debian at a given point in time is I think unimportant (for=20 defining a CDD anyways). =2D --=20 Cheers, cobaco =20 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0G805ihPJ4ZiSrsRApNCAJ0SH9Swwjr3xmUGzj0gtFG3WL1GzwCeOQ2A u5q9K7i+0qWT9QOgH7SqYCU=3D =3DrwVw =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 06:15:00 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASEVE-0003RJ-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:52:08 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 0CA50E8C5; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:52:08 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de (sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de [134.60.220.1]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BC6B2E8A1 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:24:39 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 32311 invoked by uid 3342); 5 Dec 2003 11:24:39 -0000 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:24:39 +0100 From: Joerg Wendland To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - flavors Message-ID: <20031205112439.GA1461@sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <1070422759.23088.203.camel@zen8100a> <1070423898.23088.238.camel@zen8100a> <20031204132033.GD11020@sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de> <1070563631.1045.80.camel@kernel> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1070563631.1045.80.camel@kernel> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157856 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:52:08 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fabian Fagerholm, on 2003-12-04, 20:47, you wrote: > The way Debian Enterprise has been described, it would provide you with > this option. But you may also want to move "apt-get install samba" and > the related session of tweaking samba's options to suit your network, to > the install phase. Imagine having, for example, a Kerberos/LDAP system > for authentication. Surely the option to install a file server with the > basic configuration for that out of the box would be appealing? Sure, but configuration of the samba package should be the responsibility of this package. What the Debian Enterprise project should do is to work with the samba maintainer to achieve this and maybe provide some sort of special configuration package. This is what I meant when writing about meta-packages and having work done by a sub-project benefit the whole Debian system. Joerg --=20 Joerg "joergland" Wendland GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417 --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0Gr3V6N/vVHPhBcRAt6yAJ0Rz1Wdnn+vlupQVICCKiIvuSh7eQCgiB+c 42xDfOR4bpOklPivPsGPR/Y= =NpWi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn-- From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 06:24:22 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASEem-0004Y1-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 06:02:00 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id D192BEB9B; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 06:02:00 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Ulm.bund.de (Ulm.bund.de [194.95.179.208]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1A6E99F for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 06:01:58 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Ulm.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id NAA04791 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:01:52 +0100 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:01:44 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) In-Reply-To: <200312051201.02994.cobaco@linux.be> Message-Id: References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <200312042056.58953.cobaco@linux.be> <200312051201.02994.cobaco@linux.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2003 11:54:01.0468 (UTC) FILETIME=[794BFBC0:01C3BB26] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157861 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 06:02:00 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, cobaco wrote: > On 2003-12-05 11:16, Andreas Tille wrote: > > their fine work. I really love what they do and SkoleLinux is one of the > > most impressive derivatives of Debian, but it just does not (yet) fall > > under our definition.] > > huh ?! How do you figure that? Please read again my last two mails and assume that I know what SkoleLinux is. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 06:26:41 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASEcn-0004Mt-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:59:57 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id F33C9EB9B; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:59:56 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.101]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C22EA9E for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:59:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB5BxrO29092 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:59:53 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Fri Dec 5 12:59:53 2003 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:59:38 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - flavors In-Reply-To: <20031205112439.GA1461@sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de> Message-Id: References: <1070422759.23088.203.camel@zen8100a> <1070423898.23088.238.camel@zen8100a> <20031204132033.GD11020@sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de> <1070563631.1045.80.camel@kernel> <20031205112439.GA1461@sol.wh-hms.uni-ulm.de> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2003 11:51:54.0734 (UTC) FILETIME=[2DC1E8E0:01C3BB26] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157860 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:59:56 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Joerg Wendland wrote: > Sure, but configuration of the samba package should be the > responsibility of this package. What the Debian Enterprise project > should do is to work with the samba maintainer to achieve this and > maybe provide some sort of special configuration package. This is what > I meant when writing about meta-packages and having work done by a > sub-project benefit the whole Debian system. I would see chances for extra configuration if there are more than one package involved. From personal experience I know the example that Zope works fine together with apache. You can define rewriting rules for apache to the Zope server, use SSL through apache or do some caching. Those kind of inter package configuration might make some sense. Just a rough guess some samba ldap relations might be possible. Changing configurations of single packages should be solved via the BTS ... Kind regards Andreas. --=20 Sie schaffen eine W=FCste und nennen es Frieden. =09=09-- Publius Cornelius Tacitus (55-120) From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 08:35:05 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASH2S-0007yt-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:34:36 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id DD445EB23; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:34:32 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from micha.hampshire.edu (micha.hampshire.edu [192.101.188.235]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF393E942 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:34:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha ([127.0.0.1] helo=kamna ident=mako) by micha.hampshire.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ASH2G-0002q3-00 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:34:25 -0500 Received: from mako by kamna with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1ASH2G-0000am-00 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:34:24 +0100 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:34:23 +0100 From: "Benj. Mako Hill" To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Message-ID: <20031205143423.GI915@kamna> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <200312042056.58953.cobaco@linux.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7IgncvKP0CVPV/ZZ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157874 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:34:32 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --7IgncvKP0CVPV/ZZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 11:16:56AM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: > Please see my previous mail and try to accept that while absolutely > incomplete the common entry point for CDDs is: >=20 > http://www.debian.org/devel/ >=20 > under the topic "Projects". Right, this page is (1) out of date and (2) really should be split to differentiate Custom Distributions from non-CDD subprojects as you mention. I've suggested this offhand before and the reception was a little cold. Perhaps with the promise that will silence long threads like this on -devel, people will be more receptive to the idea. :) I will personally move forward with this as soon as I get access to CVS. > [BTW, declaring that SkoleLinux as "no CDD" I absolutely do not > respect their fine work. I really love what they do and SkoleLinux > is one of the most impressive derivatives of Debian, but it just > does not (yet) fall under our definition.] Andreas, perhaps you missed this message: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2003/debian-devel-announce-= 200309/msg00011.html Skolelinux took over for/merged with Debian-Edu in September. Through Debian-Edu, they *are* listed and linked from the page you mention. More importantly, Skolelinux has done more than almost any CDD in terms of contributing back to Debian in both code and in methodology. Their method of submitting wishlist bug reports with low priority debconf questions is IMHO the most important way that CDDs can integreate their work into Debian proper and that CDDs can actually use to become pure Debian and earn their name. Regards, Mako --=20 Benjamin Mako Hill mako@debian.org http://mako.yukidoke.org/ --7IgncvKP0CVPV/ZZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0Jdv1U6uS8mYcLERAq1qAKCPKv8/c15zvX4dDfmXOA+QJD2rKgCfSMIP xwrelVAZGL9cbjvN1N9ZFcc= =+2JC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7IgncvKP0CVPV/ZZ-- From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 09:52:07 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASICA-0008Fr-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:48:42 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 089DAECEA; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:48:41 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.101]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4612ECCF for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:48:35 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB5FmY023453 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:48:34 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Fri Dec 5 16:48:34 2003 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:48:19 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) In-Reply-To: <200312051242.44520.cobaco@linux.be> Message-Id: References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <200312042051.23161.cobaco@linux.be> <200312051242.44520.cobaco@linux.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2003 15:40:35.0859 (UTC) FILETIME=[202F6E30:01C3BB46] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <4VfGE.A.HpC.ZjK0_@murphy> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157891 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:48:41 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, cobaco wrote: > hm, as far as I know Debian-edu is nothing more then a couple of > task-packages at this point (and some education packages that got added to > the archive) I do not compare the quality of Debian-Edu or SkoleLinux - I just want to use the right term. Yes, SkoleLinux is currently more useable - no question. > being done for Skolelinux, so basically you're saying that Skolelinux (or any > other project aiming to be a CDD) is not a CDD untill they get everything > they need back into Debian proper (which can take quite a while), even when > we're trying to do so (and always have)? That's the definition we agreed to. > hm, the definition I was using for a CDD would include Skolelinux because > while not everything we do is in Debian _yet_we are trying to get everything > included into Debian. If you would have read my previous mails you would have noticed, that we use different definitions and that I want to clarify _the definition_ and I'm not talking about the quality of SkoleLinux (which is damn good). Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 10:00:16 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASIIW-0000ZV-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:55:16 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 3AEA9ECF2; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:55:16 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sanctuary.edennet (blk2-200-49.eastlink.ca [24.224.200.49]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22AA9E994 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:36:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from synrg by sanctuary.edennet with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1ASI0D-0003cX-00 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:36:21 -0400 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:36:20 -0400 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Message-ID: <20031205153620.GD13222@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> References: <20031205092045.E1C6AE897@murphy.debian.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031205092045.E1C6AE897@murphy.debian.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Ben Armstrong X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157893 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:55:16 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 03:20:45AM -0600, cobaco wrote: > _ideally_ there are no changes. In practice there will be. Why? > For instance: > In skolelinux there's currently a package called locale-config-skolelinux > which sets up de default locale for all users. This package is not part of > Debian. Instead there's some discussion with the relevant maintainer about > merging locale-config-skolelinux, language-env, and the different > user-language packages, with the hope of eventually creating one package to > set the default locale for both single users and the system as a whole. Then that discussion needs to be resolved so that a solution can be made that is in Debian main. I'm sorry, but I really have a hard time with this. A Custom Debian Distribution is nothing more than what is provided within Debian proper, as Andreas said. While a Debian subproject may consider and make use of stuff in development that is outside of Debian while transitioning it to be "pure Debian", the formal definition of CDD cannot include materials outside of Debian main, otherwise it is not Debian, and cannot contain the name "Debian" in its title. Skolelinux, as you say, is a perfect example of this. Skolelinux is not a CDD. It is a project in transition to becoming a CDD. As I understand it, Skolelinux is not entirely there yet, for the reasons you have already mentioned. It has its own history and its own needs which are for the moment unresolvable within Debian. Furthermore, it does not contain 'Debian' in its title, so there is no confusion. This is clearly a Debian-derivative, not a CDD. > - -> while being a subset is the goal we have in mind, it's not always the > actual situation. This is a consequence of > 1. inertia in Debian, because of which getting things changed takes a while > 2. the fact that some experimentation is often necessary to find the right > solution, leading to non-optimal solutions that "get the job done" being > used by the CDD in the meanwhile. Sure, and that's what the 'experimental' ftp archive is for. Now, I'm not saying that Debian derivatives shouldn't exist. It is important to acknowledge that they do, but at the same time work towards eliminating, as much as possible, the need for their existence outside of Debian main. Not all reasons for being a derivative (or "Debian-based distribution") can be eliminated (such as the inclusion of non-free or contrib software). However, I believe the reasons for Skolelinux not being a CDD can and will eventually be resolved. Ben -- ,-. nSLUG http://www.nslug.ns.ca synrg@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca \`' Debian http://www.debian.org synrg@debian.org ` [ gpg 395C F3A4 35D3 D247 1387 2D9E 5A94 F3CA 0B27 13C8 ] [ pgp 7F DA 09 4B BA 2C 0D E0 1B B1 31 ED C6 A9 39 4F ] From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 10:00:35 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASI7G-0007u4-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:43:38 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id C4BF2EC8F; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:43:37 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.102]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4781DEC31 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:43:27 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB5FhQH26087 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:43:26 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Fri Dec 5 16:43:26 2003 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:43:24 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) In-Reply-To: <20031205143423.GI915@kamna> Message-Id: References: <200312042056.58953.cobaco@linux.be> <20031205143423.GI915@kamna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2003 15:35:40.0718 (UTC) FILETIME=[70447CE0:01C3BB45] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157890 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:43:37 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: > I will personally move forward with this as soon as I get access to > CVS. Thanks. This would be much appreciated. > Andreas, perhaps you missed this message: > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2003/debian-devel-announce-200309/msg00011.html Definitely not because I'm very happy about it. > Skolelinux took over for/merged with Debian-Edu in September. Through > Debian-Edu, they *are* listed and linked from the page you mention. Yes and you might remember that exactly this was the hint I gave in Oslo in the discussion of my talk. > More importantly, Skolelinux has done more than almost any CDD in > terms of contributing back to Debian in both code and in > methodology. Their method of submitting wishlist bug reports with low > priority debconf questions is IMHO the most important way that CDDs > can integreate their work into Debian proper and that CDDs can Definitely! That's why I feeled obliged to add the remark that I greatly appreciate the work of the SkoleLinux people and that they probably did more for Debian than any CDD is out of any question. > actually use to become pure Debian and earn their name. ^^^^^^ This is the keyword why I think that SkoleLinux is not yet a CDD. They do not have a webpage under www.d.o, no mailing list under lists.d.o (which is not the most important criterium). IMHO the key feature is that SkoleLinux is not yet visible once you install plain Debian neither in tasksel nor in the form of metapackages (I do not mind whether they adopt edu-* name space or just use their own), etc. Regarding to tasksel there is a an open bug #186085 which definitely needs support by the other CDD-people. Once SkoleLinux is for instance mentioned in tasksel (see #186085) I would call it CDD. To be a CDD or not is no question of honor - its a question of the placement related to Debian. Its really no shame to be no CDD (you might even have reasons to make the work better outside). Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 10:42:58 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASIXG-0002Kl-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:10:30 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 5F620ED3E; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:10:30 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19363ECF2 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:10:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from desk (c-24-6-43-184.client.comcast.net[24.6.43.184]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003120516102701100500r8e>; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:10:27 +0000 Received: from tom by desk with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1ASIX7-0001Eh-00 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:10:21 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:10:21 -0800 From: Tom To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Message-ID: <20031205161021.GA4743@comcast.net> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20031205092045.E1C6AE897@murphy.debian.org> <20031205153620.GD13222@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031205153620.GD13222@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Tom X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157894 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:10:30 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 11:36:20AM -0400, Ben Armstrong wrote: > Then that discussion needs to be resolved so that a solution can be made > that is in Debian main. It's useful to try to clarify the terms so people can speak the same language, but as soon as you categorize anything somebody's going to come out with something which fits in multiple categories. Anything which isn't just a subset of Debian will ultimately just be a distraction, in which case the # of "flavors" is the cardinality of the power set of packages. :-) From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 5 10:49:38 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASJ06-00052x-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:40:18 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 66CF1EE52; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:40:18 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sanctuary.edennet (blk2-200-49.eastlink.ca [24.224.200.49]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8FEED74 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:13:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from synrg by sanctuary.edennet with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1ASIZx-0003iD-00 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 12:13:17 -0400 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:13:16 -0400 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Message-ID: <20031205161316.GE13222@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> References: <20031205152352.D9F33EB83@murphy.debian.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031205152352.D9F33EB83@murphy.debian.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Ben Armstrong X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157900 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:40:18 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 09:23:52AM -0600, cobaco wrote: > On 2003-12-05 11:06, Andreas Tille wrote: > > Well, at least for my understanding SkoleLinux is not a "Custom Debian > > Distribution" exactly because they have packages which are not integrated > > in Debian. This is no problem at all, but exactly here is the cruxial > > point of our definition. In my talk about CDD in Oslo I suggested the > > SkoleLinux people to take over the Debian-Edu ball because Raphael Herzog > > announced that he was running out of time. > > in the process of happening actually A move that I'm happy to see is happening. > >Debian-Edu *is* a CDD because > > it is completely inside Debian and > > hm, as far as I know Debian-edu is nothing more then a couple of > task-packages at this point (and some education packages that got added to > the archive) Which doesn't change Andreas' point. It may be a lame CDD, but it is still a CDD. :) > > the suggestion is that SkoleLinux > > people patch the packages according to their needs. > > being done for Skolelinux, so basically you're saying that Skolelinux (or any > other project aiming to be a CDD) is not a CDD untill they get everything > they need back into Debian proper (which can take quite a while), even when > we're trying to do so (and always have)? Again we trip across the distinction between organizational and technical terms. Skolelinux has not yet produced a CDD release (the technical term), but it is a work-in-progress. Organizationally, Skolelinux is a subproject that is working to produce a CDD because that is its stated goal. > >The *product* (one > > bootable CD) which contains Debian-Edu plus some extra packages which are > > necessary for whatever reason might be called SkoleLinux but this is not a > > CDD per the definition I was using in my talk in Oslo. There was nobody > > who disagreed ... > > hm, the definition I was using for a CDD would include Skolelinux because > while not everything we do is in Debian _yet_we are trying to get everything > included into Debian. Sure, the work-in-progress is a CDD. Existing releases, however, are not. > the responses to my earlier messages > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/debian-devel-200312/msg00457.html > and > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/debian-devel-200312/msg00403.html > would seem to indicate (at least to me) that this view was shared I still have a problem with "whenever possible". You seem to be reserving the right to always include some material in releases of the CDD that is outside of Debian. You cannot call any release of Debian including material outside of Debian main "Official Debian". That isn't just splitting hairs. That's how it is described here: http://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/ Depending on whether you are talking about a CD of Skolelinux as a stable or developer's release, it is either a "Vendor Release" or "Development Snapshot" according to the descriptions on this page. > The important point here is, IMHO, that > there is effort to get the missing pieces into Debian. Wether all pieces are > already in Debian at a given point in time is I think unimportant (for > defining a CDD anyways). For defining a subproject working on a CDD, no. But intent doesn't make any difference to the end-user if release time rolls around and stuff outside of Debian is still being included. At this point, what the users have in their hands is a distribution derived from Debian. For example, if they find bugs in any of the material outside of Debian, it must be dealt with outside of the usual Debian structures (i.e. bts makes no provision for filing bugs against packages that aren't actually in Debian). Regards, Ben -- ,-. nSLUG http://www.nslug.ns.ca synrg@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca \`' Debian http://www.debian.org synrg@debian.org ` [ gpg 395C F3A4 35D3 D247 1387 2D9E 5A94 F3CA 0B27 13C8 ] [ pgp 7F DA 09 4B BA 2C 0D E0 1B B1 31 ED C6 A9 39 4F ] From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Dec 6 01:40:56 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASQJ7-0003gi-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:28:25 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 7E26BEFB8; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 18:28:22 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A95D9EEAE for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 18:08:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from . cobaco@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [80.236.145.15] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.45 $ on Novell NetWare via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:08:37 -0700 From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:40:07 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200312042056.58953.cobaco@linux.be> <20031205143423.GI915@kamna> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312052140.07262.cobaco@linux.be> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.0 required=4.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_03_06, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: *** Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157935 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 18:28:22 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-12-05 16:43, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: > > More importantly, Skolelinux has done more than almost any CDD in > > terms of contributing back to Debian in both code and in > > methodology. Their method of submitting wishlist bug reports with low > > priority debconf questions is IMHO the most important way that CDDs > > can integreate their work into Debian proper and that CDDs can > > Definitely! > That's why I feeled obliged to add the remark that I greatly appreciate > the work of the SkoleLinux people and that they probably did more for > Debian than any CDD is out of any question. In the above sentence you seem to refer to Skolelinux as a CDD , yet from=20 you're other replies it would seem you see them as a Debian-derivative. This seems inconsistent (am I misintepreting something here?) > IMHO the key feature is > that SkoleLinux is not yet visible once you install plain Debian neither > in tasksel nor in the form of metapackages (I do not mind whether they > adopt edu-* name space or just use their own), a task-package does not a CDD make, that is but the first step selecting th= e=20 packages to be installed, you also need to do the necessary configuration=20 for your target group (debconf preseeding is not yet the answer) > Once SkoleLinux is for instance mentioned in tasksel (see > #186085) I would call it CDD. even with that task-package a part of Debian Skolelinux would not be a=20 debian-subset: one the packages needed to do the custom configuration can=20 never get into debian (as it overwrites configuration files of other=20 packages), this package however should become unnecesary once=20 debconf-preseeding covers all our needs. =2D -> you again seem to contradict yourself (this same problem for configu= ration=20 applies for all CDD's at this point I think) > To be a CDD or not is no question of honor - its a question of the > placement related to Debian. Its really no shame to be no CDD (you might > even have reasons to make the work better outside). exactly, we seem to differ in opinion about at exactly what point the term= =20 CDD is warranted (though we agree that some relation to Debian is required)= =2E=20 See my reply to Ben Armstrong's mail to see where I draw that line. =2D --=20 Cheers, cobaco =20 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0O0n5ihPJ4ZiSrsRAnz2AJ4+mb7UM7nlSVSGp5oBVRqUT0q+YgCeNHrh QHaue1GhEwAJ+akc4npj5Mw=3D =3D13UW =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Dec 6 03:02:40 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASRYj-0006ps-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:48:37 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id E5D65E90E; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:48:36 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94014EC35 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:31:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from . cobaco@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [80.236.145.15] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.45 $ on Novell NetWare via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:31:24 -0700 From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:30:01 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20031205152352.D9F33EB83@murphy.debian.org> <20031205161316.GE13222@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> In-Reply-To: <20031205161316.GE13222@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312060230.05620.cobaco@linux.be> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.4 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: ** Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157939 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:48:36 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-12-05 17:13, Ben Armstrong wrote: > On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 09:23:52AM -0600, cobaco wrote: > > On 2003-12-05 11:06, Andreas Tille wrote: > > >Debian-Edu *is* a CDD because > > > it is completely inside Debian and > > > > hm, as far as I know Debian-edu is nothing more then a couple of > > task-packages at this point (and some education packages that got added > > to the archive) > > Which doesn't change Andreas' point. It may be a lame CDD, but it is > still a CDD. :) in my view a CDD should provide=20 1. a (sub)set of packages 2. a default configuration of these packages fitting the target group of th= e=20 CDD Debian-edu (pre-merge with Skolelinux) got started on 1. but never got arou= nd=20 to 2. Thus I'd call the debian-edu task-packages a first step to a CDD, but= =20 not a CDD (as 2 is missing) > > > the suggestion is that SkoleLinux > > > people patch the packages according to their needs. > > > > being done for Skolelinux, so basically you're saying that Skolelinux > > (or any other project aiming to be a CDD) is not a CDD untill they get > > everything they need back into Debian proper (which can take quite a > > while), even when we're trying to do so (and always have)? > > Again we trip across the distinction between organizational and technical > terms. Skolelinux has not yet produced a CDD release (the technical > term), but it is a work-in-progress. Organizationally, Skolelinux is a > subproject that is working to produce a CDD because that is its stated > goal. > > >The *product* (one > > > bootable CD) which contains Debian-Edu plus some extra packages which > > > are necessary for whatever reason might be called SkoleLinux but this > > > is not a CDD per the definition I was using in my talk in Oslo. There > > > was nobody who disagreed ... > > > > hm, the definition I was using for a CDD would include Skolelinux > > because while not everything we do is in Debian _yet_we are trying to > > get everything included into Debian. > > Sure, the work-in-progress is a CDD. Existing releases, however, are not. Ok, so right now we have a number of sub-projects working to produce a CDD= =20 but no actual CDD's (since not all the necesary parts to create a CDD are=20 available in Debian). > I still have a problem with "whenever possible". You seem to be reserving > the right to always include some material in releases of the CDD that is > outside of Debian. You cannot call any release of Debian including > material outside of Debian main "Official Debian". That isn't just > splitting hairs. That's how it is described here: > > http://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/ > > Depending on whether you are talking about a CD of Skolelinux as a stable > or developer's release, it is either a "Vendor Release" or "Development > Snapshot" according to the descriptions on this page. ok that's clear now: in order to call something a CDD everything it uses=20 needs to be inside Debian because otherwise the "Debian" needs to be left=20 out of CDD (which would leave CD, and that acronym is already taken). hm, so=20 CDD =3D a subset of Debian configured to work for a particular target gro= up=20 out-of-the-box. should probably be added to the CD types once actual CDD's come into=20 existence. that is if there's nobody who has problems with the above definition. > > The important point here is, IMHO, that > > there is effort to get the missing pieces into Debian. Wether all pieces > > are already in Debian at a given point in time is I think unimportant > > (for defining a CDD anyways). > > For defining a subproject working on a CDD, no. But intent doesn't make > any difference to the end-user if release time rolls around and stuff > outside of Debian is still being included. At this point, what the users > have in their hands is a distribution derived from Debian. For example, > if they find bugs in any of the material outside of Debian, it must be > dealt with outside of the usual Debian structures (i.e. bts makes no > provision for filing bugs against packages that aren't actually in > Debian). ack, clear now. =2D --=20 Cheers, cobaco =20 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0TEd5ihPJ4ZiSrsRAvoiAJ9skI3zIwUNAl3pO6Ky1Lw/mDdV9wCeOIh2 0UFNVLMhsauZR0eIzjxxuQ8=3D =3DH7Id =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Dec 6 03:30:48 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASRAd-0005rZ-00; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:23:43 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 0A706EDBC; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:23:42 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD92CEDDB for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:00:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from . cobaco@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [80.236.145.15] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.45 $ on Novell NetWare via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:08:41 -0700 From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:55:04 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <200312051242.44520.cobaco@linux.be> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312052116.53415.cobaco@linux.be> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.0 required=4.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_03_06, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: *** Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157937 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:23:42 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-12-05 16:48, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, cobaco wrote: > > hm, as far as I know Debian-edu is nothing more then a couple of > > task-packages at this point (and some education packages that got added > > to the archive) > > I do not compare the quality of Debian-Edu or SkoleLinux - I just want to > use the right term. Yes, SkoleLinux is currently more useable - no > question. didn't interprete it thay way, I was just pointing out the state of both Skolelinux and Debian-edu before the Skolelinux/Debian-edu merging announced in http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2003/ debian-devel-announce-200309/msg00011.html started. > > being done for Skolelinux, so basically you're saying that Skolelinux > > (or any other project aiming to be a CDD) is not a CDD untill they get > > everything they need back into Debian proper (which can take quite a > > while), even when we're trying to do so (and always have)? > > That's the definition we agreed to. heh, I was under the impression that the definition was still being discussed , and it certainly doesn't follow the definition I've used throughout this thread (the message where I articulated my definition had a reply saying "exactly", so I also don't appear to be the only one here) > If you would have read my previous mails you would have noticed, that we > use different definitions obviously=20 (while we seem to be misunderstanding each other, why would you assume I=20 haven't read your mails? -> never attribute to malevolence what can be=20 adequately attributed to misunderstanding, mkay?) >and that I want to clarify _the definition_ and coming to an agreement of _the_ definition_ is the subject of this thread, consequently as yet there is no such thing as _the_ definition_. see my answer to Ben armstrong where I try to clarify the point I was making (trying to anyhow) in the previous mail. > I'm not talking about the quality of SkoleLinux (which is damn good). didn't take it that way :-) =2D -- Cheers, cobaco 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0PCo5ihPJ4ZiSrsRAmc+AJ4jot/Ms3M5bt9ssPTXsyC3lY5L0ACdFbgL 3PVHwZujAdcl6Oj4uTMKL1g=3D =3DzexO =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Dec 6 03:49:18 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASYzv-0003Ib-00; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 03:45:11 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 0CF0DE93D; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 03:45:10 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B53E8FE for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 03:13:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from . cobaco@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [80.236.145.15] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.45 $ on Novell NetWare via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:08:33 -0700 From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:00:05 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20031205092045.E1C6AE897@murphy.debian.org> <20031205153620.GD13222@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> In-Reply-To: <20031205153620.GD13222@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312052100.07892.cobaco@linux.be> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.0 required=4.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_03_06, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: *** Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157971 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 03:45:10 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-12-05 16:36, Ben Armstrong wrote: > On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 03:20:45AM -0600, cobaco wrote: > > _ideally_ there are no changes. In practice there will be. > > Why? because it takes time to change things in Debian, example: as far as I'm aware everyone involved with CDD's agrees that low priority debconf questions combined with debconf-preseeding are the way to go regarding CDD-specific configuration of packages on installation. However= =20 at the moment this is simply not completely possible -> while we're working to change it so that this is possible a temporary solution is necessary (otherwise we can't provide an out-of-the-box solution that works for our target group). As this should be a temporary workaround there's nobody trying to get it into Debian (instead we're trying to change things so debconf-preseeding can take care of all our needs) -> if you don't allow temporary solutions while low priority debconf question get included, than there currently are no CDD's as custom configuration is necessary to support a CDD's target group out-of-the-box. > I'm sorry, but I really have a hard time with this. A Custom Debian > Distribution is nothing more than what is provided within Debian proper, > as Andreas said. While a Debian subproject may consider and make use of > stuff in development that is outside of Debian while transitioning it to > be "pure Debian", the formal definition of CDD cannot include materials > outside of Debian main, otherwise it is not Debian, and cannot contain the > name "Debian" in its title. =20 IMHO as long as both a and b below apply it can be called a CDD. a) doesn't cause problems when mixed with standard Debian packages (i.e.=20 pointing your sources.list to the Debian mirrors should just work without=20 problems) b) "its use"/"its being outside of Debian" is temporary awaiting changes o= r=20 additions to Debian (which can take quite awhile to filter through if, like= =20 Skolelinux, the CDD uses stable as a base) >Skolelinux, as you say, is a perfect example > of this. Skolelinux is not a CDD. It is a project in transition to > becoming a CDD. =20 (obviously) I disagree here IMHO Skolelinux is a CDD in transition to=20 becoming a debian-subset. >As I understand it, Skolelinux is not entirely there yet, > for the reasons you have already mentioned. It 's has its own history and > its own needs which are for the moment unresolvable within Debian.=20 with the exception of ltsp which isn't _yet_ in Debian, all non-debian=20 software in Skolelinux has to do with configuration. these packages either - will be included into Debian at some point (e.g the ltsp packages) - will be/are superseeded by newer Debian packages (e.g. user-sme wich provides the sami keyboard for Xfree86, this is already present in the newer Xfree86 packages) - should become unnecessary because of improvents to Debian (e.g debian-edu-config which uses cfengine to do custom configuration while this can't be done by debconf-preseeding, and which changes other packages' configuration files, and thus wouldn't be accepted into Debian) =20 > Furthermore, it does not contain 'Debian' in its title, so there is no > confusion. This is clearly a Debian-derivative, not a CDD. it doesn't have Debian in the name -> it's a Debian-derivative i.e having Debian in the name is a prerequisite for a CDD!?!=20 Surely you're joking? > Now, I'm not saying that Debian derivatives shouldn't exist. It is > important to acknowledge that they do, but at the same time work towards > eliminating, as much as possible, the need for their existence outside of > Debian main. =20 agreed >Not all reasons for being a derivative (or "Debian-based > distribution") can be eliminated (such as the inclusion of non-free or > contrib software). However, I believe the reasons for Skolelinux not > being a CDD can and will eventually be resolved. IMHO there are 2 main differences between a CDD and a Debian-derivative: 1. a CDD aims to improve Debian so that Debian will at some point include=20 everything needed to support the target-group and needs of the CDD (at whic= h=20 point it will become a Debian-subset). A Debian-derivative on the other han= d=20 doesn't have this inclusion into Debian as an objective. 2. the software provided by a CDD can be mixed freely with standard Debian= =20 package without causing problems. Whereas a Debian-derivative doesn't=20 (necessarily) ensure this. Skolelinux conforms to both 1. and 2. above -> is a CDD (in my opinion) Lindows (for instance) does not comply to 1. and 2. above -> is a=20 Debian-derivative. =2D --=20 Cheers, cobaco =20 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0OPH5ihPJ4ZiSrsRAtefAJ0dmZjI3vKWdXaXrlQGmGEjSl+ZKQCdGGn+ VKRGL4fLkUZOaCQuern023c=3D =3DPD/O =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Dec 6 04:20:11 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASYzM-0003Ca-00; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 03:44:36 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 1D441E93D; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 03:44:35 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B941E922 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 03:13:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from . cobaco@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [80.236.145.15] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.45 $ on Novell NetWare via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:08:39 -0700 From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:46:12 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <1070398707.1066.119.camel@kernel> <200312051201.02994.cobaco@linux.be> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312052146.12961.cobaco@linux.be> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.0 required=4.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_03_06, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: *** Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157970 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 03:44:35 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-12-05 13:01, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, cobaco wrote: > > On 2003-12-05 11:16, Andreas Tille wrote: > > > their fine work. I really love what they do and SkoleLinux is one of > > > the most impressive derivatives of Debian, but it just does not (yet) > > > fall under our definition.] > > > > huh ?! How do you figure that? > > Please read again my last two mails and assume that I know what SkoleLinux > is. I wasn't making that assumption (sorry if it seemed I was), I was pointing= =20 out some of the details of Skolelinux (which I did assume you aren't=20 completely familiar with), in the hope of pinpointing the exact point on=20 which we disagree (as I obviously do think of Skolelinux as a CDD). So given those details what makes you say Skolelinux isn't a CDD?=20 (I'm guessing "not everything used in Skolelinux is in Debian" _yet_) =2D --=20 Cheers, cobaco =20 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0O6U5ihPJ4ZiSrsRAuZOAJ92sLAWZoPUXzONb+xylPhryi8pSgCgjC/G akaUiZZr+przqw08Eqrjeo0=3D =3DlWSe =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Dec 6 04:23:09 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASZ07-0003L5-00; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 03:45:23 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 6C408EC8A; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 03:45:21 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09462E922 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 03:13:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from . cobaco@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [80.236.145.15] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.45 $ on Novell NetWare via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:08:35 -0700 From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:01:44 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20031205092045.E1C6AE897@murphy.debian.org> <20031205153620.GD13222@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> <20031205161021.GA4743@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <20031205161021.GA4743@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312052101.44746.cobaco@linux.be> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.0 required=4.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_03_06, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: *** Resent-Message-ID: <1raerB.A.yfH.xUa0_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157972 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 03:45:21 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-12-05 17:10, Tom wrote: > On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 11:36:20AM -0400, Ben Armstrong wrote: > > Then that discussion needs to be resolved so that a solution can be made > > that is in Debian main. > > It's useful to try to clarify the terms so people can speak the same > language, but as soon as you categorize anything somebody's going to > come out with something which fits in multiple categories. > > Anything which isn't just a subset of Debian will ultimately just be a > distraction, anything which doesn't _aim_ to be a subset of Debian ... =2D --=20 Cheers, cobaco =20 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0OQo5ihPJ4ZiSrsRAtdMAJ9+pixH8tplwe41HbDLxeWTE1EIeQCeMFTM w5JRUW5jLQLV75OHWLs8/oI=3D =3DW9jF =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Dec 6 05:49:53 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASac5-00071G-00; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 05:28:41 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 2CBA8E8D3; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 05:28:41 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from vsmtp1.tin.it (vsmtp1.tin.it [212.216.176.221]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA37BE89B for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 05:28:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from eddie.casa (80.116.78.32) by vsmtp1.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3FD077A50006A519; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:28:35 +0100 Received: from mitac.casa (mitac) [192.168.1.42] (mail) by eddie.casa with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AScgo-0005G9-00; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 14:41:42 +0100 Received: from enrico by mitac with local (Exim 4.24) id 1ASaby-0001UI-Gx; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 12:28:34 +0100 Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:28:34 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: Fraser Campbell Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - a Custom Debian Distribution Message-ID: <20031206112834.GA5668@mitac> References: <1070304201.11898.443.camel@zen8100a> <20031201203357.GE1952@wookimus.net> <20031202000529.GB850@cs.unibo.it> <200312031007.14403.fraser@wehave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200312031007.14403.fraser@wehave.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Enrico Zini X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157978 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 05:28:41 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 10:07:14AM -0500, Fraser Campbell wrote: > > I've just learnt of Cubit from South Africa: http://www.cubit.co.za/ > Is it free software? They don't seem to provide a link to the full text = of=20 > their license, it sounds free according to their license summary but I al= so=20 > see the statement "Cubit has only a very small yearly license fee and no= =20 > purchase cost". You're right. I had another look and it doesn't seem to be free software. I don't know them, so I don't know if they can be talked into freeing it. Well, there's always Gnu Enterprise, although it's not from Africa: apt-cache search gnu enterprise Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0b1i9LSwzHl+v6sRAv61AJ9rLF2p1ToF863DEu0i0J/OckFx2gCfQ8IR RWlF4VYYiU/NMUNYcX8HBuo= =VMyf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Dec 6 08:31:20 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1ASd56-0001UT-00; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 08:06:48 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id F1D35EF01; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:06:47 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from micha.hampshire.edu (micha.hampshire.edu [192.101.188.235]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1349EE1F for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:06:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha ([127.0.0.1] helo=kamna ident=mako) by micha.hampshire.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ASd4y-0007Zo-00 for ; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 09:06:40 -0500 Received: from mako by kamna with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1ASd4s-0000R4-00 for ; Sat, 06 Dec 2003 15:06:34 +0100 Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 15:06:34 +0100 From: "Benj. Mako Hill" To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) Message-ID: <20031206140634.GD1420@kamna> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20031205092045.E1C6AE897@murphy.debian.org> <20031205153620.GD13222@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> <200312052100.07892.cobaco@linux.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HnQK338I3UIa/qiP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200312052100.07892.cobaco@linux.be> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157985 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:06:47 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org --HnQK338I3UIa/qiP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 09:00:05PM +0100, cobaco wrote: > -> if you don't allow temporary solutions while low priority debconf > question get included, than there currently are no CDD's as > custom configuration is necessary to support a CDD's target group > out-of-the-box. This isn't totally true. Some CDDs are happy just working on a group of packages that weren't around before and allowing for a task, metapackage, or something similar. Low priority debconf questions are way of solving a "we want something other than the default *configuration* for a given set of packages" problem. This seems like a thing that many, but not necessary all, CDDs will want to do. Regards, Mako --=20 Benjamin Mako Hill mako@debian.org http://mako.yukidoke.org/ --HnQK338I3UIa/qiP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/0eJqic1LIWB1WeYRAqSDAJ4zoskiWeq1khKbv/lcsqMcgGauzQCg5tks 6Er/mJJHhYl/YVVLCEO5jjU= =QnA4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HnQK338I3UIa/qiP-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Dec 7 15:00:16 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AT5oW-0006l5-00; Sun, 07 Dec 2003 14:47:36 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 2A9B6EE33; Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:47:36 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.124]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5525EE29 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:47:31 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id hB7KlUH14112 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:47:30 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a4.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a4.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Sun Dec 7 21:47:30 2003 Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:47:17 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: The term "Custom Debian Distribution" (Was Re: [custom] The term "flavor" and encouraging work on Debian) In-Reply-To: <200312052140.07262.cobaco@linux.be> Message-Id: References: <200312042056.58953.cobaco@linux.be> <20031205143423.GI915@kamna> <200312052140.07262.cobaco@linux.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2003 20:39:30.0796 (UTC) FILETIME=[371122C0:01C3BD02] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/158063 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:47:36 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, cobaco wrote: > > That's why I feeled obliged to add the remark that I greatly appreciate > > the work of the SkoleLinux people and that they probably did more for > > Debian than any CDD is out of any question. > > In the above sentence you seem to refer to Skolelinux as a CDD , yet from > you're other replies it would seem you see them as a Debian-derivative. > This seems inconsistent (am I misintepreting something here?) I can't see why you think that I'm refering to SkoleLinux as CDD. For instance Joey Hess has done more for Debian than any CDD but Joey Hess is definitely no CDD. ;-) > -> you again seem to contradict yourself (this same problem for configuration > applies for all CDD's at this point I think) Well, I have to admit that I will now definitely stop spending my time in correcting your missinterpretations of my mails and continue working on Debian-Med. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Dec 12 11:39:53 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AUqJJ-0002Wh-00; Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:38:37 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 43808EF61; Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:38:37 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sanctuary.edennet (blk2-200-49.eastlink.ca [24.224.200.49]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1D6EFCB for ; Fri, 12 Dec 2003 09:52:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from synrg by sanctuary.edennet with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AUpau-0002CU-00 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:52:44 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:52:43 -0400 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: [custom] Localized CD with pruned locale data Message-ID: <20031212155243.GA7684@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Ben Armstrong X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/158304 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:38:37 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org CDDs may be tailored for a particular purpose, such as to distribute to a small group where the locales of all users is known (or assumed). In order to include the maximum useful material per media it would be useful in such cases to prune any unnecessary locale data provided by the included packages. However, to do so would be to damage the packages that provide that data. Is a CDD that is tailored in this fashion still "Debian"? Take, for example, a package with missing locales that is used by a user who desires a different locale. Such a user might be inclined to file a bug against the modified package, but the maintainer of the "buggy" package would probably not immediately recognize the cause of the problem, wasting their valuable time. Do mechanisms exist within Debian for providing such tailoring? Should they exist? Locales are only one example of "bloat"[0] that might be desirable to trim for a CDD. In general, how do we allow CDDs to be "pure Debian" and still make efficient use of media space? Ben Armstrong [0] It almost goes without saying that one person's bloat is another person's valuable feature. When you produce something for users that don't need a resource-consuming feature, the feature is bloat. -- ,-. nSLUG http://www.nslug.ns.ca synrg@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca \`' Debian http://www.debian.org synrg@debian.org ` [ gpg 395C F3A4 35D3 D247 1387 2D9E 5A94 F3CA 0B27 13C8 ] [ pgp 7F DA 09 4B BA 2C 0D E0 1B B1 31 ED C6 A9 39 4F ] From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Dec 18 13:30:15 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AX3Gh-0003Nm-00; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:53:03 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 7EDDDEEE0; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:53:03 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.188]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EFEFE8C9 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:53:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AX3Gb-0007eq-00; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:52:57 +0100 Received: from [80.142.163.55] (helo=fam-meskes.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AX3Gb-0008Pd-00; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:52:57 +0100 Received: by fam-meskes.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AF0B210EF16; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:52:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:52:51 +0100 From: Michael Meskes To: Zenaan Harkness Cc: "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" , discuss@server.userlinux.com Subject: Re: [custom] Debian Enterprise - packages Message-ID: <20031218185251.GA7349@feivel.fam-meskes.de> Mail-Followup-To: Zenaan Harkness , "debian-devel@lists.debian.org" , discuss@server.userlinux.com References: <1070423151.23088.212.camel@zen8100a> <1070423533.23088.225.camel@zen8100a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1070423533.23088.225.camel@zen8100a> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:da5cff6069dd6897c77170232368d0ba X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_NJABL,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <8KaUwB.A.wLF.Oef4_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/158848 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:53:03 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org [Late answer, but I just lacked the time to read all mails.] On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 02:52:13PM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 14:45, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > > As per the recommendations from Bruce Perens' User Linux paper > > http://userlinux.com/white_paper.html, this thread is to discuss the > ... > * Desktop Suite - GNOME (as more-Windows-like as KDE is, GNOME > definitely has greater momentum, with SUN and HP, and now Novell's > acquisition of Ximian and SUSE and corresponding statements - really, > there's no point fighting the tide on this one). I'm not sure I'd subscribe to this point of view, nor am I sure I even like it. We, as in Debian, do NOT go for a desktop suite just because it has momentum in the enterprise world. We never did. And as long as you call it enterprise DEBIAN there's still a large part of the debian spirit in this. Besides I won't even buy the situation as you paint it. I'm not sure what's the situation in your country but Germany certainly has been KDE territory ever since and I cannot see all those companies switching desktop suites. I for one have never been actively asked for Gnome, just for KDE so far. One final word, I strongly believe that the best thing free software has to offer is its freedom and that it is driven by the community. KDE still is mostly driven by a community not by companies, so why does this sponsoring momentum change anything? Note that I do not want to get into a technical discussion as I've used both over the years. Why can't we just let the customers decide? Michael -- Michael Meskes Email: Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De ICQ: 179140304, AIM/Yahoo: michaelmeskes, Jabber: meskes@jabber.org Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL! From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Jul 25 10:58:43 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19g4xv-0004Pn-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:58:43 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 3FF4C1F6C5; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:58:43 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from minerva.hungry.com (ngt035.uio.no [129.240.242.35]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25EB31F4E9 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:58:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pere by minerva.hungry.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19g4xj-0006G8-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:58:31 +0200 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions From: Petter Reinholdtsen Message-Id: Sender: Petter Reinholdtsen Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:58:31 +0200 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148226 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:58:43 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2514 Lines: 61 As discussed during debcamp in Oslo, all the groups/projects making debian based custom distributions should join together to find common solutions to the common problems. This is a start, with a few of the issues that Skolelinux had and solved. - Automatic installation Using the new debian-installer and a few hooks to get the partitioning we want and the packages we want installed into the hard drive. I'm fairly satisfied with this solution. - Installing the list of package we want Using meta-packages (ie packages consisting only of dependencies) to install the packages we want. Used hooks in base-config to get them installed during first time installation. Not too happy about the meta-package approach, as it is fragile and break easily if some dependency is unavailable. - Preconfigure the packages we install Using two different approaches: (1) Load answers into the debconf database before the packages are installed using some home-make scripts, and (2) rewrite/replace configuration files using cfengine at the end of the installation if the package is unable to configure what we want using debconf. I'm fairly satisfied with this solution, but am not sure if the method used to feed the debconf database is the best available. I believe the best option would be to extend all the packages we use to make it possible to configure everything we need using debconf answers. - Automatic X configuration Using home-brewed script filling the debconf database, and then call dexconf from the xfree86 package to generate the configuration file. The HW detection info is fetched from various packages (discover, kudzu, detect, etc). - CD building Using a heavily patched version of debian-cd to create the CDs. Most of the patches is to include the d-i boot floppies. This should now be possible with the standard version of debian-cd, but no one in Skolelinux have taken the time to update our copy of the scripts. - Configure default language for all users Using a custom script to rewrite config files to modify the default language/locale. - Making simpler KDE menus Working on a system to make simple menus and change the menu depending on the users group membership. There are probably others, but this should be a good starting point. Are these issues common to other custom distros? How did you solve the problem? From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Jul 25 11:46:13 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19g5ht-0000Vx-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:46:13 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 103F31F60D; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:45:57 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from head.linpro.no (head.linpro.no [80.232.36.1]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B371F8F1 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:28:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from echo.linpro.no ([80.232.36.157]) by head.linpro.no with esmtp (Exim 4.14 #1 (Debian)) id 19g5Qi-0004QP-2b for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 18:28:28 +0200 Received: from tore by echo.linpro.no with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19g5Qh-0001FB-00 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 18:28:27 +0200 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions References: From: Tore Anderson Organization: Absent. Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 18:28:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Petter Reinholdtsen's message of "Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:58:31 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19g5Qi-0004QP-2b*YhJ9skVqhH2* X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.5 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148233 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:45:57 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1424 Lines: 31 * Petter Reinholdtsen > - Preconfigure the packages we install > > Using two different approaches: (1) Load answers into the debconf > database before the packages are installed using some home-make > scripts, and (2) rewrite/replace configuration files using > cfengine at the end of the installation if the package is unable > to configure what we want using debconf. I'm fairly satisfied > with this solution, but am not sure if the method used to feed > the debconf database is the best available. I believe the best > option would be to extend all the packages we use to make it > possible to configure everything we need using debconf answers. God, No! There's far too many Debconf questions being asked by various Debian packages already, IMNSHO. If something like this should be implemented, I'd like to see these questions only be asked at reconfigure time, or not asked at all. That way Skulelinux could preseed the Debconf database and get the package working the way you want, while I can install Debian without going nuts about all the questions I'm asked. However, the best solution I can think of right now would be to implement diversion support for conffiles in dpkg, so you could create a 'skolelinux-config' package which contained (or generated) configuration files attuned to Skulelinux, where necessary. -- Tore Anderson From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Jul 25 12:55:24 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19g6mq-0001Yz-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:55:24 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id A43D11F7F2; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:55:24 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED78B1F473 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:54:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [212.238.157.49] (helo=baardmijt) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19g6mI-000KUn-00 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:54:50 +0000 Received: from bonenpikster.drs.p ([192.168.13.5] helo=bonenpikster) by baardmijt with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19g6mH-0004lO-00 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:54:49 +0200 Received: from bonenpikster ([127.0.0.1]) by bonenpikster with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19g6mE-0000ke-00 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:54:46 +0200 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:54:46 +0200 From: Tim Dijkstra To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-Id: <20030725195446.582869fb.newsuser@famdijkstra.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148247 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:55:24 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1224 Lines: 31 On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 18:28:27 +0200 Tore Anderson wrote: > * Petter Reinholdtsen > > > - Preconfigure the packages we install > > > > I believe the best option would be to extend all the packages > > we use to make it possible to configure everything we need > > using debconf answers. > > God, No! There's far too many Debconf questions being asked by > various Debian packages already, IMNSHO. > > If something like this should be implemented, I'd like to see these > questions only be asked at reconfigure time, or not asked at all. > That way Skulelinux could preseed the Debconf database and get the > package working the way you want, while I can install Debian without > going nuts about all the questions I'm asked. > If is debconf used 'the right way' (tm) it is only a blessing. The only thing maintainers should do is assign the right priority to a question (Well and of course take care that all changes to configuration files are preserved). That way people that want automation or just like questions get what they want and people that want to rewrite configuration files just set a high priority and get a nice and quite apt-get update/install. grts Tim From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Jul 25 14:08:18 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19g7vO-0003vq-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:08:18 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 3D0B11FB31; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:08:18 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451FA1F47C for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:08:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail-mx3.uio.no ([129.240.10.44]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 19g7vH-0003jH-00 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:08:11 +0200 Received: from [129.240.201.2] (helo=goggins.uio.no) by mail-mx3.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19g7vE-0003Zu-ID for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:08:08 +0200 Received: from saruman.uio.no ([129.240.201.202]) by goggins.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 19g7vE-0002xj-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:08:08 +0200 Received: from pre by saruman.uio.no with local (Exim 2.12 #7) id 19g7vD-0003EF-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:08:07 +0200 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:08:07 +0200 From: Petter Reinholdtsen To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030725210807.A8228@saruman.uio.no> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from tore@linpro.no on Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 06:28:27PM +0200 Sender: Petter Reinholdtsen X-MailScanner-Information: This message has been scanned for viruses/spam. Contact postmaster@uio.no if you have questions about this scanning. X-UiO-MailScanner: No virus found X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.5 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148254 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:08:18 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 522 Lines: 12 [Tore Anderson] > God, No! There's far too many Debconf questions being asked by > various Debian packages already, IMNSHO. There is no reason for you to get religious over this question. The nice thing about debconf is that there is no _need_ to present all options as questions. One can like ntp fetch the value from debconf without asking the question first. This will make it possible to control the details of the package configuration without needing to ask a lot of questions to the user while installing it. From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Jul 25 16:46:05 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gAO5-0003NO-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:46:05 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id AC3E41F551; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:46:05 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from twinette.migus.eu.org (dyn-212-83-189-9.ppp.tiscali.fr [212.83.189.9]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77471F3DE for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:27:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from migus by twinette.migus.eu.org with local (Exim 4.20) id 19gA7U-0005N4-Ij for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:28:56 +0200 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:28:56 +0200 From: Pierre Machard To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030725212856.GD11123@twinette.migus.eu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WhfpMioaduB5tiZL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: TuxFamily.org X-URL: http://migus.tuxfamily.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148261 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:46:05 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1324 Lines: 46 --WhfpMioaduB5tiZL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 05:58:31PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: [...] > - Configure default language for all users >=20 > Using a custom script to rewrite config files to modify the > default language/locale. Why not having multiple languages per user? I mean for example: 1) French 2) German 3) English That means first displays me info in French, if the translation is missing, then use German, finaly if neither French and German are available displays English I am very enthusiast about the items you exposed. Cheers, --=20 Pierre Machard TuxFamily.org techmag.info +33(0)668 178 365 http://migus.tuxfamily.org/gpg.txt GPG: 1024D/23706F87 : B906 A53F 84E0 49B6 6CF7 82C2 B3A0 2D66 2370 6F87 --WhfpMioaduB5tiZL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/IaEYs6AtZiNwb4cRAoOQAKCAOflEF+/dodCoZzE6qYij3NfY6gCgjxIV LVGcEkxY01i5BoT1o0LflY4= =hXVw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WhfpMioaduB5tiZL-- From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Jul 25 16:46:24 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gAON-0003On-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:46:23 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id AD3571F628; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:46:23 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from head.linpro.no (head.linpro.no [80.232.36.1]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B3F21F3DE for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:29:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from echo.linpro.no ([80.232.36.157]) by head.linpro.no with esmtp (Exim 4.14 #1 (Debian)) id 19gA83-0001sE-HJ for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:29:31 +0200 Received: from tore by echo.linpro.no with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19gA83-0001Qi-00 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:29:31 +0200 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions References: <20030725210807.A8228@saruman.uio.no> From: Tore Anderson Organization: Absent. Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:29:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030725210807.A8228@saruman.uio.no> (Petter Reinholdtsen's message of "Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:08:07 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.6 (-----) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19gA83-0001sE-HJ*s8bpQCaFdkc* X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.5 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148262 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:46:23 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1613 Lines: 37 * Tore Anderson >> God, No! There's far too many Debconf questions being asked by >> various Debian packages already, IMNSHO. * Petter Reinholdtsen > There is no reason for you to get religious over this question. > > The nice thing about debconf is that there is no _need_ to present all > options as questions. One can like ntp fetch the value from debconf > without asking the question first. This will make it possible to > control the details of the package configuration without needing to > ask a lot of questions to the user while installing it. Which is why I suggested these "questions" should not be shown to the user at all, but merely exist as default values that could be over-ridden by custom distributions such as Skulelinux. However, doing so would remove the conffile status of many configuration files, which I firmly (perhaps not religious, though) believe is a bad thing. If a configuration file *can* be a conffile, it should. I am sceptical to endorsing use of Debconf for packages that can be shipped with sane defaults (even though these might not suit Skulelinux well), as I've seen far too many packages which ask Debconf questions way out of proportion, carelessly ignore policy 11.7.3 (cf. the "manage with Debconf madness" thread), etc. So even though it is possible to configure as much as possible through Debconf without actually asking too many questions and still caring for user modifications, I seriously this is the way it actually will be done. Thus I would rather see Skulelinux divert away unfitting conffiles. -- Tore Anderson From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Jul 25 21:32:28 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gErE-0001On-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:32:28 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 202AB1F4CF; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:32:28 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from kitenet.net (client132.fre.communitycolo.net [64.62.161.42]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F3C51F4C2 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:32:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dragon.kitenet.net (pm3naxs19-198.access.naxs.com [216.98.94.198]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client CN "Joey Hess", Issuer "Joey Hess" (verified OK)) by kitenet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B0B0AA592 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 02:32:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from joey by dragon.kitenet.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19gEsc-0003s4-00 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:33:54 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:33:54 -0400 From: Joey Hess To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030726023354.GA14581@dragon.kitenet.net> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Joey Hess X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.5 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148272 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:32:28 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2894 Lines: 73 --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > - Installing the list of package we want >=20 > Using meta-packages (ie packages consisting only of dependencies) > to install the packages we want. Used hooks in base-config to > get them installed during first time installation. Not too happy > about the meta-package approach, as it is fragile and break > easily if some dependency is unavailable. If you need to generate your own Packages files, which you might want to do for various reasons, you could instead add Task: overrides to the Packages files. Then use 'tasksel install' (that command may need to be fixed first) to install the task. This would sidestep the dependency problem.=20 Alternatively, you could get a similar effect by making the task package only recommend most of the stuff in the task (except perhaps a few key packages), and installing it with aptitude, which can pull in recommends. I am actually thinking about switching tasks back over to real packages using recommends like this, a few years down the road. I would be interested in the results of a test case. > - Preconfigure the packages we install >=20 > Using two different approaches: (1) Load answers into the debconf > database before the packages are installed using some home-make > scripts, and (2) rewrite/replace configuration files using > cfengine at the end of the installation if the package is unable > to configure what we want using debconf. I'm fairly satisfied > with this solution, but am not sure if the method used to feed > the debconf database is the best available. I believe the best > option would be to extend all the packages we use to make it > possible to configure everything we need using debconf answers. As discussed at DebConf, I would like to make debconf have better support for pre-populating a database, when I find some time to work on it. > - Configure default language for all users >=20 > Using a custom script to rewrite config files to modify the > default language/locale. Could this fit into the language-env package somehow? Debian needs to go a few steps further in providing a localised system after install, with language and locale set to the install langage. At the moment language-env only displays a stupid debconf message when installed, and allows per-user configuration, but it seems the place to put a global config too. --=20 see shy jo --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/IeiS3xwsXJZQhyMRAljYAKCv1TmsZn2C8jv+9SkRhr8xgOkLMACeORDu ctKmVmvcr3gsuc2p1P8S5DU= =fl5S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Jul 26 02:17:28 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gJJ2-00044U-00; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 02:17:28 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id B52171F583; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 02:17:28 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from zigzag.lvk.cs.msu.su (zigzag.lvk.cs.msu.su [158.250.17.23]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9CE1F4BD for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 02:17:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from news by zigzag.lvk.cs.msu.su with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19gJIt-0005JS-00 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:17:19 +0400 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Exported-By: leafnode news-to-mail gateway (group mlist.debian.devel) From: "Nikita V. Youshchenko" Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:51:24 +0400 References: User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: Sender: news X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,USER_AGENT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: <4UK1kC.A.BFE.IsiI_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148280 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 02:17:28 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 4084 Lines: 86 It's really good news that someone is writing on this. Since Debian is somewhat hard to install and configure for unexperienced user, but otherwise Debian is The Best :), I guess many people are doing custom Debain installation tools. > - Preconfigure the packages we install > > Using two different approaches: (1) Load answers into the debconf > database before the packages are installed using some home-make > scripts, and (2) rewrite/replace configuration files using > cfengine at the end of the installation if the package is unable > to configure what we want using debconf. I'm fairly satisfied > with this solution, but am not sure if the method used to feed > the debconf database is the best available. I believe the best > option would be to extend all the packages we use to make it > possible to configure everything we need using debconf answers. I'm not sure that everything can be done this way. E.g. in a "distribution" (better to say - custom installation CD) I maintain here I expect users to use kppp to connect to their ISPs. To make this work by default, I have to comment out whole contents of /etc/ppp/options during the last stage of the installation. I don't think that pppd maintainer will agree that such thing should be provided by debconf. Another thing is replacing "#!/bin/sh" by "#!/bin/bash --login" in /etc/kde3/kdm/Xsession (and other dm's Xsession files). This is the only way I know to make login shell startup files evaluated during X logins. This issue is known for ages, but it seems that people who make decisions don't thing it is necessary. So this isn't likely to be fixed with debconf questions. > - Automatic X configuration > > Using home-brewed script filling the debconf database, and then > call dexconf from the xfree86 package to generate the > configuration file. The HW detection info is fetched from > various packages (discover, kudzu, detect, etc). Could you give an URL to such script? I need one badly. Unfortunatly, discover/mdetect/read-edid based dexconf is far from perfect, especcialy in detecting capabilities of the monitor. And hadrware detection is not what I am an expert in :(. > - CD building > > Using a heavily patched version of debian-cd to create the CDs. > Most of the patches is to include the d-i boot floppies. This > should now be possible with the standard version of debian-cd, > but no one in Skolelinux have taken the time to update our copy > of the scripts. The thing I really don't like in debian-cd is the requirement to have a local mirror. I prefer to use apt-get (+apt-proxy) to fetch packages while building CD. I have a (currently ugly) script to do so; if anyone is interested I can (try to) clean it up and make it available. > - Configure default language for all users > > Using a custom script to rewrite config files to modify the > default language/locale. Seems that feeding correct value to debconf for "locales" package fixes this. At least for me. Currently I install "locales" and "console-cyrrillic" (with all dependencies) very early - I modified debootstrap to do so. Default values to debconf database also are written by modified debootstrap. So I have russian properly set up already when base-config runs. > There are probably others, but this should be a good starting point. > Are these issues common to other custom distros? Main problems I current have are related to hardware detection and configuration. Users want to configure their X display easily (resolution, frequency, etc). E.g. from KDE control center. They complain that other distros let them to do so. I am not familar with distros other than Debian so I don't know what to do. Also users want all their hardware to be detected and configured automatically. Well, discover does something, but again, users complain that XXX is not detected/configured/working properly, while everything is ok with other distros. Maybe there are better tools? Please share your experiense. From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Jul 26 03:59:30 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gKtm-0001eZ-00; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 03:59:30 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id CB7431F8A7; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 03:59:30 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AE871F897 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 03:59:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from frmug.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by frmug.org (8.12.9/8.11.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with ESMTP id h6Q8xIIY082049 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256 bits) verified NO) for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:59:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from bubulle@kheops.frmug.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) with UUCP id h6Q8xHK9082048 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:59:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mykerinos.kheops.frmug.org (unknown [192.168.1.3]) by kheops.kheops.frmug.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCDBD4052 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:53:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mykerinos.kheops.frmug.org (Postfix, from userid 7426) id 1FF73D075; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 09:38:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 09:38:26 +0200 From: Christian Perrier To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030726073825.GC3549@mykerinos> References: <20030725210807.A8228@saruman.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-message-flag: Outlook is a good virus spreading tool. It can send mail, too. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.5 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148284 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 03:59:30 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1123 Lines: 28 Quoting Tore Anderson (tore@linpro.no): > well), as I've seen far too many packages which ask Debconf questions > way out of proportion, carelessly ignore policy 11.7.3 (cf. the "manage > with Debconf madness" thread), etc. So even though it is possible to I hope you didn't forgot to file bugs for this.... For sure, there *is* a real debconf madness. During the debconf translation work we often find packages which make a huge abuse of debconf questions, asking for everything to be configured, or showing useless silly notes. Maintainers also often misuse priorities. You will event find packages which have only "high" priority questions. These deserve bug reports. The "switch to po-debconf" current work offers us a good opportunity for reviewing the use of debconf questions. When I submit a patch for po-debconf switch, I sometimes have to suggest removing some templates...or lower thepriority of others. Having a lot of debconf questions is not bad by itself. However, the majority should then be marked of "low" priority as long as they are notes to users and/or Choices with reasonable defaults. From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Jul 26 10:25:03 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gQut-0006Vp-00; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:25:03 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 9FE5B1F8DA; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:25:03 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from kitenet.net (client132.fre.communitycolo.net [64.62.161.42]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 834951F45E for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:24:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dragon.kitenet.net (pm3naxs19-198.access.naxs.com [216.98.94.198]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client CN "Joey Hess", Issuer "Joey Hess" (verified OK)) by kitenet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF326AA588 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:24:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from joey by dragon.kitenet.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19gQvX-0005eh-00 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:25:43 -0400 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:25:43 -0400 From: Joey Hess To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030726152543.GA21494@dragon.kitenet.net> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Joey Hess X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.5 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148307 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:25:03 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2270 Lines: 63 --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nikita V. Youshchenko wrote: > E.g. in a "distribution" (better to say - custom installation CD) I maint= ain > here I expect users to use kppp to connect to their ISPs. To make this wo= rk > by default, I have to comment out whole contents of /etc/ppp/options duri= ng > the last stage of the installation. I don't think that pppd maintainer wi= ll > agree that such thing should be provided by debconf. >=20 > Another thing is replacing "#!/bin/sh" by "#!/bin/bash --login" in > /etc/kde3/kdm/Xsession (and other dm's Xsession files). This is the only > way I know to make login shell startup files evaluated during X logins. > This issue is known for ages, but it seems that people who make decisions > don't thing it is necessary. So this isn't likely to be fixed with debconf > questions. This is the kind of thing that dropping a script in /usr/lib/base-config can help you with. > The thing I really don't like in debian-cd is the requirement to have a > local mirror. I prefer to use apt-get (+apt-proxy) to fetch packages while > building CD. I have a (currently ugly) script to do so; if anyone is > interested I can (try to) clean it up and make it available.=20 I would much rather see debian-cd work that way. > Seems that feeding correct value to debconf for "locales" package fixes > this. At least for me. >=20 > Currently I install "locales" and "console-cyrrillic" (with all > dependencies) very early - I modified debootstrap to do so. Default values > to debconf database also are written by modified debootstrap. So I have > russian properly set up already when base-config runs. base-config 1.41 and above modify /etc/locale.gen and run locale-gen to set up the installation locale before it goes interactive. If this doesn't work I would appreciate bug reports and patches in this area. --=20 see shy jo --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/Ip133xwsXJZQhyMRAhQjAJ9OVC168iwIu3V3H9Urnr5fLodqwQCdGwM+ I6Y42z2AJfoDnKhJ06P4Ryc= =M058 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Jul 26 10:56:32 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gRPM-0000j4-00; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:56:32 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 7D4F71F7A5; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:56:32 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from surfeu.at (mailbox.surfeu.at [212.197.128.120]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F291F6C0 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:56:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [81.5.252.189] (HELO downhill.univie.ac.at) by surfeu.at (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with ESMTP-TLS id 55848921 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:56:25 +0200 Received: from ametzler by downhill.univie.ac.at with local (Exim 4.20) id 19gRKZ-0002lH-C4 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:51:35 +0200 From: Andreas Metzler Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: Mail-Followup-To: X-Archive: encrypt X-GPG-Fingerprint: BCF7 1345 BE42 B5B8 1A57 EE09 1D33 9C65 8B8D 7663 X-Face: &b=,INK@Jj\Yt<7362+W"u Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:51:35 +0200 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,USER_AGENT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: <0ev08D.A.QoH.wSqI_@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148308 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:56:32 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 821 Lines: 26 Nikita V. Youshchenko wrote: [...] > Another thing is replacing "#!/bin/sh" by "#!/bin/bash --login" in > /etc/kde3/kdm/Xsession (and other dm's Xsession files). This is the only > way I know to make login shell startup files evaluated during X logins. > This issue is known for ages, but it seems that people who make decisions > don't thing it is necessary. So this isn't likely to be fixed with debconf > questions. [...] cat < /etc/X11/Xsession.d/60local_userenvironment if [ -r /etc/profile ] ;then . /etc/profile fi if [ -r $HOME/.profile ] ; then . $HOME/.profile fi EOF This'll work for all display-managers that use the (Debian-)standard /etc/X11/Xsession.d/. Introducing an ~/.environment which would be evaluated by pam_env would really be nice. cu andreas From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Jul 26 14:09:54 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gUQU-0000KQ-00; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:09:54 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id D4E4F1F60C; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:09:54 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from dat.etsit.upm.es (dat.etsit.upm.es [138.100.17.73]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 37A711F49D for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:09:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 30285 invoked by uid 1013); 26 Jul 2003 19:09:26 -0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:09:26 +0200 From: Javier =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fern=E1ndez-Sanguino_Pe=F1a?= To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030726190926.GA29709@dat.etsit.upm.es> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ew6BAiZeqk4r7MaW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.5 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148313 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:09:54 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1256 Lines: 53 --ew6BAiZeqk4r7MaW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 26, 2003 at 05:51:35PM +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote: > cat < /etc/X11/Xsession.d/60local_userenvironment > if [ -r /etc/profile ] ;then > . /etc/profile > fi > if [ -r $HOME/.profile ] ; then > . $HOME/.profile > fi > EOF >=20 > This'll work for all display-managers that use the (Debian-)standard > /etc/X11/Xsession.d/. That's a very interesting approach! I did not know this was possible when I= =20 sent additional information to #147091. Maybe that's something that=20 language-env (or user-XX) should do upon installation to set the proper=20 locale for X environments also. >=20 > Introducing an ~/.environment which would be evaluated by pam_env would > really be nice. Isn't /etc/environment read too? Because that is what base-config modifies= =20 IIRC. Regards Javi --ew6BAiZeqk4r7MaW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/ItHmsandgtyBSwkRAiA/AJ9vMu8BjJY+7Qlt7rTHm4LR1zVh3QCdHRw4 CJRNSfAYoBP4cYAYVmJ6ciw= =ADiU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ew6BAiZeqk4r7MaW-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Jul 26 15:08:08 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gVKo-0004WL-00; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:08:06 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 69F691F634; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:08:06 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from surfeu.at (mailbox.surfeu.at [212.197.128.120]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42F51F425 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:08:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [81.5.248.91] (HELO downhill.univie.ac.at) by surfeu.at (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with ESMTP-TLS id 55858440 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 22:07:59 +0200 Received: from ametzler by downhill.univie.ac.at with local (Exim 4.20) id 19gUf1-0005JP-6j for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:24:55 +0200 From: Andreas Metzler Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20030726190926.GA29709@dat.etsit.upm.es> Mail-Followup-To: X-Archive: encrypt X-GPG-Fingerprint: BCF7 1345 BE42 B5B8 1A57 EE09 1D33 9C65 8B8D 7663 X-Face: &b=,INK@Jj\Yt<7362+W"u Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:24:55 +0200 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,USER_AGENT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148315 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:08:06 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 370 Lines: 14 Javier Fern=E1ndez-Sanguino Pe=F1a wrote: [...] >> Introducing an ~/.environment which would be evaluated by pam_env woul= d >> really be nice. > Isn't /etc/environment read too? Because that is what base-config modif= ies=20 > IIRC. Yes or no ;-) Currently pam_env does read /etc/environment but it does not read ~/.environment. cu andreas From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Jul 26 19:24:21 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gZKn-0004MR-00; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:24:21 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4FA881F836; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:24:21 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com (protactinium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.176]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5C61F83D for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:03:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from host217-35-31-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([217.35.31.188] helo=riva.lab.dotat.at) by protactinium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 19gZ0N-0003Xm-00 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 01:03:16 +0100 Received: from cjwatson by riva.lab.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) for debian-devel@lists.debian.org id 19gZ0F-0000Pq-00; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 01:03:07 +0100 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 01:03:07 +0100 From: Colin Watson To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030727000307.GA1067@riva.ucam.org> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20030726190926.GA29709@dat.etsit.upm.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.0 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, RCVD_IN_UNCONFIRMED_DSBL,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148318 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:24:21 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 702 Lines: 19 On Sat, Jul 26, 2003 at 09:24:55PM +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote: > Javier Fern?ndez-Sanguino Pe?a wrote: [somebody broke attributions here] > >> Introducing an ~/.environment which would be evaluated by pam_env would > >> really be nice. > > > Isn't /etc/environment read too? Because that is what base-config modifies > > IIRC. > > Yes or no ;-) Currently pam_env does read /etc/environment but it does > not read ~/.environment. Yow. Guess I'd better get round to renaming my ~/.environment (which is a shell script, definitely not something suitable for reading by pam_env) sometime soon then ... -- Colin Watson [cjwatson@flatline.org.uk] From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Jul 26 19:29:28 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gZPk-0004fB-00; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:29:28 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 3B67F1F861; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:29:28 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from joseki.proulx.com (joseki.proulx.com [216.17.153.58]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4601A1F86B for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:29:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from misery.proulx.com (misery.proulx.com [192.168.1.108]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3ADC4B41E for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 18:29:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: by misery.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 96E758A2B5; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 18:29:15 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 18:29:15 -0600 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030727002915.GA25098@misery.proulx.com> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: bob@proulx.com (Bob Proulx) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.5 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148319 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:29:28 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 5741 Lines: 137 --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andreas Metzler wrote: > Nikita V. Youshchenko wrote: > [...] > > Another thing is replacing "#!/bin/sh" by "#!/bin/bash --login" in > > /etc/kde3/kdm/Xsession (and other dm's Xsession files). This is the only > > way I know to make login shell startup files evaluated during X logins. > > This issue is known for ages, but it seems that people who make decisio= ns > > don't thing it is necessary. So this isn't likely to be fixed with debc= onf > > questions. That is one of the FAQs on the KDE site. http://www.kde.org/documentation/faq/configure.html#id2913380 9.7. KDE (kdm) does not read my .bash_profile!". The login managersxdm and kdm do not run a login shell, so .profile, .bash_profile, etc. are not sourced. When the user logs in, xdm runs Xstartup as root and then Xsession as user. So the normal practice is to add statements in Xsession to source the user profile. Please edit your Xsession and .xsession files This leads one to suggest what Andreas suggested: > cat < /etc/X11/Xsession.d/60local_userenvironment > if [ -r /etc/profile ] ;then > . /etc/profile > fi > if [ -r $HOME/.profile ] ; then > . $HOME/.profile > fi > EOF >=20 > This'll work for all display-managers that use the (Debian-)standard > /etc/X11/Xsession.d/. I originally went down this path as well. I thought the same thing and implemented the same solution. (I put it in 95user_env so that it was very late in the process.) But there are some problems with doing this. 1. The Xsession is currently run in 'set -e' mode and any non-zero return value from a command will stop the shell process. Running in 'set -e' mode is not a normal mode for running a .profile. Many users will execute commands which will have a non-zero return code. This is not an error. This is just by normal script operation. The effect is that the user cannot log in. 2. Many users will source /etc/bash_completion in their startup file. That should be fine if they are running bash. But the Xsession scripts are running as /bin/sh and it will not be happy parsing bash_completion. The effect is that the user cannot log in. 3. Many users do not use .profile but instead use .bash_profile, .zprofile, .login, etc. Which means that suddenly Xsession needs to know about not only the filename of every viable shell but also the syntax of every viable shell. The effect is that some users do not get their startup environment set up while others do. After having gone through the experience of implementing this and having many users suddenly unable to log in I have new appreciation for the problems the KDE developers face. If they pull in the user's environment then problems there will prevent users from being able to log in. The user won't be happy, even if it is their fault, and the KDE developers will get a bug report even though it is not their problem. (Yes I know the user can either console login or failsafe login and fix their problem. But assumes the user knows it is their problem. It also assumes that the user wants to add workarounds to their startup files to control functionality between KDE login and other logins. I know I don't want to do that myself.) I did not originally agree with the KDE decision not to source the user environment. I was dismayed to see that I was not getting my environment. But I now agree with their choice not to load the user files by default. Because without loading other files then a user can select KDE from the login manager and log in and any problems in that path are solely a KDE problem. If KDE works then they are in. But as soon as you open it up to loading user files you are opening yourself up to an unbounded list of perfectly valid user configurations which cause problems, such as sourcing bash_completion, which will prevent the user from logging in. Is there no hope? Yes there is hope. I think there is a middle ground. The answer I am happy with and have implemented is providing a user $HOME/.xsession. Here is what I use. #!/bin/sh PATH=3D$HOME/bin:$PATH:. exec x-session-manager That is all of the fixup I need but it does provide the hook to do any customization that is desired. Actually, I personally put /usr/sbin and /sbin in the PATH too. But I don't default users to that. If someone knows they can do it easily enough. Additionally since I use fvwm I start it instead of kde. #!/bin/sh PATH=3D$PATH:/usr/sbin:/sbin PATH=3D$HOME/bin:$PATH:. exec fvwm With this in place I should give a clarification of the login manager process. Let me give a typical example. The menu selection will allow the user to choose default, failsafe, kde. Picking default gets you the $HOME/.xsession file if one exists. In the example above I get my selection fvwm. If a user picks kde then the login manager does NOT run the users's $HOME/.xsession file and instead just starts up KDE in the way that it does now without sourcing any user environment. The "default" menu selection is always what you want when you want to run the $HOME/.xsession file. The "KDE" menu selection is what you want when you suspect a problem with the user environment and want to avoid it for debugging or other purposes. Bob --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/Ixzb0pRcO8E2ULYRAulOAJ9Et8REE+6dX9GQKWBpTTF32dVkHQCdEENr KYBLYfjIrVGFUOZqdJJtW6A= =2jcm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Jul 26 23:47:11 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gdR9-00065H-00; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:47:11 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id AA9B01F48B; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:47:11 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from zigzag.lvk.cs.msu.su (zigzag.lvk.cs.msu.su [158.250.17.23]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2099E1F482 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:47:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from news by zigzag.lvk.cs.msu.su with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19gdR3-0006nn-00 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 08:47:05 +0400 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Exported-By: leafnode news-to-mail gateway (group mlist.debian.devel) From: "Nikita V. Youshchenko" Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 08:30:33 +0400 References: User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: <9hkvfb.l79.ln@127.0.0.1> Sender: news X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,USER_AGENT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148321 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:47:11 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 947 Lines: 28 > Nikita V. Youshchenko wrote: > [...] >> Another thing is replacing "#!/bin/sh" by "#!/bin/bash --login" in >> /etc/kde3/kdm/Xsession (and other dm's Xsession files). This is the only >> way I know to make login shell startup files evaluated during X logins. >> This issue is known for ages, but it seems that people who make decisions >> don't thing it is necessary. So this isn't likely to be fixed with >> debconf questions. > [...] > > cat < /etc/X11/Xsession.d/60local_userenvironment > if [ -r /etc/profile ] ;then > . /etc/profile > fi > if [ -r $HOME/.profile ] ; then > . $HOME/.profile > fi > EOF > > This'll work for all display-managers that use the (Debian-)standard > /etc/X11/Xsession.d/. Sterictly saying, this is broken. /etc/profile, ~/.profile and other login shell rc files should be read by logic shells only, so if a user types "startx" on the console, they should not be read. From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Jul 27 06:06:14 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19gjLy-00015k-00; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 06:06:14 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 634FF1F53D; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 06:06:14 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from indyio.rz.uni-saarland.de (indyio.rz.uni-saarland.de [134.96.7.3]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3891F506 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 05:47:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from planck.df7cb.de (d123.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de [134.96.56.123]) by indyio.rz.uni-saarland.de (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h6RAl8qk4767046 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:47:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: by df7cb.de via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.114) Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:47:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:47:08 +0200 From: Christoph Berg To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030727104708.GB859@heim-d.uni-sb.de> References: <9hkvfb.l79.ln@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wzJLGUyc3ArbnUjN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9hkvfb.l79.ln@127.0.0.1> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2,REFERENCES,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148337 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 06:06:14 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1826 Lines: 56 --wzJLGUyc3ArbnUjN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions ["Nikita V. Yo= ushchenko" , Sun, Jul 27, 2003 at 08:30:33AM +0400, <9hkvf= b.l79.ln@127.0.0.1>] > > if [ -r $HOME/.profile ] ; then > > . $HOME/.profile > > fi >=20 > Sterictly saying, this is broken. > /etc/profile, ~/.profile and other login shell rc files should be read by > logic shells only, so if a user types "startx" on the console, they should > not be read. I've got stuff in my .bash_profile that I really only want on login (finger, mailq on the mailserver etc.), and in fact I would be very surprised if it were executed (in that case I could as well make a link =2Exsession -> .bash_profile :-P). My .bashrc is much more suitable to be included in .xsession, and in fact I do that. The problem that one doesn't want things like .bash_completion read there is easily solved by # check whether we run interactively [ "$PS1" ] || return (Something like that exists in Debian's /etc/skel/.bash_profile.) So test for reading ~/.bashrc should be done first in X startup files, only reading ~/{.bash_,}profile if the former doesn't exist. Christoph --=20 Christoph Berg , http://www.df7cb.de Wohnheim D, 2405, Universit=E4t des Saarlandes, 0681/9657944 --wzJLGUyc3ArbnUjN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBPyOtrLRrkjttir5xAQFzvwP/ckwtCDhXQ3GfGrOhtme1MhA/q8+i+yr2 o8Clx+b0nSIDV0hnEfvKWMykUIStOZXGWw6svEJ6JJEMK/Gp3/DDacjZgdLFLdTv NfwjvG8kLv/fmWtSZ8Of7GbVd4fOjSXIj4N/Qt/frY1tNYw6DRMU3IQqzyF7Q5qF km6Df7MTdUQ= =Bhf6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wzJLGUyc3ArbnUjN-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Jul 27 14:45:22 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19grSM-0004ct-00; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:45:22 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id A9D2C1F8A8; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:45:22 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from chrystal.opal.dhs.org (n02p127.netcamp.se [62.119.125.127]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B621F89F for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:45:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ola by chrystal.opal.dhs.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19grSE-0006sC-00 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:45:14 +0200 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:45:13 +0200 From: Ola Lundqvist To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030727194513.GA26125@chrystal.opal.dhs.org> Reply-To: opal@debian.org Mail-Followup-To: Ola Lundqvist , debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Ola Lundqvist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.0 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148354 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:45:22 -0500 (CDT) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1514 Lines: 33 On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 05:58:31PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > - Preconfigure the packages we install > > Using two different approaches: (1) Load answers into the debconf > database before the packages are installed using some home-make > scripts, and (2) rewrite/replace configuration files using > cfengine at the end of the installation if the package is unable > to configure what we want using debconf. I'm fairly satisfied > with this solution, but am not sure if the method used to feed > the debconf database is the best available. I believe the best > option would be to extend all the packages we use to make it > possible to configure everything we need using debconf answers. There is a package in Debian called dpsyco that is just for this kind of stuff. You create a package that you install and it sets things up for you. It has hooks for cfengine (I have never used them though so I do not know if they work properly. I use them to configure my servers. Regards, // Ola -- --------------------- Ola Lundqvist --------------------------- / opal@debian.org Annebergsslingan 37 \ | opal@lysator.liu.se 654 65 KARLSTAD | | +46 (0)54-10 14 30 +46 (0)70-332 1551 | | http://www.opal.dhs.org UIN/icq: 4912500 | \ gpg/f.p.: 7090 A92B 18FE 7994 0C36 4FE4 18A1 B1CF 0FE5 3DD9 / --------------------------------------------------------------- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Jul 28 00:10:47 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19h0HX-0004kD-00; Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:10:47 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 7D6C51F696; Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:10:47 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from joseki.proulx.com (joseki.proulx.com [216.17.153.58]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C951F43D for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:10:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from misery.proulx.com (misery.proulx.com [192.168.1.108]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 306224B4E6 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:10:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: by misery.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 199968A2B5; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:10:40 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:10:40 -0600 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030728051040.GD30421@misery.proulx.com> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <9hkvfb.l79.ln@127.0.0.1> <20030727104708.GB859@heim-d.uni-sb.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030727104708.GB859@heim-d.uni-sb.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: bob@proulx.com (Bob Proulx) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.5 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148365 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:10:47 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1412 Lines: 47 --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christoph Berg wrote: > The problem that one doesn't want things like .bash_completion read > there is easily solved by >=20 > # check whether we run interactively > [ "$PS1" ] || return >=20 > (Something like that exists in Debian's /etc/skel/.bash_profile.) Uh, no. You are thinking of /etc/skel/.bashrc which does that. The profile sources the bashrc unconditionally. > So test for reading ~/.bashrc should be done first in X startup files, > only reading ~/{.bash_,}profile if the former doesn't exist. Bash already automatically loads up the bashrc file if it is not a login shell. Loading bashrc is not the problem. It is loading up functionality which traditionally exists in the profile which is the problem. BTW, I see a lot of people turn their terminals into login shells with 'xterm -ls' and the like in order to make every shell a login shell and source their profiles. Which I think is a less than optimal configuration and I avoid that myself. Bob --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/JLBQ0pRcO8E2ULYRAtfQAJ9F9N2wuQz4EnRsE9nRXahe3cV1oACfalbW 5A9dVvyFLXC1lAh5ym+17mw= =w+zO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD-- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Jul 28 04:44:34 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19h4YT-00067T-00; Mon, 28 Jul 2003 04:44:33 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 991A51F3C8; Mon, 28 Jul 2003 04:44:33 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from indyio.rz.uni-saarland.de (indyio.rz.uni-saarland.de [134.96.7.3]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEEA81F663 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2003 04:28:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from planck.df7cb.de (d123.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de [134.96.56.123]) by indyio.rz.uni-saarland.de (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h6S9Skqk4966485 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:28:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: by df7cb.de via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.114) Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:28:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:28:45 +0200 From: Christoph Berg To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030728092845.GB1233@heim-d.uni-sb.de> References: <9hkvfb.l79.ln@127.0.0.1> <20030727104708.GB859@heim-d.uni-sb.de> <20030728051040.GD30421@misery.proulx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="opJtzjQTFsWo+cga" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030728051040.GD30421@misery.proulx.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148367 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 04:44:33 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2165 Lines: 64 --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions [Bob Proulx , Sun, Jul 27, 2003 at 11:10:40PM -0600, <20030728051040.GD30= 421@misery.proulx.com>] > > # check whether we run interactively > > [ "$PS1" ] || return > >=20 > > (Something like that exists in Debian's /etc/skel/.bash_profile.) >=20 > Uh, no. You are thinking of /etc/skel/.bashrc which does that. The > profile sources the bashrc unconditionally. Sorry - I screwed up the file names. FYI, the "source" is commented out in /etc/skel/.bash_profile: #if [ -f ~/.bashrc ]; then # source ~/.bashrc #fi (Maybe that should be changed - it would be a resonable default for users that don't want to edit/don't know how to edit .bash_profile.) > Bash already automatically loads up the bashrc file if it is not a > login shell. Loading bashrc is not the problem. It is loading up > functionality which traditionally exists in the profile which is the > problem. Only for interactive shells, quoting bash(1): When an interactive shell that is not a login shell is started, bash reads and executes commands from ~/.bashrc, if that file exists. This may be inhibited by using the --norc option. The --rcfile file option will force bash to read and execute commands from file instead of ~/.bashrc. Nevertheless, the above test for $PS1 is still useful if you source =2Ebashrc in .xsession etc where you want variables, but no completion etc. Christoph --=20 Christoph Berg , http://www.df7cb.de Wohnheim D, 2405, Universit=E4t des Saarlandes, 0681/9657944 --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBPyTszbRrkjttir5xAQFdPgP/TyXq59C2T18YuIZqB2xTddKhk0tjEuGb CVQJmXIczKvXLsjbch3fYU4zzp6Sgd093gt1SX7vndFN/sFOckFVG1SBIh3x4iVg Ki8miaRPlBxJzWOptzqODkTFZaW03nOvOD3iJgs+u0LslI2qPdH2Agbhcmjrm/1G AJ1cf/t2NxA= =7FHW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga-- From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Aug 7 12:15:47 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19koMd-0003mv-00; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:15:47 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 054951FD6C; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:15:46 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from vsmtp9.tin.it (unknown [212.216.176.185]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51DB91FA01 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:48:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vsmtp6.tin.it (212.216.176.232) by vsmtp9.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3F1BE7360089E8D3 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:48:02 +0200 Received: from stracco.binary-only.priv (80.180.15.154) by vsmtp6.tin.it (7.0.019) id 3F22A61B00C13541 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:47:59 +0200 Received: from vaclav (vaclav.binary-only.priv [192.168.1.50]) by stracco.binary-only.priv (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85441E748 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:55:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: by vaclav (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2C6D3256EF6; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:47:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrea Glorioso To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions References: MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:47:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Nikita V. Youshchenko's message of "Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:51:24 +0400") Message-ID: <87adale7nl.fsf@vaclav.binary-only.priv> User-Agent: T-gnus/6.15.7 (based on Oort Gnus v0.08) SEMI/1.14.5 (Awara-Onsen) FLIM/1.14.5 (Demachiyanagi) APEL/10.6 MULE XEmacs/21.4 (patch 13) (Rational FORTRAN) (i386-debian-linux) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.8 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,RCVD_IN_NJABL,REFERENCES,USER_AGENT, X_NJABL_DIALUP version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_07_19 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/149308 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:15:46 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 690 Lines: 18 >>>>> "nvy" == Nikita V Youshchenko writes: nvy> The thing I really don't like in debian-cd is the requirement nvy> to have a local mirror. I prefer to use apt-get (+apt-proxy) nvy> to fetch packages while building CD. I have a (currently nvy> ugly) script to do so; if anyone is interested I can (try to) nvy> clean it up and make it available. I'm quite interested in such a script. Is it available somewhere, so I (we) can test it and improve it (not that it needs improvements, of course! :) ). bye, andrea -- Andrea Glorioso sama@debian.org "There's no free expression without control on the tools you use" From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Aug 17 10:24:59 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19oPOs-0005gc-00; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:24:58 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 873DE1F728; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:24:58 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F3AA1F48D for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:24:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail-mx1.uio.no ([129.240.10.29] ident=[vvCSgmqvf4kg7wQy+SoZUfpuqA5uFIb4]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19oPOa-0006Qu-5R for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:24:40 +0200 Received: from saruman.uio.no ([129.240.201.202]) by mail-mx1.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19oPOY-0003dJ-F6; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:24:38 +0200 Received: from pre by saruman.uio.no with local (Exim 2.12 #7) id 19oPOO-0003Pg-00; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:24:28 +0200 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions References: <20030725212856.GD11123@twinette.migus.eu.org> X-Message-Flag: Message text blocked: ADULT LANGUAGE/SITUATIONS Reply-By: Tue, 1 Jan 1801 04:37:40 +1000 From: Petter Reinholdtsen Date: 17 Aug 2003 17:24:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030725212856.GD11123@twinette.migus.eu.org> Message-ID: <2flsmo09uj7.fsf@saruman.uio.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Petter Reinholdtsen X-MailScanner-Information: This message has been scanned for viruses/spam. Contact postmaster@uio.no if you have questions about this scanning. X-UiO-MailScanner: No virus found X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/150072 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:24:58 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 751 Lines: 19 [Pierre Machard] > Why not having multiple languages per user? I mean for example: > > 1) French 2) German 3) English > > That means first displays me info in French, if the translation is > missing, then use German, finaly if neither French and German are > available displays English > > I am very enthusiast about the items you exposed. This already work as you describe it. There is a list of fallback languages to use if the primary language is missing. The Skolelinux packages are available from APT source 'deb ftp://ftp.skolelinux.no/skolelinux/ woody local'. This package is called locale-config-skolelinux at the moment. The source is in the Skolelinux CVS, . From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Aug 17 10:29:28 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19oPTE-0006OH-00; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:29:28 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 9A2AF1F4A9; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:29:28 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98961F483 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:29:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail-mx1.uio.no ([129.240.10.29] ident=[/NRBAn67FF9XYIe9YLFUAJP2a7tLdTcu]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19oPSn-0006kB-UC for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:29:01 +0200 Received: from saruman.uio.no ([129.240.201.202]) by mail-mx1.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19oPSi-00046m-C5; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:28:56 +0200 Received: from pre by saruman.uio.no with local (Exim 2.12 #7) id 19oPSY-0003Q2-00; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:28:46 +0200 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions References: <20030726023354.GA14581@dragon.kitenet.net> X-Message-Flag: Message text blocked: ADULT LANGUAGE/SITUATIONS Reply-By: Tue, 1 Jan 1801 04:37:40 +1000 From: Petter Reinholdtsen Date: 17 Aug 2003 17:28:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030726023354.GA14581@dragon.kitenet.net> Message-ID: <2floeyo9uc1.fsf@saruman.uio.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: Petter Reinholdtsen X-MailScanner-Information: This message has been scanned for viruses/spam. Contact postmaster@uio.no if you have questions about this scanning. X-UiO-MailScanner: No virus found X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/150073 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:29:28 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2023 Lines: 41 [Joey Hess] > If you need to generate your own Packages files, which you might want to > do for various reasons, you could instead add Task: overrides to the > Packages files. Then use 'tasksel install' (that command may need to be > fixed first) to install the task. This would sidestep the dependency > problem.=20 This would only work with CD installs, where we can control the packages file. I would like it to work with network installs as well, so I want another mechanism. > Alternatively, you could get a similar effect by making the task > package only recommend most of the stuff in the task (except perhaps > a few key packages), and installing it with aptitude, which can pull > in recommends. I am actually thinking about switching tasks back > over to real packages using recommends like this, a few years down > the road. I would be interested in the results of a test case. Hm, this might work. I'll try to look at it later. > As discussed at DebConf, I would like to make debconf have better > support for pre-populating a database, when I find some time to work > on it. I believe it should be part of d-i and base-config, to make sure all custom distributions use the same mechanism. We could just copy the Skolelinux method into base-config, or come up with some other method if you do not like that. > Could this fit into the language-env package somehow? Debian needs > to go a few steps further in providing a localised system after > install, with language and locale set to the install langage. At the > moment language-env only displays a stupid debconf message when > installed, and allows per-user configuration, but it seems the place > to put a global config too. The language-env package only set the language per user. We wanted to change the global setting. It might be a good idea to merge our locale-config-skolelinux into language-env. I'm not sure why it wasn't done when Dagfinn Ilmari Mans=E5ker looked at this (he made the initial version of locale-config-skolelinux). From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Aug 17 10:41:52 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19oPfE-0007Am-00; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:41:52 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 873AB1F8DA; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:41:51 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4E21F6B8 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:41:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail-mx1.uio.no ([129.240.10.29] ident=[XEnHS6VZkvdUJx1ypA9SEUuZL/zTmzej]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19oPf4-0007bt-R8; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:41:42 +0200 Received: from saruman.uio.no ([129.240.201.202]) by mail-mx1.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19oPf1-0005Nn-TW; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:41:39 +0200 Received: from pre by saruman.uio.no with local (Exim 2.12 #7) id 19oPer-0003WC-00; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:41:29 +0200 To: "Nikita V. Youshchenko" Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions References: X-Message-Flag: Message text blocked: ADULT LANGUAGE/SITUATIONS Reply-By: Tue, 1 Jan 1801 04:37:40 +1000 From: Petter Reinholdtsen Date: 17 Aug 2003 17:41:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2flk79c9tqu.fsf@saruman.uio.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Petter Reinholdtsen X-MailScanner-Information: This message has been scanned for viruses/spam. Contact postmaster@uio.no if you have questions about this scanning. X-UiO-MailScanner: No virus found X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/150074 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:41:51 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2998 Lines: 68 [Nikita V. Youshchenko] > I'm not sure that everything can be done this way. > > E.g. in a "distribution" (better to say - custom installation CD) I > maintain here I expect users to use kppp to connect to their > ISPs. To make this work by default, I have to comment out whole > contents of /etc/ppp/options during the last stage of the > installation. I don't think that pppd maintainer will agree that > such thing should be provided by debconf. You can get base-config to do whatever you want, so it should be possible to do this in that context. But I suspect it would be better to make some generic method in the ppp package to do this. I know very little about ppp config, so you will have to take my suggestions with a grain of salt. :) > Could you give an URL to such script? > I need one badly. Unfortunatly, discover/mdetect/read-edid based dexconf is > far from perfect, especcialy in detecting capabilities of the monitor. And > hadrware detection is not what I am an expert in :(. Sure. The Skolelinux packages are available from APT source 'deb ftp://ftp.skolelinux.no/skolelinux/ woody local'. This package is called xdebconfigurator at the moment. The source is in the Skolelinux CVS, . > > - Configure default language for all users > > > > Using a custom script to rewrite config files to modify the > > default language/locale. > > Seems that feeding correct value to debconf for "locales" package fixes > this. At least for me. Well, it is not enough, as KDE, ispell, Opera and possibly others do not use the glibc locales. > Currently I install "locales" and "console-cyrrillic" (with all > dependencies) very early - I modified debootstrap to do so. Default > values to debconf database also are written by modified > debootstrap. So I have russian properly set up already when > base-config runs. If you want to supply patches to termwrap in base-config to enable russian installation, that would be very welcome. :) And if you want to help us make a russian version of Skolelinux, you are also very welcome. Check out to see what is needed to add a new language. > Users want to configure their X display easily (resolution, > frequency, etc). E.g. from KDE control center. They complain that > other distros let them to do so. I am not familar with distros other > than Debian so I don't know what to do. This would be nice, but we do not have it in Skolelinux. > Also users want all their hardware to be detected and configured > automatically. Well, discover does something, but again, users > complain that XXX is not detected/configured/working properly, while > everything is ok with other distros. Maybe there are better tools? > Please share your experiense. We use updated HW databases with discover, and are satisfied with that solution. Now the updated discover-data is in Sid, so everyone can use it. :) From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Aug 17 11:00:44 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19oPxU-0000dQ-00; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:00:44 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id DFA161F9BF; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:00:42 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D974F1F9BB for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:59:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail-mx1.uio.no ([129.240.10.29] ident=[6G0TrDf8JE4aTpo6wTsGSHdmny+Smn91]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19oPvx-0001SJ-0A; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:59:09 +0200 Received: from saruman.uio.no ([129.240.201.202]) by mail-mx1.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19oPvv-0006s7-Cn; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:59:07 +0200 Received: from pre by saruman.uio.no with local (Exim 2.12 #7) id 19oPvl-0003cJ-00; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:58:57 +0200 To: opal@debian.org Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions References: <20030727194513.GA26125@chrystal.opal.dhs.org> X-Message-Flag: Message text blocked: ADULT LANGUAGE/SITUATIONS Reply-By: Tue, 1 Jan 1801 04:37:40 +1000 From: Petter Reinholdtsen Date: 17 Aug 2003 17:58:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030727194513.GA26125@chrystal.opal.dhs.org> Message-ID: <2flfzk09sxr.fsf@saruman.uio.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Petter Reinholdtsen X-MailScanner-Information: This message has been scanned for viruses/spam. Contact postmaster@uio.no if you have questions about this scanning. X-UiO-MailScanner: No virus found X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/150077 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:00:42 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 857 Lines: 19 [Ola Lundqvist] > There is a package in Debian called dpsyco that is just for this > kind of stuff. You create a package that you install and it sets > things up for you. It has hooks for cfengine (I have never used them > though so I do not know if they work properly. > > I use them to configure my servers. After looking at the web page (which was not too impressing), and reading the FAQ and the package descriptions, it seem to do mostly user administration and access control, with some additions to run cfengine scripts. What I am looking for is a system to load debconf answers into the debconf database before the packages are installed during first time install. We use LDAP to distribute user info, so there is no need for a package to handle that. I might be mistaken, but dpsyco did not appear to give us anything we need at the moment. From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Aug 17 12:40:42 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19oRWE-0002ua-00; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:40:42 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 582ED1FB9C; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:40:36 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from chrystal.opal.dhs.org (n02p127.netcamp.se [62.119.125.127]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1031FAEF for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:39:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ola by chrystal.opal.dhs.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19oRVJ-0003EL-00 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:39:45 +0200 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:39:00 +0200 From: Ola Lundqvist To: Petter Reinholdtsen Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030817173900.GA10892@chrystal.opal.dhs.org> Reply-To: opal@debian.org References: <20030727194513.GA26125@chrystal.opal.dhs.org> <2flfzk09sxr.fsf@saruman.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2flfzk09sxr.fsf@saruman.uio.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Resent-From: opal@lysator.liu.se Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:39:44 +0200 Resent-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-Message-Id: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.2 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,RESENT_TO,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/150084 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1886 Lines: 48 Hi On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 05:58:56PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > > [Ola Lundqvist] > > There is a package in Debian called dpsyco that is just for this > > kind of stuff. You create a package that you install and it sets > > things up for you. It has hooks for cfengine (I have never used them > > though so I do not know if they work properly. > > > > I use them to configure my servers. > > After looking at the web page (which was not too impressing), and > reading the FAQ and the package descriptions, it seem to do mostly > user administration and access control, with some additions to run > cfengine scripts. What I am looking for is a system to load debconf Well the features that I use most is the ability to copy in files (replace configs) and to patch files. > answers into the debconf database before the packages are installed > during first time install. We use LDAP to distribute user info, so > there is no need for a package to handle that. I see. Well dpsyco is intended to be used after installation so that will not be able to do this. But if dpsyco is installed before many other things, the framework could be used to create a dpsyco-debconfpreload package. But I think installing dpsyco first can be problematic because it requires at least a shell installed. > I might be mistaken, but dpsyco did not appear to give us anything we > need at the moment. Ok. Regards, // Ola -- --------------------- Ola Lundqvist --------------------------- / opal@debian.org Annebergsslingan 37 \ | opal@lysator.liu.se 654 65 KARLSTAD | | +46 (0)54-10 14 30 +46 (0)70-332 1551 | | http://www.opal.dhs.org UIN/icq: 4912500 | \ gpg/f.p.: 7090 A92B 18FE 7994 0C36 4FE4 18A1 B1CF 0FE5 3DD9 / --------------------------------------------------------------- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Aug 17 13:51:52 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19oSd6-0000B9-00; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:51:52 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 3AADF1FB35; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:51:52 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from kitenet.net (kitenet.net [64.62.161.42]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 079F51FA3F for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:51:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dragon.kitenet.net (pm3naxs3-137.access.naxs.com [216.98.91.137]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client CN "Joey Hess", Issuer "Joey Hess" (verified OK)) by kitenet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36DB71802C for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:51:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from joey by dragon.kitenet.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19oSei-0001a9-00 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:53:32 -0400 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:53:32 -0400 From: Joey Hess To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030817185332.GG9200@dragon.kitenet.net> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20030726023354.GA14581@dragon.kitenet.net> <2floeyo9uc1.fsf@saruman.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RDS4xtyBfx+7DiaI" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2floeyo9uc1.fsf@saruman.uio.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Joey Hess X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.5 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/150091 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:51:52 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1756 Lines: 53 --RDS4xtyBfx+7DiaI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > [Joey Hess] > > If you need to generate your own Packages files, which you might want to > > do for various reasons, you could instead add Task: overrides to the > > Packages files. Then use 'tasksel install' (that command may need to be > > fixed first) to install the task. This would sidestep the dependency > > problem.=20 >=20 > This would only work with CD installs, where we can control the > packages file. I would like it to work with network installs as well, > so I want another mechanism. You should be able to control the Packages files for network installs too. Just put them up on a server with a debian mirror and the skolelinux packages, and modify choose-mirror and apt-setup to use that mirror. > > As discussed at DebConf, I would like to make debconf have better > > support for pre-populating a database, when I find some time to work > > on it. >=20 > I believe it should be part of d-i and base-config, to make sure all > custom distributions use the same mechanism. We could just copy the > Skolelinux method into base-config, or come up with some other method > if you do not like that. It has to work around some infelicities in debconf that I want to fix in debconf. I agree that base-config should have a standard way to preseed debconf. --=20 see shy jo --RDS4xtyBfx+7DiaI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/P88s3xwsXJZQhyMRAl8RAKCWbBlOc8K10zkQ0L0Q/EXJ++p4/wCglmJp rHhCSgMllJ34Y2wp+2NtiV0= =XXkH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RDS4xtyBfx+7DiaI-- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Aug 18 02:40:56 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19oedL-0004Pk-00; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:40:55 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id E52E51F45C; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:40:55 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF8F1F3D8 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:40:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 10.0.11.93 cobaco@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.133.193.10] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.35 $ on Novell NetWare via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:40:48 -0600 From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:37:29 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <2flk79c9tqu.fsf@saruman.uio.no> In-Reply-To: <2flk79c9tqu.fsf@saruman.uio.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308180937.31853.cobaco@linux.be> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.4 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_KMAIL version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/150129 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:40:55 -0500 (CDT) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1131 Lines: 32 =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2003-08-17 17:41, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > > Users want to configure their X display easily (resolution, > > frequency, etc). E.g. from KDE control center. They complain that > > other distros let them to do so. I am not familar with distros other > > than Debian so I don't know what to do. > This would be nice, but we do not have it in Skolelinux. for KDE there's kcmrandr which I believe to be slated for inclusion in 3.2 and I also remember reading something about a similar module for gnome (in = de=20 preview-review that was on slashdot last week or so?) =2D --=20 Cheers, cobaco /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / No proprietary formats in attachments without request X i.e. *NO* WORD, POWERPOINT or EXCEL documents / \ Respect Open Standards http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html http://www.goldmark.org/netrants/no-word/attach.html =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/QII75ihPJ4ZiSrsRAoR3AJ490zBkDwltVV3G8sy8e+E6Zt+4kgCgh9kt mJnKbZa002HBj3gf591tXvk=3D =3DIPyO =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Aug 18 03:09:12 2003 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 19of4i-0006V3-00; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 03:09:12 -0500 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 967821F4BB; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 03:09:12 -0500 (CDT) Old-Return-Path: Received: from tofu.mamane.lu (213-84-238-144.adsl.xs4all.nl [213.84.238.144]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA451F49C for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 03:08:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from master by tofu.mamane.lu with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19of4K-0005bS-00; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:08:48 +0200 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:08:48 +0200 From: Lionel Elie Mamane To: Petter Reinholdtsen Cc: "Nikita V. Youshchenko" , debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Some issues for custom debian distributions Message-ID: <20030818080848.GA20980@tofu.home.mamane.lu> Mail-Followup-To: Lionel Elie Mamane , Petter Reinholdtsen , "Nikita V. Youshchenko" , debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <2flk79c9tqu.fsf@saruman.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2flk79c9tqu.fsf@saruman.uio.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: GNU/Linux X-Request-PGP: http://www.mamane.lu/openpgp/dh4096.asc Sender: Lionel Elie Mamane X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.5 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-lists.debian.org_2003_08_15 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/150131 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 03:09:12 -0500 (CDT) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 936 Lines: 35 --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 05:41:29PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > [Nikita V. Youshchenko] >> Users want to configure their X display easily (resolution, >> frequency, etc). E.g. from KDE control center. They complain that >> other distros let them to do so. I am not familar with distros other >> than Debian so I don't know what to do. > This would be nice, but we do not have it in Skolelinux. The "configlets-frontends" package permits to do so in the Gnome control center. --=20 Lionel --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/QImQscRzFz57S3MRAp/aAJkBh87GKpTPchiwr1uixqGs5tXCpACfU3lV XUKsUUh8xeJ9SSkaYqh4ac8= =7OZ9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND-- From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Jan 13 13:53:17 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AgONC-0003kW-00; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 07:14:22 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 1865EE9D7; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 07:14:22 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (mail-in-05.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.45]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112ABF049 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 06:40:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from webmail02.arcor-online.net (webmail02.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.80]) by mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C03402A40; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:40:10 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19417071.1073997610119.JavaMail.ngmail@webmail02.arcor-online.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:40:09 +0100 (CET) From: p.carsten@arcor.de To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: (not only) [custom]: (pre)configuring packages Cc: jlong@messiah.edu, justin@skiingyac.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ngMessageSubType: MessageSubType_MAIL X-WebmailclientIP: : 80.134.241.134, 80.134.241.134 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=4.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/160656 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 07:14:22 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1960 Lines: 65 As noted on the CDD wiki[1] many times there is a need to change or manage configurations from a wide variety of apps from within also a wide range of different config tools. ;-) To ease and increase maintainability of configuring packages from shell scipts, own apps, GUIs and so forth the config4gnu project[2] started on writing a modular config manipulation and representation framework to share functionality a while ago. Config4gnu (or CFG for short) has several systax parsers. Specifics about particular packages (semantics) however are maintained in external meta-config-definition files (xml). For example when a new package with its meta-config file gets installed its configuration options and possible values are accessible in GUI-frontends (including forms and wizards) as well as in command line tools or with the bindings in your favorite language instantly. CFG is not intended to replace debconf (CFG does not save any state), however it may makes sense to let debconf use CFG to make changes to config files in the future. The functionallity is shared and collaboratively maintained (meta-config definitions even within their own packages). Accesses though CFG are done based on single options, respect comments and formatting and can be validated. CFG has evolved into a functional state, and would need some people to team up for first deployments. Custom Debian Distributions seem to all have some kind of home-brew scipts and tools for configuration that could benefit from CFG, we think. We would like to welcome you to check out CFG cocept and code. Best Regards, -Peter [1] http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?CustomDebian [2] Links to relevant CFG info: Homepage: http://config4gnu.sourceforge.net (little out of date) New FAQ: http://linuxwiki.de/Config4Gnu/EnglishFAQ Backup mail/news archive for recent messages: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.sysutils.cfg.devel From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Jan 13 14:29:02 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AgP8O-0001TL-00; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:03:08 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id D7ED6F089; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:03:08 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.102]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6613EEBF5 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:03:06 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i0DE35P21174 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:03:05 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Tue Jan 13 15:03:05 2004 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:03:01 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Interpackage-use of debconf (Was: (not only) [custom]: (pre)configuring packages) In-Reply-To: <19417071.1073997610119.JavaMail.ngmail@webmail02.arcor-online.net> Message-Id: References: <19417071.1073997610119.JavaMail.ngmail@webmail02.arcor-online.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jan 2004 14:03:02.0376 (UTC) FILETIME=[F5590E80:01C3D9DD] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <4oABOD.A.suF.cq_AAB@murphy> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/160661 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:03:08 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 890 Lines: 26 On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 p.carsten@arcor.de wrote: > CFG is not intended to replace debconf (CFG does not save any state), > however it may makes sense to let debconf use CFG to make changes to > config files in the future. The functionallity is shared and > ... While reading this the following question comes me into mind: Would it me a good idea if a package A changes configuration of package B via debconf. For instance I want to package GnuMed which does require changes in postgresql configuration. I'm currently doing this via the same mechanism as gforge. But I wonder now if it would be missuse if I would use a template like Template: postgresql/gnumed-conf-option_a ... and configure/postinst scripts perform the necessary actions. So the question is: Is interpackage action of debconf OK or bad use? Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 03:04:17 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsICH-0001WY-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:04:17 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 3122EEA1D; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:04:17 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from minerva.hungry.com (217-13-7-10.dd.nextgentel.com [217.13.7.10]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 910F2E8A2; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:04:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from pere by minerva.hungry.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AsIC1-0006vG-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:04:01 +0100 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Cc: debian-edu@lists.debian.org Subject: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers From: Petter Reinholdtsen Message-Id: Sender: Petter Reinholdtsen Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:04:01 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162816 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:04:17 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1433 Lines: 31 It feels a bit counter-productive when we in the Skolelinux project spend lots of time trying to convince Debian package maintainers to add support for package configuration using pre-seeding of debconf answers, and then experience that the next maintainer of the same package consider this a waste and throw out the code. As I believe this is an issuse for all custom debian distributions (CDD), I bring it up here. (More on CDD on ). The issue provoking this email is the new ntp packages, removing the code we got added to be able to install the package with correct configuration. But I suspect there is a broader issue here. I experence that some debian developers do not even understand the point of making the package automatically configurable at install time using debconf pre-seeding. In Debian Edu, we believe debconf pre-seeding is the only sensible way to do this in a way that all CDDs can benefit, and the only way that is expected to avoid most upgrade problems. The alternative is to replace or edit other packages files, and this is error prone and hard to do within the current policy. I know Non-profit debian have similar needs, and I suspect most custom debians need to do this as well. What should we do to make sure all the packages we need to configure at install time are configurable in a standardized way, preferably using debconf preseeding? From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 03:18:57 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsIQT-0003Qw-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:18:57 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 0A14BECEC; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:18:56 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt23.ihug.com.au (grunt23.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.143]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D90BE8B7; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:18:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from p102-tnt3.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.freedbms.net) [203.173.132.102] by grunt23.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AsIQN-00089I-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:18:52 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.freedbms.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 900944231A; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:17:21 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, debian-edu@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1076836641.24451.69.camel@zen8100a.freedbms.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:17:21 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162818 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:18:56 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 625 Lines: 16 On Sun, 2004-02-15 at 20:04, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > In Debian Edu, we believe debconf pre-seeding is the only sensible way > to do this in a way that all CDDs can benefit, and the only way that > is expected to avoid most upgrade problems. The alternative is to > replace or edit other packages files, and this is error prone and hard > to do within the current policy. > > I know Non-profit debian have similar needs, and I suspect most custom > debians need to do this as well. UserLinux.com CDD project will definitely benefit from this too. Undoubtedly there will be others... Thanks for brining it up, Zenaan From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 04:18:19 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsJLv-0003lQ-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:18:19 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id E0001EF32; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:18:18 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from vsmtp4.tin.it (unknown [212.216.176.150]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5CCDEC2C; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:18:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from eddie.casa (80.116.78.32) by vsmtp4.tin.it (7.0.019) id 402CD2F000041F55; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:14:15 +0100 Received: from mitac.casa (mitac) [192.168.1.42] (Debian-exim) by eddie.casa with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AsLPj-0000WF-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:30:23 +0100 Received: from enrico by mitac with local (Exim 4.30) id 1AsJHw-0007G4-PH; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:14:12 +0100 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:14:12 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: Petter Reinholdtsen Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, debian-edu@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215101412.GA27881@mitac> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: Enrico Zini X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162822 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:18:18 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1916 Lines: 59 --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 10:04:01AM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > It feels a bit counter-productive when we in the Skolelinux project > spend lots of time trying to convince Debian package maintainers to > add support for package configuration using pre-seeding of debconf > answers, and then experience that the next maintainer of the same > package consider this a waste and throw out the code. [...] > What should we do to make sure all the packages we need to configure > at install time are configurable in a standardized way, preferably > using debconf preseeding? So far I believe it's just a communication problem: the Custom Debian concept is probably still not well known enough to expect developers to understand its implications and current requirements. I think the issue should be addressed writing some nice, short, clear documents and publicize them in -devel-announce. A Custom Debian Manifesto is in the works at http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?CustomDebianManifesto although still far from being complete, nor short and coincise. There should also be a small tech reference, outlining the technologies used by Custom Debians so far, and their rationale. I worked on it a bit, but due to graduation deadlines I'm sorry I can't start/resume working on it until the beginning of april. Anyway, that's how I'd handle the problem at the moment. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAL0Z09LSwzHl+v6sRAtn0AJ0bwJO6PLaX1ZVJOGw9C2Jf3YFSxQCfSyTT aQAALpzEWEarP/o7mtIVtN0= =uTic -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 04:24:27 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsJRr-0004l8-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:24:27 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 074DCEA4C; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:24:26 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from papadoc.bayour.com (papadoc.bayour.com [212.214.70.53]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66BFE88A for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:24:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 23215 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Feb 2004 10:24:19 -0000 Sender: turbo@papadoc.bayour.com To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 92 93 0E 06 94 D6 22 98 1F 0B 5B FE 33 A1 0B X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x788CD1A9 X-URL: http://www.bayour.com/ From: Turbo Fredriksson Organization: Bah! X-Yow: Not enough people play SKEE-BALL.. They're always thinking about COCAINE or and ALIEN BEINGS!! Date: 15 Feb 2004 11:24:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87hdxsvdwt.fsf@papadoc.bayour.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162823 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:24:26 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1133 Lines: 23 Quoting Petter Reinholdtsen : > It feels a bit counter-productive when we in the Skolelinux project > spend lots of time trying to convince Debian package maintainers to > add support for package configuration using pre-seeding of debconf > answers, and then experience that the next maintainer of the same > package consider this a waste and throw out the code. This is 'bad behaviour' in my opinion. Now, i haven't followed the NTP thread, so maybe there was a good reason, but still... > I experence that some debian developers do not even understand the point > of making the package automatically configurable at install time using > debconf pre-seeding. I'm not sure what you mean by 'pre-seeding', but if this means 'give sensible defaults to get it working for the majority of people which can then be changed manually' then I'm _all_ for it! I thought this was in the packaging requirenments!? -- assassination Iran Marxist North Korea Ortega counter-intelligence genetic South Africa kibo terrorist tritium 747 nitrate FSF attack [See http://www.aclu.org/echelonwatch/index.html for more about this] From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 06:17:33 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsLDI-0007cE-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:17:32 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 8156AEABB; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:17:32 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from silly.cloud.net.au (m039-148.nv.iinet.net.au [203.217.39.148]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F4CEA8F for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:17:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from hamish by silly.cloud.net.au with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AsLD7-0006ZF-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:17:21 +1100 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:17:20 +1100 From: Hamish Moffatt To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215121720.GC25167@cloud.net.au> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162830 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:17:32 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1650 Lines: 36 On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 10:04:01AM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > It feels a bit counter-productive when we in the Skolelinux project > spend lots of time trying to convince Debian package maintainers to > add support for package configuration using pre-seeding of debconf > answers, and then experience that the next maintainer of the same > package consider this a waste and throw out the code. > > As I believe this is an issuse for all custom debian distributions > (CDD), I bring it up here. (More on CDD on > ). > > The issue provoking this email is the new ntp packages, removing the > code we got added to be able to install the package with correct > configuration. But I suspect there is a broader issue here. I [..] In this particular case, the ntp authors removed its debconf use because they believed it was better if it required no configuration at all. Isn't that even better than being able to preconfigure it? What extra configuration of that package do you require? Of course that's just one example, but I would expect that in most cases of developers undoing debconf, it's not because they are switching to a different configuration system but because they are going to no install-time configuration questions at all. We've had the debate a few times on this list about whether it is better to provide defaults for everything you can, or whether it is better to ask everything, even at low priority. I think sensible defaults wins and I think our policy manuals agree, but others may not. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 07:28:41 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsMK9-0006ha-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 07:28:41 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 88050ED24; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 07:28:40 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.beamnet.de (s217-115-138-13.colo.hosteurope.de [217.115.138.13]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9340EC29 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 07:28:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from beamnet.de (dsl-213-023-248-202.arcor-ip.net [213.23.248.202]) (sasl authenticated) by mail.beamnet.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F7157ED2 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:28:31 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:28:26 +0100 From: Thomas Viehmann Organization: beamNet User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig38776C8E12FAD91AAF5FA320" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162836 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 07:28:40 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1920 Lines: 51 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig38776C8E12FAD91AAF5FA320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > It feels a bit counter-productive when we in the Skolelinux project > spend lots of time trying to convince Debian package maintainers to > add support for package configuration using pre-seeding of debconf > answers, and then experience that the next maintainer of the same > package consider this a waste and throw out the code. Given that you essentially ask to reinstate behavior that is relatively widely considered a bug, and that this has been stated in the NTP thread, why do you need to picture the situation as lack of support for CDDs? AFAICT debconf is intended and presently advocated as a way to prompt for defaults if they are absolutely needed. Specifically, it is not intended as a way to store stuff. How does your request correspond with the "debconf is not a registry" mantra? Basically you seem to be advocating what many people have called debconf abuse. This is no critique of the technical merits of your request, but if you wish to keep debconf questions like the NTP one you need to advocate changing the paradigm of debconf use. One of the obvious things that got asked multiple but that none of the 'keep debconf promt'ers answered is: Why is it critical for you to have these defaults done with debconf as opposed to customizing config files? Kind regards Thomas -- Thomas Viehmann, --------------enig38776C8E12FAD91AAF5FA320 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: GnuPG key at iD8DBQFAL3P+riZpaaIa1PkRAtPYAKDRG6jn+lxEfHTBAIDGa79j21iLPwCfR9XF a/BjoV1QMcBcOTKKiJ1Iss4= =WFYt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig38776C8E12FAD91AAF5FA320-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 07:49:30 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsMeI-00027N-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 07:49:30 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 2405DE90E; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 07:49:30 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from pob.cs.unibo.it (pob.cs.unibo.it [130.136.10.114]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4767DE891 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 07:49:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from le1.cs.unibo.it (backle.cs.unibo.it [130.136.10.110]) by pob.cs.unibo.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628322A267; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:49:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from giovanna.cs.unibo.it (postfix@giovanna.cs.unibo.it [130.136.4.231]) by le1.cs.unibo.it (8.9.3p2/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id OAA13904; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:49:25 +0100 Received: by giovanna.cs.unibo.it (Postfix, from userid 2685) id 00822233C5; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:49:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:49:24 +0100 To: Thomas Viehmann Cc: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: zinie@cs.unibo.it (Enrico Zini) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162840 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 07:49:30 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1535 Lines: 40 On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 02:28:26PM +0100, Thomas Viehmann wrote: > One of the obvious things that got asked multiple but that none of the > 'keep debconf promt'ers answered is: Why is it critical for you to have > these defaults done with debconf as opposed to customizing config files? Because, as Petter outlined in his mail, the install scripts of a package shouldn't mess with the files of others: > > The alternative is to replace or edit other packages files, and this > > is error prone and hard to do within the current policy. I should recall that Custom Debians are about creating a pre-configured, 100%-true-debian-and-policy-compliant distribution. The best solution Custom Debians came up so far to address this issue is to pre-seed hidden debconf questions, which are set to priorities so low that they never get asked. This is so far the best way for a package to customize others for special environments. Everyone reckons this is not optimal, but it's the best that's been found, it requires no policy changes and little effort from packagers. AFAIK this customization problem is still an open problem. Better proposals are indeed warmly accepted. I imagine that in order to be able to fuel some wider discussion, Custom Debians should provide a nice collection of cases in which this is required. I'm more and more convinced that common Custom Debian problems need a bit of rationalization, structure, examples and communication to the rest of the community. Can't wait to work on it! :) Ciao, Enrico From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 08:31:46 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsNJC-0000YG-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:31:46 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 65BBDE92A; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:31:45 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.beamnet.de (s217-115-138-13.colo.hosteurope.de [217.115.138.13]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D371E921 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:31:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from beamnet.de (dsl-213-023-248-202.arcor-ip.net [213.23.248.202]) (sasl authenticated) by mail.beamnet.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2110584A5; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:31:40 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:31:34 +0100 From: Thomas Viehmann Organization: beamNet User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Enrico Zini Cc: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> In-Reply-To: <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig69C265BAE52D09E4FD844F56" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162850 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:31:45 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 3294 Lines: 80 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig69C265BAE52D09E4FD844F56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Enrico Zini wrote: >>One of the obvious things that got asked multiple but that none of the >>'keep debconf promt'ers answered is: Why is it critical for you to have >>these defaults done with debconf as opposed to customizing config files? >>>The alternative is to replace or edit other packages files, and this >>>is error prone and hard to do within the current policy. > I should recall that Custom Debians are about creating a pre-configured, > 100%-true-debian-and-policy-compliant distribution. Nontheless it should be your goal to get policy adjusted to your needs not to encourage behaviour currently questionable. I don't quite see how a distribution is "policy compliant" as opposed to the shipped packages being policy compliant. In my reading of the policy, the installation program can basically do anything it desires. I can see that you aren't allowed to just have packages messing around with the configuration files of other packages, but surely that isn't the only way to do customization. > The best solution Custom Debians came up so far to address this issue is > to pre-seed hidden debconf questions, which are set to priorities so low > that they never get asked. Yeah, but low is not the priority never asked. If you absolutely want to go with preseeded debconf values, maybe you could ask Joey to allocate a priority "invisible" (or whatever you want to call it) that is exclusively used to do CDD configuration where, as in the case of NTP, prompting *a user* is completely unneccessary. (I only searched the debconf bug list for "priority", so I'm not certain that you didn't.) > > This is so far the best way for a package to customize others for > special environments. Everyone reckons this is not optimal, but it's > the best that's been found, it requires no policy changes and little > effort from packagers. It requires that package maintainers disregard a publicly stated and more or less accepted best packaging practice. > I'm more and more convinced that common Custom Debian problems need a > bit of rationalization, structure, examples and communication to the > rest of the community. The thing that really disturbed me about the discussion is that the subject and introduction of Petter's mail suggested that package maintainers are unwilling to cooperate when they're only trying to reach policy goals (and minimization of user interaction is an eplicit goal in policy). If you CDD guys (presently) need debconf for purposes other than user interaction (and again, I would not have any problem with that), you need to propose a way to do this and not whine about people cutting out debconf where user interaction is not needed. Regards Thomas -- Thomas Viehmann, --------------enig69C265BAE52D09E4FD844F56 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: GnuPG key at iD8DBQFAL4LMriZpaaIa1PkRAmRUAKC8o/STQePwZOKTadwg09y7y2frhACgxrCV dj549JVoK0yInTcZ5/cfrmI= =wtgS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig69C265BAE52D09E4FD844F56-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 09:03:13 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsNnd-0007J0-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:03:13 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id B8971E925; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:03:11 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp-out.tiscali.be (spoolo1.tiscali.be [62.235.13.210]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A59A9E8D4 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:46:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from [213.177.132.60] (helo=.) by smtp-out.tiscali.be with esmtp (Tiscali.be http://www.tiscali.be) id 1AsNWy-0000B1-9Z for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:46:00 +0100 From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:45:10 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> In-Reply-To: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200402151545.00972.cobaco@linux.be> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162852 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:03:11 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2377 Lines: 55 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2004-02-15 14:28, Thomas Viehmann wrote: > Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > > It feels a bit counter-productive when we in the Skolelinux project > > spend lots of time trying to convince Debian package maintainers to > > add support for package configuration using pre-seeding of debconf > > answers, and then experience that the next maintainer of the same > > package consider this a waste and throw out the code. > > Given that you essentially ask to reinstate behavior that is relatively > widely considered a bug, and that this has been stated in the NTP > thread, why do you need to picture the situation as lack of support for > CDDs? > > AFAICT debconf is intended and presently advocated as a way to prompt > for defaults if they are absolutely needed. Specifically, it is not > intended as a way to store stuff. > How does your request correspond with the "debconf is not a registry" > mantra? Basically you seem to be advocating what many people have called > debconf abuse. a CDD by definition caters to a certain situation/target group. Often the right default for that target group will differ from the right default for an average user. Debconf-preseeding gives us a way to change the default setting to fit our target group. > This is no critique of the technical merits of your request, but if you > wish to keep debconf questions like the NTP one you need to advocate > changing the paradigm of debconf use. it doesn't the debconf-preseeding doesn't do anything with debconf that the package itself doesn't do already, the preseeding just allows us to change the general default to a default fitting a more specialized setting. > One of the obvious things that got asked multiple but that none of the > 'keep debconf promt'ers answered is: Why is it critical for you to have > these defaults done with debconf as opposed to customizing config files? because we can then change the default value to fit our target group. - -- Cheers, cobaco 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAL4X25ihPJ4ZiSrsRAkgwAJ9NFgVrleAnu3KK86/P2btHr6UDYACfa6sh ydwXJihH3ezNI8sp6L4YSe4= =0hwd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 10:32:12 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsPBj-0006xx-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:32:11 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id DF15FEC90; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:32:11 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sa-2.airstreamcomm.net (sa-2.airstreamcomm.net [64.33.192.162]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A333EC0E for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:32:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from hasler.dhh.gt.org (elk-ras2-cs-92.dial.airstreamcomm.net [64.33.138.94]) by sa-2.airstreamcomm.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B74222FE0 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:32:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (helo=toncho.dhh.gt.org ident=mail) by hasler.dhh.gt.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AsPBf-0001fd-00 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:32:07 -0600 Received: from john by toncho.dhh.gt.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AsPBe-0004qH-00 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:32:06 -0600 To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> From: John Hasler Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:32:06 -0600 In-Reply-To: <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> (Thomas Viehmann's message of "Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:31:34 +0100") Message-ID: <874qtss3qx.fsf@toncho.dhh.gt.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162857 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:32:11 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 441 Lines: 13 Thomas Viehmann writes: > If you absolutely want to go with preseeded debconf values, maybe you > could ask Joey to allocate a priority "invisible" (or whatever you want > to call it) that is exclusively used to do CDD configuration where, as in > the case of NTP, prompting *a user* is completely unneccessary. That would also require that debconf be made compulsory. -- John Hasler john@dhh.gt.org Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, Wisconsin From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 10:44:11 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsPNL-0000b7-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:44:11 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id B3948EB26; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:44:11 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.beamnet.de (s217-115-138-13.colo.hosteurope.de [217.115.138.13]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08832E965 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:44:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from beamnet.de (dsl-213-023-248-202.arcor-ip.net [213.23.248.202]) (sasl authenticated) by mail.beamnet.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5AF93A79F for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:44:06 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <402FA1D5.1050200@beamnet.de> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:44:05 +0100 From: Thomas Viehmann Organization: beamNet User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> <874qtss3qx.fsf@toncho.dhh.gt.org> In-Reply-To: <874qtss3qx.fsf@toncho.dhh.gt.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigE92397DBDD85F42D8E67F816" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <1FM_ZD.A.leC.bH6LAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162858 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:44:11 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2086 Lines: 58 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigE92397DBDD85F42D8E67F816 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Hasler wrote: > Thomas Viehmann writes: > >>If you absolutely want to go with preseeded debconf values, maybe you >>could ask Joey to allocate a priority "invisible" (or whatever you want >>to call it) that is exclusively used to do CDD configuration where, as in >>the case of NTP, prompting *a user* is completely unneccessary. > That would also require that debconf be made compulsory. No, there always have been wish-list bugs to support debconf. (And debconf for prompting is now recommended by policy. [0]) Other efforts (such as l10n) seem to be highly successful using wishlist bugs to achieve great things. Personally, I'm all for supporting CDDs. The thing I'm objecting to is doing it at the expense of users of stock Debian. Having something like a debconf priority only for CDDs does two things: - It doesn't affect users of stock Debian, - it documents that a debconf query is made to cater for CDDs. Which would seem to make both parties happy and avoid having conflicts between CDDs and policy. One of the failures of CDD protagonists seems to be to take influence on the documentation. If they had added a description of their debconf use to appropriate documents every deveoper consults (or ought to), they would have avoided this altogether. (E.g. someone could add something about debconf being used for CDDs to the Developer's Reference and maintain a list of which debconf values are used for cutomization.) Kind regards Thomas 0. No, this is not precise. -- Thomas Viehmann, --------------enigE92397DBDD85F42D8E67F816 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: GnuPG key at iD8DBQFAL6HVriZpaaIa1PkRAsFqAKCcQ8jGoVPhnLmGB3SzDFVESipYlACgofzU tiQYW+mgVOscOx0NJm0ZGiw= =CSjv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigE92397DBDD85F42D8E67F816-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 10:45:51 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsPOx-0000sl-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:45:51 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 2AE4EEE09; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:45:51 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (quetzlcoatl.dodds.net [64.22.202.19]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3500EC6A for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:30:13 -0600 (CST) Received: by quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7622E3AE0; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:30:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:30:13 -0600 From: Steve Langasek To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215163012.GB7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> Mail-Followup-To: Debian Devel References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Y7xTucakfITjPcLV" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162859 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:45:51 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 3262 Lines: 77 --Y7xTucakfITjPcLV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 03:31:34PM +0100, Thomas Viehmann wrote: > Enrico Zini wrote: > >>One of the obvious things that got asked multiple but that none of the > >>'keep debconf promt'ers answered is: Why is it critical for you to have > >>these defaults done with debconf as opposed to customizing config files? > >>>The alternative is to replace or edit other packages files, and this > >>>is error prone and hard to do within the current policy. > > I should recall that Custom Debians are about creating a pre-configured, > > 100%-true-debian-and-policy-compliant distribution. > Nontheless it should be your goal to get policy adjusted to your needs > not to encourage behaviour currently questionable. There is nothing questionable about pre-seeding the debconf database. Based on my own experience, I think debconf handling of the time server settings is also quite reasonable. The only bug in NTP's config handling that I'm aware of is that local changes to the config file are not preserved. This is obviously a significant bug, but I'm disappointed the maintainer has opted to drop debconf support rather than fix it, given that the ntp config files are readily parsable using shell tools. (Incidentally, the NTP howto recommends configuring your machine to consult *three* geographically proximate lower-stratum servers for best results -- so it sounds like these new "reasonable defaults" contradict the advice of upstream?) OTOH, I'm quite certain that policy will never be changed to say "thou shalt not touch the config files of other packages, unless you're creating a CCD, then it's ok." This part of policy exists for a very good reason, and Enrico, Petter, and others are quite right to want to avoid the problems that come with doing this. > > The best solution Custom Debians came up so far to address this issue is > > to pre-seed hidden debconf questions, which are set to priorities so low > > that they never get asked. > Yeah, but low is not the priority never asked. > If you absolutely want to go with preseeded debconf values, maybe you > could ask Joey to allocate a priority "invisible" (or whatever you want > to call it) that is exclusively used to do CDD configuration where, as > in the case of NTP, prompting *a user* is completely unneccessary. > (I only searched the debconf bug list for "priority", so I'm not certain > that you didn't.) =2E.. your argument against the use of debconf is that questions at low priority will sometimes be asked? Um, anybody who runs debconf at low priority gets exactly what they ask for. Trying to create a separate priority with the explicit intention that the questions will *never* be asked would inappropriately overload debconf. --=20 Steve Langasek postmodern programmer --Y7xTucakfITjPcLV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAL56UKN6ufymYLloRAhQwAKDOtSQW755RGgtSjtcxcAR4Fg4p4gCgm+YB 5K58p/uvNj56c/s9cyUUWfI= =+sCl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Y7xTucakfITjPcLV-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 10:52:00 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsPUt-0002Ep-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:51:59 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id BB217EE53; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:51:59 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (quetzlcoatl.dodds.net [64.22.202.19]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA61EC6A for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:34:48 -0600 (CST) Received: by quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 63D723AE0; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:34:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:34:48 -0600 From: Steve Langasek To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215163447.GC7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> Mail-Followup-To: Debian Devel References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="w7PDEPdKQumQfZlR" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162860 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:51:59 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1788 Lines: 51 --w7PDEPdKQumQfZlR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 02:28:26PM +0100, Thomas Viehmann wrote: > AFAICT debconf is intended and presently advocated as a way to prompt > for defaults if they are absolutely needed. Specifically, it is not > intended as a way to store stuff. It is not intended to be the authoritative source of configuration information for the system. It most definitely *is* intended as a way to store stuff: it must be, in order for the config and postinst scripts to reliably communicate with one another. > How does your request correspond with the "debconf is not a registry" > mantra? Basically you seem to be advocating what many people have called > debconf abuse. You seem to misunderstand rather badly. No one here is saying that bugs that cause modified configs to be overwritten should not be corrected, only that the right way to address these bugs is by fixing the debconf support -- not by removing it. > One of the obvious things that got asked multiple but that none of the > 'keep debconf promt'ers answered is: Why is it critical for you to have > these defaults done with debconf as opposed to customizing config files? Because there is no other general-purpose, policy-compliant way to customize config files belonging to packages. --=20 Steve Langasek postmodern programmer --w7PDEPdKQumQfZlR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAL5+nKN6ufymYLloRAso1AJ4mnxjFI86M4ZsNgUKBUhbk+apcFgCfcMMg UTrCTEKND9tLD/gZrYxFXos= =A6DG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --w7PDEPdKQumQfZlR-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 10:56:41 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsPZR-0003I5-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:56:41 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id DEA3BEEA3; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:56:40 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from pob.cs.unibo.it (pob.cs.unibo.it [130.136.10.114]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE78EE93 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:56:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from le1.cs.unibo.it (backle.cs.unibo.it [130.136.10.110]) by pob.cs.unibo.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5392A1CD; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:56:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from giovanna.cs.unibo.it (postfix@giovanna.cs.unibo.it [130.136.4.231]) by le1.cs.unibo.it (8.9.3p2/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA29562; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:56:33 +0100 Received: by giovanna.cs.unibo.it (Postfix, from userid 2685) id 09513233C5; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:56:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:56:32 +0100 To: Thomas Viehmann Cc: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215165632.GA8008@cs.unibo.it> References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> <874qtss3qx.fsf@toncho.dhh.gt.org> <402FA1D5.1050200@beamnet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <402FA1D5.1050200@beamnet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: zinie@cs.unibo.it (Enrico Zini) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <6MkSLD.A.0dE.IT6LAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162861 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:56:40 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 937 Lines: 24 On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 05:44:05PM +0100, Thomas Viehmann wrote: > One of the failures of CDD protagonists seems to be to take influence on > the documentation. If they had added a description of their debconf use > to appropriate documents every deveoper consults (or ought to), they > would have avoided this altogether. (E.g. someone could add something > about debconf being used for CDDs to the Developer's Reference and > maintain a list of which debconf values are used for cutomization.) I totally agree. We're partly excused because the concept of CDDs is still quite new[1], however we are not completely allowed to complain until we make it easy for developers to have an idea of what is going on[2]. Ciao, Enrico [1] And, funnily, it will probably stay new until we'll start producing and announcing some good reference about them :) [2] I mean, of what extremely, outstandingly, awesomely cool thing is going on! :) From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 11:11:10 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsPnS-0005m8-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:11:10 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 2B2B3EEDD; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:11:09 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.beamnet.de (s217-115-138-13.colo.hosteurope.de [217.115.138.13]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E922CEE53 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:11:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from beamnet.de (dsl-213-023-248-202.arcor-ip.net [213.23.248.202]) (sasl authenticated) by mail.beamnet.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E579858524 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:11:07 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <402FA82A.1080705@beamnet.de> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:11:06 +0100 From: Thomas Viehmann Organization: beamNet User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215163447.GC7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> In-Reply-To: <20040215163447.GC7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigD6EDB0B372A5E1000CD91646" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162863 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:11:09 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 897 Lines: 33 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigD6EDB0B372A5E1000CD91646 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Langasek wrote: > You seem to misunderstand rather badly. No one here is saying that bugs Ah. Thanks for clearing this up for me. I don't think that this misunderstanding affects the arguement that an ntp question is not desirable, but this is better discussed elsewhere. Kind regards Thomas -- Thomas Viehmann, --------------enigD6EDB0B372A5E1000CD91646 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: GnuPG key at iD8DBQFAL6gqriZpaaIa1PkRApwAAJkBofYLvRBlbCGZKQ+Cifb+TGm6UACeI3pT J+YmOiAVEAzaNEYwLxLlg+4= =gnKA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigD6EDB0B372A5E1000CD91646-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 11:12:19 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsPoZ-0006Bi-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:12:19 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id C40EDEECA; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:12:19 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.beamnet.de (s217-115-138-13.colo.hosteurope.de [217.115.138.13]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1526EEEBD for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:12:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from beamnet.de (dsl-213-023-248-202.arcor-ip.net [213.23.248.202]) (sasl authenticated) by mail.beamnet.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F38453095 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:12:15 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <402FA86E.8040804@beamnet.de> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:12:14 +0100 From: Thomas Viehmann Organization: beamNet User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> <20040215163012.GB7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> In-Reply-To: <20040215163012.GB7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig36454426AB26139557561C43" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <5d1LMC.A.xiH.zh6LAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162865 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:12:19 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1503 Lines: 44 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig36454426AB26139557561C43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Langasek wrote: > ... your argument against the use of debconf is that questions at low > priority will sometimes be asked? Um, anybody who runs debconf at low > priority gets exactly what they ask for. Trying to create a separate > priority with the explicit intention that the questions will *never* be > asked would inappropriately overload debconf. My argument is that debconf priority low is defined to be used in user interaction. If, in the opinion of the maintainer, there is a resonable default, policy instructs him hat the interaction should be avoided. If CDDs want to use debconf in these cases, priority low is not appropriate. (For your reference of the NTP howto: The howto & faq on ntp.org contains dead links in the server selection section. My guess that it was written before there was pool.ntp.org.) Kind regards Thomas P.S.: Sorry for sending this privately only at first. -- Thomas Viehmann, --------------enig36454426AB26139557561C43 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: GnuPG key at iD8DBQFAL6huriZpaaIa1PkRAs1vAJ4kcsvHwQ4WxC7y/hC814ILhe59yQCgvwnV V1GMJ8bujcS3GRdY6pHEJ5k= =kBGS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig36454426AB26139557561C43-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 12:10:25 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsQim-0000Va-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:10:24 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 8E1ADEA0E; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:10:24 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from kheops.homeunix.org (lns-th2-5f-81-56-227-253.adsl.proxad.net [81.56.227.253]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94552E953 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:10:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kheops.homeunix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C912416F for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:10:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from kheops.homeunix.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (kheops [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12708-07 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:10:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from mykerinos.kheops.frmug.org (mykerinos.kheops.frmug.org [192.168.1.3]) by kheops.homeunix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59533404F for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:10:03 +0100 (CET) Received: by mykerinos.kheops.frmug.org (Postfix, from userid 7426) id 96D4DD05B; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:50:43 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:50:43 +0100 From: Christian Perrier To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215175043.GC2866@mykerinos> References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> X-message-flag: Outlook is a good virus spreading tool. It can send mail, too. X-pot_a_miel: honeypot@kheops.frmug.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p5 (Debian) at kheops.frmug.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162873 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:10:24 -0600 (CST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1618 Lines: 46 Quoting Thomas Viehmann (tv@beamnet.de): > How does your request correspond with the "debconf is not a registry" > mantra? Basically you seem to be advocating what many people have calle= d > debconf abuse. Hmmmm, I've read over and over about this "debconf abuse" and "debconf is not a registry" things. But, even with debian-installer, we use it as a registry..:-) (look at debian-installer/country, for instance.....this could be used by many many packages instead of promprting again and again for countries) Sure, debconf should not been abused, but I think that most of the time it is abuse by silly and useless notes. Not by settings questions. When it comes to asking something for setting up a package, debconf is an incredibly powerful system. Moreover, people fighting against debconf abuse seem to forget something=A0: debconf is currently the one and only way to ask for settings IN THE USER LANGUAGE. Debconf is a great tool in Debian i18n and we should try not to lose this. This does not mean that packages should prompt for each and every setting with debconf. This just means that when it is possible to make some settings easily with debconf, I don't think it's Evil to use it. The problem with debconf is mostly a misuse of priorities. "High" questions should be an exception, "critical" question should be very rare. The standard should be "low" priority, maybe "medium" when the corresponding setting has some importance for the package. But, please, folks, remember the importance debconf has for our distribution i18n.....even though I'm a bit biased when it comes to i18n...:-) From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 12:19:53 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsQrw-0002Mk-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:19:52 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 9467EEB2C; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:19:48 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from sa-2.airstreamcomm.net (sa-2.airstreamcomm.net [64.33.192.162]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21470EC22 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:19:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from hasler.dhh.gt.org (elk-ras2-cs-159.dial.airstreamcomm.net [64.33.138.161]) by sa-2.airstreamcomm.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0598223608 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:19:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (helo=toncho.dhh.gt.org ident=mail) by hasler.dhh.gt.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AsQrg-00026j-00 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:19:36 -0600 Received: from john by toncho.dhh.gt.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AsQr2-0005Iw-00 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:18:56 -0600 To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> <874qtss3qx.fsf@toncho.dhh.gt.org> <402FA1D5.1050200@beamnet.de> From: John Hasler Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:18:56 -0600 In-Reply-To: <402FA1D5.1050200@beamnet.de> (Thomas Viehmann's message of "Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:44:05 +0100") Message-ID: <87oes0qk8f.fsf@toncho.dhh.gt.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162874 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:19:48 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 688 Lines: 21 Thomas Viehmann writes: > If you absolutely want to go with preseeded debconf values, maybe you > could ask Joey to allocate a priority "invisible" (or whatever you want > to call it) that is exclusively used to do CDD configuration where, as in > the case of NTP, prompting *a user* is completely unneccessary. I wrote: > That would also require that debconf be made compulsory. Thomas Viehmann writes: > No, there always have been wish-list bugs to support debconf. (And > debconf for prompting is now recommended by policy. But the OP is asking that a package which does no prompting at all use debconf. -- John Hasler john@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 12:24:37 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsQwX-000332-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:24:37 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 214C6EA89; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:24:36 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (quetzlcoatl.dodds.net [64.22.202.19]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5EEE9BA for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:08:40 -0600 (CST) Received: by quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6D52B3AE0; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:08:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:08:36 -0600 From: Steve Langasek To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215180836.GG7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> Mail-Followup-To: Debian Devel References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> <20040215163012.GB7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> <402FA86E.8040804@beamnet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Cp3Cp8fzgozWLBWL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <402FA86E.8040804@beamnet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <6hETEC.A.7LE.kl7LAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162875 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:24:36 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2237 Lines: 59 --Cp3Cp8fzgozWLBWL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 06:12:14PM +0100, Thomas Viehmann wrote: > Steve Langasek wrote: > > ... your argument against the use of debconf is that questions at low > > priority will sometimes be asked? Um, anybody who runs debconf at low > > priority gets exactly what they ask for. Trying to create a separate > > priority with the explicit intention that the questions will *never* be > > asked would inappropriately overload debconf. > My argument is that debconf priority low is defined to be used in user > interaction. If, in the opinion of the maintainer, there is a resonable > default, policy instructs him hat the interaction should be avoided. > If CDDs want to use debconf in these cases, priority low is not appropria= te. There is no reason why users should not be *given the option* of adjusting these settings through debconf interaction, if the code is already there to use debconf. Policy describes perfectly well the user's package configuration experience when running debconf at high priority (assuming no per-package bugs). Everything that can be configured at medium or below is icing anyway. > (For your reference of the NTP howto: The howto & faq on ntp.org > contains dead links in the server selection section. My guess that it > was written before there was pool.ntp.org.) Actually, this is fundamental to the NTP protocol; you get a more accurate clock if you can cross-reference the timestamps between multiple servers. Pointing to pool.ntp.org may give you a consistently accessible *single* server, but you don't get the assurance of having multiple referents. (You'll just have a single referent, which may be a different server each time you poll it.) --=20 Steve Langasek postmodern programmer --Cp3Cp8fzgozWLBWL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAL7WjKN6ufymYLloRAsS7AKCiSeEDnews5aTN9ofVP0FTK56YRwCgk37/ 0gamDlUwWJ5HduLPr022pGU= =axC2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Cp3Cp8fzgozWLBWL-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 12:44:03 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsRFL-0004s9-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:44:03 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 0CAD6EAB3; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:44:02 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [193.201.200.170]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5CAE893 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:44:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from [192.168.124.112] (helo=riva.lab.dotat.at) by chiark.greenend.org.uk (Debian Exim 3.35 #1) with esmtp for debian-devel@lists.debian.org id 1AsRFH-0001Ir-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:44:00 +0000 Received: from cjwatson by riva.lab.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) for debian-devel@lists.debian.org id 1AsRFH-0006Jv-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:43:59 +0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:43:59 +0000 From: Colin Watson To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215184359.GB24126@riva.ucam.org> Mail-Followup-To: Debian Devel References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215175043.GC2866@mykerinos> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040215175043.GC2866@mykerinos> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162878 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:44:02 -0600 (CST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1062 Lines: 26 On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 06:50:43PM +0100, Christian Perrier wrote: > Hmmmm, I've read over and over about this "debconf abuse" and "debconf > is not a registry" things. >=20 > But, even with debian-installer, we use it as a registry..:-) (look at > debian-installer/country, for instance.....this could be used by many > many packages instead of promprting again and again for countries) debian-installer is essentially one integrated installation sequence, and you don't have to worry that people will delete the debconf cache from under you or edit configuration files by hand in the middle of the installation which would then need to be re-read. This is not the case in the Debian system proper. > Moreover, people fighting against debconf abuse seem to forget > something=A0: debconf is currently the one and only way to ask for > settings IN THE USER LANGUAGE. Surely not? While people may not use it much, gettext(1) is available and can be used from postinsts. Cheers, --=20 Colin Watson [cjwatson@flatline.org.uk] From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 13:42:46 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsSA9-0008SP-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:42:45 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id E76BAEE54; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:42:44 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (quetzlcoatl.dodds.net [64.22.202.19]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75EA8EDB7 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:25:56 -0600 (CST) Received: by quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DBF3E3AE1; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:25:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:25:55 -0600 From: Steve Langasek To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215192555.GK7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> Mail-Followup-To: Debian Devel References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215175043.GC2866@mykerinos> <20040215184359.GB24126@riva.ucam.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pWOmaDnDlrCGjNh4" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040215184359.GB24126@riva.ucam.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162885 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:42:44 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1910 Lines: 54 --pWOmaDnDlrCGjNh4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 06:43:59PM +0000, Colin Watson wrote: > On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 06:50:43PM +0100, Christian Perrier wrote: > > Hmmmm, I've read over and over about this "debconf abuse" and "debconf > > is not a registry" things. > > But, even with debian-installer, we use it as a registry..:-) (look at > > debian-installer/country, for instance.....this could be used by many > > many packages instead of promprting again and again for countries) > debian-installer is essentially one integrated installation sequence, > and you don't have to worry that people will delete the debconf cache > from under you or edit configuration files by hand in the middle of the > installation which would then need to be re-read. This is not the case > in the Debian system proper. =2E.. moreover, I'm pretty sure d-i will still DTRT if you did muddle with the cache mid-install. (Or if not, it's only because cdebconf keeps its cache *in memory*... :) > > Moreover, people fighting against debconf abuse seem to forget > > something=A0: debconf is currently the one and only way to ask for > > settings IN THE USER LANGUAGE. > Surely not? While people may not use it much, gettext(1) is available > and can be used from postinsts. The proposed replacement for debconf note abuse is apt-listchanges + NEWS.Debian, for which there is currently no l10n mechanism. --=20 Steve Langasek postmodern programmer --pWOmaDnDlrCGjNh4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAL8fCKN6ufymYLloRAnZ4AKCleQh+UotLQmTaWUng5OQWviZSWgCggP87 54jkG2ffKNxD8SH1cUIF9zk= =Zyyd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pWOmaDnDlrCGjNh4-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 13:49:33 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsSGj-0000cy-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:49:33 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 07D34EB63; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:49:32 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D988EB28 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:49:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from mizar.alcor.net ([68.64.159.24]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20040215194915.WAWS12673.mta10.adelphia.net@mizar.alcor.net> for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:49:15 -0500 Received: from mdz by mizar.alcor.net with local (Exim 4.30) id 1AsSGR-0006Gn-EU for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:49:15 -0800 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:49:15 -0800 From: Matt Zimmerman To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215194915.GI12277@alcor.net> Mail-Followup-To: Debian Devel References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215175043.GC2866@mykerinos> <20040215184359.GB24126@riva.ucam.org> <20040215192555.GK7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040215192555.GK7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: Matt Zimmerman X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162887 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:49:32 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 373 Lines: 12 On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 01:25:55PM -0600, Steve Langasek wrote: > The proposed replacement for debconf note abuse is apt-listchanges + > NEWS.Debian, for which there is currently no l10n mechanism. This doesn't seem to be an insurmountable problem at all. If someone wants to write NEWS.Debian. files, I'll have apt-listchanges read and display them. -- - mdz From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 14:28:29 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsSsP-0006YT-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:28:29 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id A636EECE6; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:28:29 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from duch.mimuw.edu.pl (duch.mimuw.edu.pl [193.0.96.2]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64635E8FD for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:10:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by duch.mimuw.edu.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A48C5959 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:10:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from duch.mimuw.edu.pl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (duch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15186-05 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:10:19 +0100 (CET) Received: by duch.mimuw.edu.pl (Postfix, from userid 1332) id 788065946; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:10:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by duch.mimuw.edu.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705C86002 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:10:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:10:19 +0100 (CET) From: Adam Borowski To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers In-Reply-To: <20040215121720.GC25167@cloud.net.au> Message-ID: References: <20040215121720.GC25167@cloud.net.au> Organization: Warsaw University MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mimuw.edu.pl X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162891 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:28:29 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1114 Lines: 25 On Sun, 15 Feb 2004, Hamish Moffatt wrote: > In this particular case, the ntp authors removed its debconf use because > they believed it was better if it required no configuration at all. > Isn't that even better than being able to preconfigure it? What extra > configuration of that package do you require? Perhaps I'm missing something, but I fail to see how using a random NTP server from the second end of the world can be better than using a server that's a hat throw from you, especially for such a time-dependant service as NTP. Having the ability to choose the server in an easy generic way is helluva better, even if that way is hidden as a low priority debconf question. Sure, you can edit the conf file by hand, but an interface that's common for a lot of packages, like the one provided by debconf, is a lot better. What's the reason for axing working code for something that breaks the expected locality of ntp? Regards, 1KB /-----------------------\ Shh, be vewy, vewy quiet, | kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl | I'm hunting wuntime ewwows! \-----------------------/ Segmentation fault (core dumped) From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 14:29:16 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsStA-0006tV-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:29:16 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id DAA3DED20; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:29:15 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from server.smurf.noris.de (disk.smurf.noris.de [192.109.102.53]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2ADFEC01 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:28:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from news by server.smurf.noris.de with local (Exim 4.30) id 1AsSsf-0004NT-Ts for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:28:45 +0000 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Path: not-for-mail From: Matthias Urlichs Newsgroups: smurf.list.debian.devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:28:45 +0100 Organization: {M:U} IT Consulting Message-ID: References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> <20040215163012.GB7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> <402FA86E.8040804@beamnet.de> <20040215180836.GG7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kiste.smurf.noris.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: server.smurf.noris.de 1076876925 16165 192.109.102.35 (15 Feb 2004 20:28:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: smurf@noris.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:28:45 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table) X-Face: '&-&kxR\8+Pqalw@VzN\p?]]eIYwRDxvrwEM Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162892 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:29:15 -0600 (CST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 895 Lines: 20 Hi, Steve Langasek wrote: > Actually, this is fundamental to the NTP protocol; you get a more accur= ate > clock if you can cross-reference the timestamps between multiple server= s.=20 > Pointing to pool.ntp.org may give you a consistently accessible *single= * > server, but you don't get the assurance of having multiple referents.=20 > (You'll just have a single referent, which may be a different server ea= ch > time you poll it.) Sure you do. NTP caches the IP address, and BIND round-robins or randomizes multiple addresses on one hostname. Thus, if you have three pool.ntp.org lines in your /etc/ntp.conf, you get three stable servers (until you restart the server, then you get three different ones). We did not want to do this by default because we didn't (yet?) ask the pool.ntp.org people whether that would be acceptable. It's their servers, after all. --=20 Matthias Urlichs From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 14:34:06 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsSxp-0000G7-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:34:05 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 41F92E8FD; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:34:04 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from server.smurf.noris.de (disk.smurf.noris.de [192.109.102.53]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3CFCEC54 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:33:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from news by server.smurf.noris.de with local (Exim 4.30) id 1AsStt-0004PQ-8M for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:30:01 +0000 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Path: not-for-mail From: Matthias Urlichs Newsgroups: smurf.list.debian.devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:30:01 +0100 Organization: {M:U} IT Consulting Message-ID: References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> <20040215163012.GB7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kiste.smurf.noris.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: server.smurf.noris.de 1076877001 16165 192.109.102.35 (15 Feb 2004 20:30:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: smurf@noris.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:30:01 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table) X-Face: '&-&kxR\8+Pqalw@VzN\p?]]eIYwRDxvrwEM Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162893 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:34:04 -0600 (CST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 364 Lines: 11 Hi, Steve Langasek wrote: > (Incidentally, the NTP howto recommends configuring your machine to > consult *three* geographically proximate lower-stratum servers for best > results -- so it sounds like these new "reasonable defaults" contradict > the advice of upstream?) These days, network topology correlates quite badly to geography. --=20 Matthias Urlichs From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 15:06:07 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsTSp-00051Q-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:06:07 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 9BE88ED71; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:06:07 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (quetzlcoatl.dodds.net [64.22.202.19]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D742EEA06 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:50:23 -0600 (CST) Received: by quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B50F83AE1; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:50:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:50:22 -0600 From: Steve Langasek To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215205022.GN7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> <20040215163012.GB7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="McpcKDxJRrEJVmOH" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162897 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:06:07 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1182 Lines: 38 --McpcKDxJRrEJVmOH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 09:30:01PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote: > > (Incidentally, the NTP howto recommends configuring your machine to > > consult *three* geographically proximate lower-stratum servers for best > > results -- so it sounds like these new "reasonable defaults" contradict > > the advice of upstream?) > These days, network topology correlates quite badly to geography. And round-robin DNS correlates to it not at all. My reference to "geography" was intended as convenient shorthand only; I have in fact selected our NTP peers based on round-trip time, and the RTT does happen to correlate with geographical proximity. --=20 Steve Langasek postmodern programmer --McpcKDxJRrEJVmOH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAL9uNKN6ufymYLloRAomPAKDBF0/2CWvT4OvRbZiexcS5sn6WWwCePXG/ JPbbtCqeBsZnEQWYgTHyf7E= =/smC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --McpcKDxJRrEJVmOH-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 15:11:44 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsTYG-0006IK-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:11:44 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id C4142ED2F; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:11:43 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (quetzlcoatl.dodds.net [64.22.202.19]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1119EEA31 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:56:04 -0600 (CST) Received: by quetzlcoatl.dodds.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B659E3AE1; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:56:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:56:03 -0600 From: Steve Langasek To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215205603.GO7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> <20040215163012.GB7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> <402FA86E.8040804@beamnet.de> <20040215180836.GG7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0u4QAjBqqw4+MLTw" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162899 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:11:43 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1675 Lines: 53 --0u4QAjBqqw4+MLTw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 09:28:45PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote: > Hi, Steve Langasek wrote: > > Actually, this is fundamental to the NTP protocol; you get a more accur= ate > > clock if you can cross-reference the timestamps between multiple server= s.=20 > > Pointing to pool.ntp.org may give you a consistently accessible *single* > > server, but you don't get the assurance of having multiple referents.= =20 > > (You'll just have a single referent, which may be a different server ea= ch > > time you poll it.) > Sure you do. NTP caches the IP address, and BIND round-robins or > randomizes multiple addresses on one hostname. > Thus, if you have three pool.ntp.org lines in your /etc/ntp.conf, you get > three stable servers (until you restart the server, then you get > three different ones). We did not want to do this by default because we > didn't (yet?) ask the pool.ntp.org people whether that would be > acceptable. It's their servers, after all. Ah, ok -- *that* sounds like something that would be a reasonable default (whereas pointing to one server at a time, as far as I understand NTP, would not be). Cheers, --=20 Steve Langasek postmodern programmer --0u4QAjBqqw4+MLTw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAL9ziKN6ufymYLloRAiH7AJ4iqdJTMY1svR/i7D+Ub74xkw6tiQCfbqgA uAO8fLRYd26ofr2o+ylxge8= =P0sk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0u4QAjBqqw4+MLTw-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 15:57:16 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsUGK-0006h2-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:57:16 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4DAEAEE79; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:57:16 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from kheops.homeunix.org (lns-th2-5f-81-56-227-253.adsl.proxad.net [81.56.227.253]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A7BED48 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:57:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kheops.homeunix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1CD7416E for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:57:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from kheops.homeunix.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (kheops [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16979-04 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:57:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from mykerinos.kheops.frmug.org (mykerinos.kheops.frmug.org [192.168.1.3]) by kheops.homeunix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F1D404F for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:57:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (mykerinos.kheops.frmug.org [127.0.0.1]) by mykerinos.kheops.frmug.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21456D064 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:57:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from mykerinos.kheops.frmug.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mykerinos [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31034-10 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:57:00 +0100 (CET) Received: by mykerinos.kheops.frmug.org (Postfix, from userid 7426) id 75A67D05B; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:57:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:57:00 +0100 From: Christian Perrier To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215215700.GG2866@mykerinos> References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215175043.GC2866@mykerinos> <20040215184359.GB24126@riva.ucam.org> <20040215192555.GK7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> <20040215194915.GI12277@alcor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040215194915.GI12277@alcor.net> X-message-flag: Outlook is a good virus spreading tool. It can send mail, too. X-pot_a_miel: honeypot@kheops.frmug.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p7 (Debian) at mykerinos X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p5 (Debian) at kheops.frmug.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162910 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:57:16 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1262 Lines: 33 Quoting Matt Zimmerman (mdz@debian.org): > This doesn't seem to be an insurmountable problem at all. If someone wants > to write NEWS.Debian. files, I'll have apt-listchanges read and > display them. And the whole working schemes translations teams already have for properly dealing with po-debconf translations (such as http://people.debian.org/~barbier/intl/l10n/) will have to be invented again. Of course, in the meantime, people dropping debconf notes will also have dropped translations and thus good work will have to be done again.... This is basically why I'm more in favour of lowering existing debconf notes to "low" but *not* turning all of them into NEWS.Debian. Of course, if some debconf2NEWS script comes around, I may for sure change my mind.... Currently, there are nearly NO NEWS.Debian. files mostly because nothing really uses them.....or because translation teams are busy enough with debconf/po-debconf/web site/man pages/whatever translations. (also because they have to deal with a few lazy maintainers who don't care about quickly incorporate their work....and some other who don't care about making their work easier-->there are still a few hundreds strings lying in non-po debconf templates, for instance.....) From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 16:06:57 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsUPh-0007Hi-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:06:57 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id F0C56EB2C; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:06:56 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mta13.adelphia.net (mta13.mail.adelphia.net [68.168.78.44]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F38FE8BE for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:06:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from mizar.alcor.net ([68.64.159.24]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20040215220654.FFNC28190.mta13.adelphia.net@mizar.alcor.net> for ; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:06:54 -0500 Received: from mdz by mizar.alcor.net with local (Exim 4.30) id 1AsUPd-0007N9-Ew for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:06:53 -0800 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:06:53 -0800 From: Matt Zimmerman To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215220653.GK12277@alcor.net> Mail-Followup-To: Debian Devel References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215175043.GC2866@mykerinos> <20040215184359.GB24126@riva.ucam.org> <20040215192555.GK7058@quetzlcoatl.dodds.net> <20040215194915.GI12277@alcor.net> <20040215215700.GG2866@mykerinos> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040215215700.GG2866@mykerinos> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: Matt Zimmerman X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=4.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <__fY6.A.mKG.A2-LAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162911 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:06:56 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 672 Lines: 20 On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 10:57:00PM +0100, Christian Perrier wrote: > Quoting Matt Zimmerman (mdz@debian.org): > > > This doesn't seem to be an insurmountable problem at all. If someone wants > > to write NEWS.Debian. files, I'll have apt-listchanges read and > > display them. > > And the whole working schemes translations teams already have for > properly dealing with po-debconf translations (such as > http://people.debian.org/~barbier/intl/l10n/) will have to be invented > again. Fine, do it like a .po file so that you can use the existing infrastructure. It doesn't really matter to me, as long as all of the useless debconf notes go away. -- - mdz From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 15 17:20:26 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsVYn-0003Gt-00; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:20:25 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id BE33CEF11; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:20:25 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from elpis.telenet-ops.be (elpis.telenet-ops.be [195.130.132.40]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E583EF31; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:20:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (adicia.telenet-ops.be [195.130.132.56]) by elpis.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D8E437EFF; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:20:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from folk.grep.be (D5E02C4B.kabel.telenet.be [213.224.44.75]) by adicia.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD9F1F7087; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:20:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from [2001:838:37f:20:2c0:dfff:fef2:8eae] (helo=rock.grep.be) by folk.grep.be with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AsVYe-0008Fb-00; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:20:16 +0100 Received: from wouter by rock.grep.be with local (Exim 4.30) id 1AsVYd-0005eI-FL; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:20:15 +0100 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:20:15 +0100 To: Petter Reinholdtsen Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, debian-edu@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040215232015.GA20621@grep.be> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Speed: Gates"'" Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Wouter Verhelst X-Debian-Message: suspicious IP address in Received: line - could be one of cyberpromo's tricks "[2001" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162926 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:20:25 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 3866 Lines: 86 --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 10:04:01AM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: [debconf preseeding makes mass-configuration easy] > What should we do to make sure all the packages we need to configure > at install time are configurable in a standardized way, preferably > using debconf preseeding? Hm. Perhaps debconf preseeding isn't the right tool, then. It appears to me that debconf currently has two entirely distinct types of users, with sometimes conflicting requirements. On the one hand, there're a number of people that want to install their personal system. These people want to be asked something when a package wouldn't work without configuration and doesn't have reasonable defaults, but they don't want to be asked a gazillion of questions. Hence, the number of questions should be low for this class of users. On the other hand, there's a bunch of system administrators that want to configure a high number of their systems in the same way. They don't actually want a high number of questions; what they want is flexibility. Since in the case of debconf the flexibility increases with an increasing number of questions, these people want more questions; but since they don't actually go and manually answer each of them, it is not the case that they'd care if there were less questions, as long as the flexibility remains. Once way to fix this issue would be to use part of the debconf API, i.e., the priorities, where questions rather aimed to sysadmins -those just meant to make a flexible enough configuration using debconf preseeding possible- are given priority 'low', while questions meant to make the initial installation a bit easier are given a higher priority. The problem with this approach is that it doesn't really scale all that well. It requires glue code between the debconf database and the packages' configuration files, which will be nontrivial if the configuration file format isn't too trivial either. That's not much a problem when debconf is only used to fill in the blanks for configuration parameters where defaults aren't reasonable; but it becomes more of an issue for situations that require a higher level of flexibility. When there's more code, there's also a higher probability of bugs, not to mention the fact that the code has to be written first, which takes up a considerable amount of time. My question is: why bother? What sysadmins really want is a way to get configuration on the target system without having to do much about it; debconf is a way to do that, but maybe not optimal, given the above. Perhaps it's better to do it differently. One way could be to add a general system to distribute configuration files; e.g., adding a hook to dpkg that would check whether a certain option has been set, and that would kick in when a conffile is being written to disk; if that dpkg configuration option has been set, instead of getting the conffile out of the .deb, dpkg could then retrieve the configuration file from a different location, such as from a server that would contain it, or from a CD-ROM or so. How's that sound? --=20 Wouter Verhelst Debian GNU/Linux -- http://www.debian.org Nederlandstalige Linux-documentatie -- http://nl.linux.org "Stop breathing down my neck." "My breathing is merely a simulation." "So is my neck, stop it anyway!" -- Voyager's EMH versus the Prometheus' EMH, stardate 51462. --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAL/6vWgZ1HEtaPf0RAnEIAJ47TYkkd7VJQhMkfpqnfCsNJSLRuwCcDTGz wPNd8H/cZrA0RHEK/JdnRr4= =SY7d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR-- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Feb 16 02:21:02 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1Asdzx-00014s-00; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:21:01 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id CAA21EBAC; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:21:01 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from rivejern.informatik.uni-freiburg.de (rivejern.informatik.uni-freiburg.de [132.230.166.130]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1BD1EC52 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:20:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from ganymed.informatik.uni-freiburg.de ([132.230.151.160]) by rivejern.informatik.uni-freiburg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Asdzr-0007Dv-TE for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:20:55 +0100 Received: (from blink@localhost) by ganymed.informatik.uni-freiburg.de (8.11.6p3/8.11.6) id i1G8KsS03724 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:20:54 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:20:54 +0100 From: "Bernhard R. Link" To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040216082054.GA3382@ganymed.informatik.uni-freiburg.de> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040215232015.GA20621@grep.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040215232015.GA20621@grep.be> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162963 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:21:01 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 3084 Lines: 63 * Wouter Verhelst [040216 00:20]: > On the other hand, there's a bunch of system administrators that want to > configure a high number of their systems in the same way. They don't > actually want a high number of questions; what they want is flexibility. > Since in the case of debconf the flexibility increases with an > increasing number of questions, these people want more questions; but > since they don't actually go and manually answer each of them, it is not > the case that they'd care if there were less questions, as long as the > flexibility remains. Well, and then there are system administrators, that want real flexibility. And there is nothing as flexible as putting that config file of the package to the place it belongs to. You cannot get felexibility by adding new layers. Debconf can only be a help for simple users wanting to get fast to an useable system. Any question unneeded for proper working or any question not asked needed for this will make the whole to an absurd monster you have to cope with instead of doing real work... > The problem with this approach is that it doesn't really scale all that > well. It requires glue code between the debconf database and the > packages' configuration files, which will be nontrivial if the > configuration file format isn't too trivial either. That's not much a > problem when debconf is only used to fill in the blanks for > configuration parameters where defaults aren't reasonable; but it > becomes more of an issue for situations that require a higher level of > flexibility. When there's more code, there's also a higher probability > of bugs, not to mention the fact that the code has to be written first, > which takes up a considerable amount of time. Why invent new solutions, that are doomed to fail? There are plenty of possibilities to get system configured for sysadmins: custom .deb's just copying files to /etc, cfengine, rsync and multiple other things. You will always need them, as you will most probably never reach a state where you can configure everything you need in debconf. (Except when you define the good old /etc ad debconf's database...) > My question is: why bother? What sysadmins really want is a way to get > configuration on the target system without having to do much about it; > debconf is a way to do that, but maybe not optimal, given the above. > > Perhaps it's better to do it differently. One way could be to add a > general system to distribute configuration files; e.g., adding a hook to > dpkg that would check whether a certain option has been set, and that > would kick in when a conffile is being written to disk; if that dpkg > configuration option has been set, instead of getting the conffile out > of the .deb, dpkg could then retrieve the configuration file from a > different location, such as from a server that would contain it, or from > a CD-ROM or so. > > How's that sound? Like returning to Windows... Hochachtungsvoll, Bernhard R. Link -- Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing an editor and a MTA. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Feb 18 03:27:07 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AtNz1-0005JD-00; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:27:07 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 5DBE6EA16; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:27:06 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from minerva.hungry.com (unknown [195.76.127.228]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041AFE8A4 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:26:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from pere by minerva.hungry.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1At4Lv-0006zV-00 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:29:27 +0100 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:29:27 +0100 From: Petter Reinholdtsen To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040217122927.GA26803@minerva.hungry.com> References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Petter Reinholdtsen X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=4.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_12_24 autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/163100 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:27:06 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2164 Lines: 50 [Thomas Viehmann] > Yeah, but low is not the priority never asked. > If you absolutely want to go with preseeded debconf values, maybe > you could ask Joey to allocate a priority "invisible" (or whatever > you want to call it) that is exclusively used to do CDD > configuration where, as in the case of NTP, prompting *a user* is > completely unneccessary. This is possible at the moment. All you need to do is to have "hidden" debconf questions with no code to present the question, and only code to set and get the value. Something like this in the config script: if [ -f /etc/configfile ] value=`get_value /etc/configfile` db_set hidden/debconf/value "$value" fi and in the postinst script, one read the current value: db_get hidden/debconf/value modify_value_unless_equal /etc/configfile "$RET" This way the value in the debconf database is used unless the file in /etc/ exist already, and the value in the current configuration file is used if the file exist. We had added two such invisible debconf questions to the ntp package, to enable a local NTP server. Debian Edu are trying to get more such questions into the packages we use, and continue to supply patches to make this happen. All I am asking for is that we don't have to do this work more then once for each package. :) > The thing that really disturbed me about the discussion is that the > subject and introduction of Petter's mail suggested that package > maintainers are unwilling to cooperate when they're only trying to > reach policy goals (and minimization of user interaction is an > eplicit goal in policy). I did not intend this. I believe and hope we will be able to work out a solution that give us the best of both a good standard configuration and the flexibility to preconfigure the packages differently at install time. > If you CDD guys (presently) need debconf for purposes other than > user interaction (and again, I would not have any problem with > that), you need to propose a way to do this and not whine about > people cutting out debconf where user interaction is not needed. I hope my pseudo-code above is a step in the right direction. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Feb 18 03:29:11 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AtO11-0005RR-00; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:29:11 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 7D8E8EA48; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:29:11 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from minerva.hungry.com (unknown [195.76.127.228]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A87E8A4 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:29:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from pere by minerva.hungry.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1At4PE-000709-00 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:32:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:32:52 +0100 From: Petter Reinholdtsen To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040217123252.GB26803@minerva.hungry.com> References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> <874qtss3qx.fsf@toncho.dhh.gt.org> <402FA1D5.1050200@beamnet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <402FA1D5.1050200@beamnet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Petter Reinholdtsen X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=4.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_12_24 autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <6H68WB.A.15H.nBzMAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/163101 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:29:11 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 690 Lines: 13 [Thomas Viehmann] > One of the failures of CDD protagonists seems to be to take influence on > the documentation. If they had added a description of their debconf use > to appropriate documents every deveoper consults (or ought to), they > would have avoided this altogether. (E.g. someone could add something > about debconf being used for CDDs to the Developer's Reference and > maintain a list of which debconf values are used for cutomization.) I agree, this is a very good idea. We have not been doing a good job communicating our needs and recommondations. I'll try to bring this up at the meeting being held tomorrow to discuss the needs of CCDs, . From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Feb 18 10:55:15 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AtUyh-0002uu-00; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:55:15 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id E69E1ECCE; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:55:14 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.beamnet.de (s217-115-138-13.colo.hosteurope.de [217.115.138.13]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C9BEBF3 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:54:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from beamnet.de (dsl-082-082-224-125.arcor-ip.net [82.82.224.125]) (sasl authenticated) by mail.beamnet.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B93158B1F for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:54:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <403398DE.2090703@beamnet.de> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:54:54 +0100 From: Thomas Viehmann Organization: beamNet User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Debian Devel Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: <402F73FA.8000102@beamnet.de> <20040215134924.GA3858@cs.unibo.it> <402F82C6.2070402@beamnet.de> <20040217122927.GA26803@minerva.hungry.com> In-Reply-To: <20040217122927.GA26803@minerva.hungry.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig36AAE3752E4DD03D42C070E4" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <3zkMDD.A.Yj.yj5MAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/163121 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:55:14 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1386 Lines: 44 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig36AAE3752E4DD03D42C070E4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: [a lot of interesting thins.] >>The thing that really disturbed me about the discussion is that the >>subject and introduction of Petter's mail suggested that package >>maintainers are unwilling to cooperate when they're only trying to >>reach policy goals (and minimization of user interaction is an >>eplicit goal in policy). > I did not intend this. I believe and hope we will be able to work out > a solution that give us the best of both a good standard configuration > and the flexibility to preconfigure the packages differently at > install time. Sorry for the misinterpretation. > I hope my pseudo-code above is a step in the right direction. It's certainly an interesting alternative to scrapping debconf questions altogether... Kind regards Thomas -- Thomas Viehmann, --------------enig36AAE3752E4DD03D42C070E4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: GnuPG key at iD8DBQFAM5jeriZpaaIa1PkRAvn5AKD0ztYh2KOYzbiHx5pwz78RBA2E5QCg9zo1 rWezWyX+6EChU4/CKVw6/NI= =LA6k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig36AAE3752E4DD03D42C070E4-- From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Feb 19 06:52:30 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AtnfJ-0001tX-00; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:52:29 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4F354EB3D; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:52:29 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from rzcomm7.rz.tu-bs.de (rzcomm7.rz.tu-bs.de [134.169.9.53]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDCFF1CE for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:34:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rzcomm7.rz.tu-bs.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id i1JCYKi29929 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:34:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from rzcomm7.rz.tu-bs.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (rzcomm7 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29469-02-7 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:34:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from rzcomm12.rz.tu-bs.de (rzcomm12.rz.tu-bs.de [134.169.9.59]) by rzcomm7.rz.tu-bs.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id i1JCXu629881 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:33:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from rzpool03.rz.tu-bs.de (rzpool03.rz.tu-bs.de [134.169.9.218]) by rzcomm12.rz.tu-bs.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id i1JCXud02501 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:33:56 +0100 (MET) Received: (from y0008258@localhost) by rzpool03.rz.tu-bs.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183+JAGae58098)/8.8.6) id NAA22903 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:33:55 +0100 (MET) From: "C. Gatzemeier" To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:48:07 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200402191348.07879.c.gatzemeier@tu-bs.de> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tu-bs.de X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60-lists.debian.org_2003_12_03 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/163240 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:52:29 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1229 Lines: 36 Preconfiguring is only one thing for CDDs, another is handling configurations in running systems and defaults would need to be tha same. Searching the archive I found already one message[1] about CFG. The combination of debconf and CFG seems to be very beneficial also for stock debian. Debconf could keep track of config settings before and after package installations and prompts for settings for new packages that can not be determined through CFG or are high priority. This way defaults could be specified in CFGs meta-config definition files for packages. Those files could be included in packages and be overridden to meet custom needs if necessary. Another issue about future debconf development I found is "Debconf vs. graphical installer"[2] and here too a combination of debconf and the CFG framework could show the way to a nice solution. Are there allready some plans for the future? Some more information about CFG is available here: http://freedesktop.org/Main/CFG Christian [1] (pre)configuring packages http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/debian-devel-200401/msg01028.html [2] Debconf vs. graphical installer http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2003/debian-boot-200307/msg00592.html From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Feb 24 07:44:04 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1Avcqy-0000lT-00; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:44:04 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4C8B2F42A; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:44:04 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from praksys.org (praksys.org [213.41.146.217]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3AEBF403; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:43:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from foobaar.abadcafe.net (foobaar.abadcafe.net [192.168.17.99]) by praksys.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B12E23F; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:43:48 +0100 (CET) From: guillaume pernot Reply-To: gpernot@praksys.org Organization: praksys To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:43:33 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 Cc: debian-nonprofit@lists.debian.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200402241357.49295.gpernot@praksys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/163734 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:44:04 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2810 Lines: 86 yep, I've read this long thread and some points come to mind : 1- Non-interactive installation : as said before [DEBCONF-LEVEL], there is two configuration levels : - end-user level, that should install really non-interactively ; - power-user level, that let the installer tweak the config, still beeing compatible with the end-user case ; debconf frontend is a tool of choice for acheveing that. - For a end-user, debconf configuration should be : * debconf/priority: medium * debconf/frontend: Noninteractive - For a power-user : * debconf/priority: low * debconf/frontend: Dialog that's the debian way, IMHO. The "Noninteractive" frontend just keep default values for all registered templates. 2- debconf pre-seeding ( isn't that "pre-feeding" ? i'm not a native english speaker, but , AFAICS, pre-feeding seems to better match the concept ) The point now is feeding debconf with coherent default values that _will_ be different from stock Debian releases. As said before [DEBIAN-STOCK], trying to change default values from stock-Debian packages can be a waste of time. A "Custom Debian Distro" has to, errr..., customize its distribution ! that is making its own packages. An easy way may be using dbs [DBS] to maintain a BSD-like port system. I use it every day to maintain my own custom debian [PRAKSYS]. ( forget my gory scripts, but watch the idea ;)... i still have a lot of cleanups to do ) this way, a CDD can have its own debconf tree from where each customized package can take relevant config. e.g. : CDD/host/name CDD/network/lan/fqdn CDD/network/lan/interface CDD/network/lan/netmask CDD/network/lan/gateway CDD/network/ipsec/fqdn CDD/network/ipsec/interface CDD/network/ipsec/netmask CDD/network/ipsec/gateway ... and so on... 3- another point, is beeing able to have a remote debconf database (for network-wide configurations) and a local one (for, err..., local configurations). for the previous example, CDD/network hierarchy can be stored on the network-server, while CDD/host is host-specific... cheers, guillaume pernot [DEBCONF-LEVEL] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/debian-devel-200402/msg00911.html [DEBIAN-STOCK] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/debian-devel-200402/msg00801.html [DBS] http://packages.debian.org/stable/devel/dbs [PRAKSYS] a straigth-forward example : http://praksys.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/pool/g/ganglia-monitor-core/ganglia-monitor-core/debian/patches/30praksys-config.diff?rev=1.5&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup generated packages can be found at : http://download.gna.org/praksys/praksys/ganglia-monitor-core_2.5.5-4praksys0.tar.gz http://download.gna.org/praksys/praksys/ganglia-monitor_2.5.5-4praksys0_i386.deb http://download.gna.org/praksys/praksys/ganglia-webfrontend_2.5.5-4praksys0_i386.deb From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 29 05:23:30 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AxP2g-0007OV-00; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 05:23:30 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id A4F0EED68; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 05:23:30 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from micha.hampshire.edu (unknown [192.101.188.235]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E265ED54 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 05:23:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha ([127.0.0.1] helo=kamna ident=mako) by micha.hampshire.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AxP2E-0006Iq-00 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 06:23:02 -0500 Received: from mako by kamna with local (Exim 4.30) id 1AxMrs-0008QL-Dj for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 01:04:12 -0800 Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:04:12 +0000 From: "Benj. Mako Hill" To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fdj2RfSjLxBAspz7" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: "Benj. Mako Hill" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164034 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 05:23:30 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 3214 Lines: 77 --fdj2RfSjLxBAspz7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry I'm replying to this almost two weeks after fact but I've been traveling recently but definitely wanted to weigh in on this topic. On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 10:04:01AM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > The issue provoking this email is the new ntp packages, removing the > code we got added to be able to install the package with correct > configuration. But I suspect there is a broader issue here. I > experence that some debian developers do not even understand the point > of making the package automatically configurable at install time using > debconf pre-seeding. >=20 > In Debian Edu, we believe debconf pre-seeding is the only sensible way > to do this in a way that all CDDs can benefit, and the only way that > is expected to avoid most upgrade problems. The alternative is to > replace or edit other packages files, and this is error prone and hard > to do within the current policy. Debian-Nonprofit is currently benefiting from the legwork that Debian-Edu has done in adding the ability to customize packages in a number of important ways through the addition of low-priority Debconf questions. Outside of package specific examples, the ability to work toward custom configurations from fully within the Debian framework is IMHO *the* single largest problem faced by CDDs and the addition of low-priority questions is (again, IMHO) by far the best and most elegant solution to this problem. Basically, I sympathizes with Petter in his frustration and agree with Enrico in his evaluation of the problem and proposed plan of action: the CDD folks among us need to finish writing up some good documentation explaining the CDD philosophy and then we need to get the word out on d-d-a and, eventually, into places like the developer reference and policy (as Thomas suggested). On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 02:28:26PM +0100, Thomas Viehmann wrote: > AFAICT debconf is intended and presently advocated as a way to > prompt for defaults if they are absolutely needed. Specifically, it > is not intended as a way to store stuff. It seems clear to me that this is why we have different priorities. While Petter's example code for the creating debconf questions that are checked for defaults but never asked is a good idea, I don't really understand why we don't have the *lowest* priority Debconf question be pretty much the "you get what you asked for" priority level. People that *really* want to be bothered by every possible debconf configuration should be to have that option I suppose. People that don't (which it goes without saying should be the default configuration) should not (and currently do not) have to. Regards, Mako --=20 Benjamin Mako Hill mako@debian.org http://mako.yukidoke.org/ --fdj2RfSjLxBAspz7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAQasMic1LIWB1WeYRAkSdAJ4v8R4wRzOEMBoMeN0y7bEL+tRlIQCg0D6X e5Kd1PpHZPEMTvUsf5GbIto= =+wHV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fdj2RfSjLxBAspz7-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 29 06:13:40 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AxPpE-0005Hi-00; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 06:13:40 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 2D987EE35; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 06:13:40 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from praksys.org (praksys.org [213.41.146.217]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381B9EDF8 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 06:13:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from foobaar.abadcafe.net (foobaar.abadcafe.net [192.168.17.99]) by praksys.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC066E913; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:13:25 +0100 (CET) From: guillaume pernot Reply-To: gpernot@praksys.org Organization: praksys To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:13:24 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 Cc: "Benj. Mako Hill" References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> In-Reply-To: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200402291313.24475.gpernot@praksys.org> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <8uMMr.A.IuE.zddQAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164035 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 06:13:40 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1693 Lines: 41 yep, Le dimanche 29 F=E9vrier 2004 10:04, Benj. Mako Hill a =E9crit : > On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 10:04:01AM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > > In Debian Edu, we believe debconf pre-seeding is the only sensible way > > to do this in a way that all CDDs can benefit, and the only way that > > is expected to avoid most upgrade problems. The alternative is to > > replace or edit other packages files, and this is error prone and hard > > to do within the current policy. > > Debian-Nonprofit is currently benefiting from the legwork that > Debian-Edu has done in adding the ability to customize packages in a > number of important ways through the addition of low-priority Debconf > questions. Outside of package specific examples, the ability to work > toward custom configurations from fully within the Debian framework is > IMHO *the* single largest problem faced by CDDs and the addition of > low-priority questions is (again, IMHO) by far the best and most > elegant solution to this problem. i agree with the fact that custom configurations is the largest problem fac= ed=20 by CDDs, and that debconf pre-seeding is a clever answer. but, changing question priority is as hard as changing package files, as=20 priorities are defined in debian/{config,{post,pre}inst} in package source,= =20 isn't it ? whether the user should be asked for questions or not is a frontend matter = :=20 the "Noninteractive" frontend does the trick whithout bothering patching=20 upstream packages. moreover, the frontend approach keeps question priorities : we don't have t= o=20 ask for every package maintainer to get rid of the, somewhat usefull,=20 priority hierarchy. regards, guillaume pernot From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Feb 29 08:10:48 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AxRea-0001Lc-00; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 08:10:48 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id CE74FEF01; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 08:10:48 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Ulm.bund.de (ulm.bund.de [194.95.179.208]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55502EEEF for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 08:10:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Ulm.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id PAA02208 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:10:20 +0100 Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:09:48 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers In-Reply-To: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> Message-Id: References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Feb 2004 14:09:51.0469 (UTC) FILETIME=[B299F1D0:01C3FECD] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164037 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 08:10:48 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 530 Lines: 17 On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: > Basically, I sympathizes with Petter in his frustration and agree with > Enrico in his evaluation of the problem and proposed plan of action: > the CDD folks among us need to finish writing up some good Please watch http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/paper-cdd closely for daily updates and wish me spare time to finish this work. I's be happy about orthographic corretcions and corrections and enhancements in terms of contents ... Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Mar 1 05:56:10 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1Axm1q-0002G7-00; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 05:56:10 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 620E7EE61; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:56:10 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.123]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6912FEBEF for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:55:47 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i21BtkG08150 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:55:46 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a3.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a3.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Mon Mar 1 12:55:45 2004 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:55:32 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de To: "Benj. Mako Hill" Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers In-Reply-To: <20040301110244.GB13625@yukidoke.org> Message-Id: References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <20040301110244.GB13625@yukidoke.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2004 11:55:34.0880 (UTC) FILETIME=[1AE9C600:01C3FF84] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164108 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:56:10 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 300 Lines: 12 On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: > On Sun, Feb 29, 2004 at 03:09:48PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: > > http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/paper-cdd http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper-cdd/ Sorry - I should check next time ... Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 3 13:11:21 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1Aybm0-00047B-00; Wed, 03 Mar 2004 13:11:16 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id C307BEDBE; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:11:15 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.albizi15.biz (host24-203.pool8175.interbusiness.it [81.75.203.24]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9630CEC2D for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:11:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from free (host127-129.pool80180.interbusiness.it [80.180.129.127]) by mail.albizi15.biz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510EF22F46; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 20:05:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by free with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AybkL-0000Zk-00; Wed, 03 Mar 2004 20:09:33 +0100 To: Andreas Tille Cc: "Benj. Mako Hill" , Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <20040301110244.GB13625@yukidoke.org> From: Free Ekanayaka Organization: AGNULA MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 20:09:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Andreas Tille's message of "Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:55:32 +0100 (CET)") Message-ID: <87znaxvjbn.fsf@agnula.org> User-Agent: T-gnus/6.15.7 (based on Oort Gnus v0.08) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.6 (Marutamachi) APEL/10.6 MULE XEmacs/21.4 (patch 15) (Security Through Obscurity) (i386-debian-linux) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=4.0 tests=ADDR_FREE,LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164286 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:11:15 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1412 Lines: 38 >>>>> "Andreas" == Andreas Tille writes: Andreas> On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: >> On Sun, Feb 29, 2004 at 03:09:48PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: >> > http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/paper-cdd Andreas> Andreas> http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper-cdd/ Andreas> Sorry - I should check next time ... Hi, as I'm involved in the AGNULA/DeMuDi project [0], I find this thread *really* interesting. DeMuDi is hopefully going to merge with Debian Multimedia, and the Debian Edu/Skolelinux experience is a very valuable example to look at. I'm now following the discussion on CDD very closely, and I think that the issue of having specialized Debian based "distros" which do not fork is becoming very important for the success of Debian. Andrea, I've read the "draft" documentation you wrote, and I think it's a really good starting point, please keep on it! Discussing together about the details of such document is of course a good way to refine it. As far as DeMuDi is concerned we were ending up independently to the same debconf pre-seeding approach you are discussing here, and I was really glad to come to know that the issue was not regarding only us. For our porpoises such strategy combined with tools like dpsyco or cfenging would be ideal. bye, free [0] http://www.agnula.org From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 3 17:47:02 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1Ayg4s-0002NA-00; Wed, 03 Mar 2004 17:47:02 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id C18A7EC1A; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:47:01 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.albizi15.biz (host24-203.pool8175.interbusiness.it [81.75.203.24]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF8BEA01 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:46:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from free (host127-129.pool80180.interbusiness.it [80.180.129.127]) by mail.albizi15.biz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E05222F46 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 00:40:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by free with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Ayg36-0001Wd-00 for ; Thu, 04 Mar 2004 00:45:12 +0100 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> From: Free Ekanayaka Organization: AGNULA MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 00:45:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Andreas Tille's message of "Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:09:48 +0100 (CET)") Message-ID: <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> User-Agent: T-gnus/6.15.7 (based on Oort Gnus v0.08) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.6 (Marutamachi) APEL/10.6 MULE XEmacs/21.4 (patch 15) (Security Through Obscurity) (i386-debian-linux) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=4.0 tests=ADDR_FREE,LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164311 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:47:01 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2812 Lines: 63 >>>>> "Andreas" == Andreas Tille writes: Andreas> On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: >> Basically, I sympathizes with Petter in his frustration and >> agree with Enrico in his evaluation of the problem and proposed >> plan of action: the CDD folks among us need to finish writing >> up some good Andreas> Please watch Andreas> http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/paper-cdd Andreas> closely for daily updates and wish me spare time to Andreas> finish this work. I's be happy about orthographic Andreas> corretcions and corrections and enhancements in terms of Andreas> contents ... Andreas, I've read again your paper and I've just noticed that your are referencing #186085 (maybe the first time I was too tired, or it's newly added). Quoting Joe Hess: > I have been holding off on doing anything on this bug because I am > not sure how tasksel should relate to debian sub distributions. We > added debian jr a while back, but it has a wider possible user base > than many sub distributions, and it makes sense you may want it on a > machine that is also used for other tasks. It was also the first sub > distro, and so a special case at the time, not something I can > generalize into a general policy for tasksel. [...] > There is also the concern that what's in tasksel's tasks can impact > what goes onto the first CD, although it doesn't have to, and I > don't always keep this at the top of my mind when adding new stuff > to tasksel tasks. Debian-Med encompasses 90+ mb of debs, so I have > to consider this. Is it critical for Debian that all the packages belonging to a task fit on this first CD? After all having to change a CD-ROM during the installation should not that big deal for a user, but I may be missing something.. Considering now that DVD readers and burners are becoming cheaper and more popular, this issue might be partly solved in the near future. On http://www.debian-cd.com/ they already produce woody/sarge DVDs. > Might it not be better if for subdistributions we generated customized > install cds for those distribututions? These could have everything > needed for that specific purpose on the one cd, and would automatically > install it. These CDs could be blessed by the debian project and created > with the debian-cd package like our regular cds. Would a general, CDD independent, framework for automatically creating such ISO/DVD images make sense? For example there might be scripts on a server which take care of creating and updating such images according to the dependences of the task packages of a given CDD, or to some sort of rules defined inside in one of its task packages (e.g. debian-med-cd). Free From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Mar 4 01:46:46 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1AynZ8-0001mY-00; Thu, 04 Mar 2004 01:46:46 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id D9A40EF28; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:46:45 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.101]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D92BEFBA for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:46:29 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i247kSI29040 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:46:28 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Thu Mar 4 08:46:28 2004 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:45:56 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers In-Reply-To: <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> Message-Id: References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2004 07:45:57.0795 (UTC) FILETIME=[BB1D3730:01C401BC] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164321 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:46:45 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2596 Lines: 56 On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Free Ekanayaka wrote: > Andreas, I've read again your paper and I've just noticed that your > are referencing #186085 (maybe the first time I was too tired, or it's > newly added). I'm continousely workiing on this paper and you might expect daily (perhaps hourly) changes on it. The official announcement will be done when I finished the draft and than it will be moved to a CVS repository on Alioth. > Is it critical for Debian that all the packages belonging to a task > fit on this first CD? After all having to change a CD-ROM during the > installation should not that big deal for a user, but I may be missing > something.. Don't ask me. I have a different opinion but there was no support from other developers. Feel free to post your opinion to the BTS. > Considering now that DVD readers and burners are becoming cheaper and > more popular, this issue might be partly solved in the near future. On > http://www.debian-cd.com/ they already produce woody/sarge DVDs. On the other hand I think that CDs are the most popular medium we should care for and thus we should keeping a working CD solution in mind. > Would a general, CDD independent, framework for automatically creating > such ISO/DVD images make sense? For example there might be scripts on > a server which take care of creating and updating such images > according to the dependences of the task packages of a given CDD, or > to some sort of rules defined inside in one of its task packages > (e.g. debian-med-cd). Yes this would definitely make sense and the problem can be split into two flavours: 1) A single CDD install CD for each CDD would be a nice thing to have. I think the debian-edu project (=Skolelinux) is much in an advance here. => We need tools to build such a CDD install CD 2) We need a (Knoppix derived) Live CD for demonstration purposes for each CDD (see various threads on debian-devel and debian-knoppix project on Alioth. => We need tools to build an easily customizable Knoppix CD which can be builded from scratch by using Debian-Mirror and Debian tools exclusively. I consider 1) and 2) as different tasks because I doubt that you can get a clean installation if you use the install feature from Knoppix. Moreover a more or less unattended installation process (as Skolelinux is doing it currently) is a vital feature and I doubt that we are able to combine this with the Knoppix approach. This will be mentioned in a future part of my draft of the paper. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Mar 8 04:01:14 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0HZS-0005sy-00; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 04:01:14 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id DAC54EAE5; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:01:13 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from alvin.disid.com (224.Red-80-59-203.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.203.224]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712F9E899 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 03:44:07 -0600 (CST) Received: by alvin.disid.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A01AF2F592; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:44:05 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:44:05 +0100 From: Sergio Talens-Oliag To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040308094405.GA12510@uv.es> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5mCyUwZo2JvN/JJP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164526 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:01:13 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 4774 Lines: 107 --5mCyUwZo2JvN/JJP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:45:56AM +0100, Andreas Tille escribi=F3: > On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Free Ekanayaka wrote: > > Considering now that DVD readers and burners are becoming cheaper and > > more popular, this issue might be partly solved in the near future. On > > http://www.debian-cd.com/ they already produce woody/sarge DVDs. > On the other hand I think that CDs are the most popular medium we should > care for and thus we should keeping a working CD solution in mind. Agreed, and for our purposes a DVD is only a bigger CD, the problems are the same, IMHO. =20 > > Would a general, CDD independent, framework for automatically creating > > such ISO/DVD images make sense? For example there might be scripts on > > a server which take care of creating and updating such images > > according to the dependences of the task packages of a given CDD, or > > to some sort of rules defined inside in one of its task packages > > (e.g. debian-med-cd). > Yes this would definitely make sense and the problem can be split into > two flavours: > 1) A single CDD install CD for each CDD would be a nice thing to have. > I think the debian-edu project (=3DSkolelinux) is much in an advance > here. >=20 > =3D> We need tools to build such a CDD install CD Maybe the independent framework for building the install CDs makes sense, but I think we should investigate the posibility of building an official CD generator for Debian that includes support for this, seeing the full Debian Distribution as the CDD that includes everything. Probably we can start by looking at debian-cd and looking at the changes it needs to be able to build CDD installers. =20 > 2) We need a (Knoppix derived) Live CD for demonstration purposes > for each CDD (see various threads on debian-devel and debian-knoppix > project on Alioth. >=20 > =3D> We need tools to build an easily customizable Knoppix CD which > can be builded from scratch by using Debian-Mirror and Debian too= ls > exclusively. I also agree here, but I think we can try to design a new system (and tools) to generate Debian LiveCDs instead of using Knoppix. =20 As I see it, this system has to be based on current debian tools when possible (i.e., using the debian-installer hardware detection subsystem) and support the generation of LiveCDs (maybe with an installation option, but for me this is more like a cloning option) and Debian Installers (using the current system, with different frontends). =20 If this last functionality is well implemented it can be used to generate the official CD installer, allowing the creation of X based installers simply by generating a small live system that includes X support and graphical frontends for debian-installer. Of course this doesn't excludes the console based installers, it only modifies the way the installer's root filesystem is built. > I consider 1) and 2) as different tasks because I doubt that you can get > a clean installation if you use the install feature from Knoppix. Moreov= er > a more or less unattended installation process (as Skolelinux is doing it > currently) is a vital feature and I doubt that we are able to combine this > with the Knoppix approach. For me, the Knoppix way of installation can be included as an option on the Debian LiveCDs, we only need to use the debian-installer partition system and once the disks are formated dump the LiveCD image and install a boot loader using the debian-installer tools. =20 If we do it the right way, our image generator should not put anything in the root filesystem that is not in the debian packages, all the customizations used on the LiveCD should be done only modifying /etc files and can be distributed on a different place (as a simple option we could use a tar file that is uncompressed in RAM once the system is booted). Actually I don't have too much time to work on this issues, but as soon as I can I plan to write something and send it to Andreas for his paper and to this list for discussion. --=20 Sergio Talens-Oliag Key fingerprint =3D 29DF 544F 1BD9 548C 8F15 86EF 6770 052B B8C1 FA69 --5mCyUwZo2JvN/JJP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFATEBlZ3AFK7jB+mkRAvNwAKCSuFdTERGukBucaqrX6yT4+3eFOACfSL/B mpWFw1gHiesau7DhhLqj550= =j43N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5mCyUwZo2JvN/JJP-- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Mar 8 04:33:19 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0I4V-0001PE-00; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 04:33:19 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 21D1FE8FE; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:33:19 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mx2.unilogicnetworks.net (mx2.unilogicnetworks.net [62.133.192.12]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B145BE9A0 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:16:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from router (unilogic.cust.unilogicnetworks.net [62.133.193.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx2.unilogicnetworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189FCEF136 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:16:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by router (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0636E7B6 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:16:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.0.11.93] (unknown [10.0.11.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by router (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101EB6E7B2 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:16:25 +0100 (CET) From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:15:20 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <20040308094405.GA12510@uv.es> In-Reply-To: <20040308094405.GA12510@uv.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200403081115.20786.cobaco@linux.be> X-Virus-Scanned: by UNILOGIC BV (targa) - AMaViS snapshot-20020222 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164527 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:33:19 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1243 Lines: 34 =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2004-03-08 10:44, Sergio Talens-Oliag wrote: > El Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:45:56AM +0100, Andreas Tille escribi=F3: > Maybe the independent framework for building the install CDs makes > sense, but I think we should investigate the posibility of building an > official CD generator for Debian that includes support for this, > seeing the full Debian Distribution as the CDD that includes > everything. > > Probably we can start by looking at debian-cd and looking at the > changes it needs to be able to build CDD installers. Skolelinux currently the procedure outlined at=20 http://www.skolelinux.org/info/cdbygging/index.html basically we just use the standard Debian-cd building process, but reorder= =20 the packages so that all the packages we need are on the first CD =2D --=20 Cheers, cobaco =20 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFATEe45ihPJ4ZiSrsRAtpyAJ9HzUEBxBznIVTofjZLbdNsAVflPACeJMgh K4HYN3+gcwyCy+wweboOJMY=3D =3DMfVu =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Mar 8 05:06:22 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0IaU-0006Ox-00; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 05:06:22 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 0F04CE8FF; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 05:06:21 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from grunt22.ihug.com.au (grunt22.ihug.com.au [203.109.249.142]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1F4E88F for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:50:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from p243-tnt5.syd.ihug.com.au (zen8100a.freedbms.net) [203.173.136.243] by grunt22.ihug.com.au with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1B0ILX-0000H0-00; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:50:55 +1100 Received: by zen8100a.freedbms.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 93CBA41F64; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:43:54 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers From: Zenaan Harkness To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: <20040308094405.GA12510@uv.es> References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> <20040308094405.GA12510@uv.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1078742634.1044.653.camel@zen8100a.freedbms.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:43:54 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164529 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 05:06:21 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1603 Lines: 48 On Mon, 2004-03-08 at 20:44, Sergio Talens-Oliag wrote: > El Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:45:56AM +0100, Andreas Tille escribi=F3: > > > Would a general, CDD independent, framework for automatically creatin= g > > > such ISO/DVD images make sense? For example there might be scripts o= n > > > a server which take care of creating and updating such image= s > > > according to the dependences of the task packages of a given CDD, o= r > > > to some sort of rules defined inside in one of its task package= s > > > (e.g. debian-med-cd). > > Yes this would definitely make sense and the problem can be split into > > two flavours: > > 1) A single CDD install CD for each CDD would be a nice thing to have= . > > I think the debian-edu project (=3DSkolelinux) is much in an advan= ce > > here. > >=20 > > =3D> We need tools to build such a CDD install CD >=20 > Maybe the independent framework for building the install CDs makes > sense, but I think we should investigate the posibility of building an > official CD generator for Debian that includes support for this, > seeing the full Debian Distribution as the CDD that includes everything= . >=20 > Probably we can start by looking at debian-cd and looking at the > changes it needs to be able to build CDD installers. Don't forget these (as possibly useful resources/ other developers) (just dumped from my rescue-cd-tools file sorry, please ignore non-applicables): www.gnoppix.org debix - http://debix.alioth.debian.org/ yard debuild pbuilder make-kpkg/ kernel-package grub busybox bootcd cdbs debian-cd From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Mar 9 03:00:02 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0d5m-00029m-00; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 03:00:02 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id ACFB4EECA; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 03:00:01 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Augsburg.bund.de (augsburg.bund.de [194.95.179.209]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C808ED00 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 02:59:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Augsburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id JAA25019 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:59:38 +0100 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:59:25 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers In-Reply-To: <20040308094405.GA12510@uv.es> Message-Id: References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> <20040308094405.GA12510@uv.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2004 08:59:26.0604 (UTC) FILETIME=[D308D4C0:01C405B4] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164610 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 03:00:01 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1593 Lines: 36 On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Sergio Talens-Oliag wrote: > Probably we can start by looking at debian-cd and looking at the > changes it needs to be able to build CDD installers. Fully ACK. > I also agree here, but I think we can try to design a new system (and > tools) to generate Debian LiveCDs instead of using Knoppix. I do not care whether Knoppix stuff is involved here or not. The result has to be a Live CD which works at least as good as Knoppix. I just described it as Knoppix because Knoppix is kind of "mother of all Debian baesd live CDs". > For me, the Knoppix way of installation can be included as an option > on the Debian LiveCDs, we only need to use the debian-installer > partition system and once the disks are formated dump the LiveCD > image and install a boot loader using the debian-installer tools. While this might be an option I would really prefer the current install process as the "default" way of installation vor various reasons. But I know that many users tend to install Live CD contents to hard disks and we are obliged to care for the needs of our users. > Actually I don't have too much time to work on this issues, but as > soon as I can I plan to write something and send it to Andreas for his > paper and to this list for discussion. This would be great. If Alioth would be up and running I would include the Metadistros people into CC. Moreover I think we should merge Metadistros and debian-knoppix which seem to have nearly the same goal and have done nearly the same amount of work yet. ;-) Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Mar 9 03:53:00 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0dv2-0001Rp-00; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 03:53:00 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 2CDC2F0F9; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 03:53:00 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from micha.hampshire.edu (micha.hampshire.edu [192.101.188.235]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99EB1EEB1 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 03:52:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha ([127.0.0.1] helo=kamna ident=mako) by micha.hampshire.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1B0duU-0001TB-00 for ; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 04:52:27 -0500 Received: from mako by kamna with local (Exim 4.30) id 1B0dC3-00019d-Rr for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 01:06:31 -0800 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:06:31 +0100 From: "Benj. Mako Hill" To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040309090631.GG2078@yukidoke.org> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Cgrdyab2wu3Akvjd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: "Benj. Mako Hill" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <0K2WK.A.fpD.7PZTAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164615 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 03:53:00 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2121 Lines: 62 --Cgrdyab2wu3Akvjd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:45:56AM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: > 2) We need a (Knoppix derived) Live CD for demonstration purposes > for each CDD (see various threads on debian-devel and debian-knoppix > project on Alioth. I think that the nature of what subprojects produce should ultimately be up to that project. Many CDDs will want to create live CDs. Some might not. That said, if what a large number of subprojects wants to do is similar (e.g., creating custom distros using package selection and custom package configuration) and we go about it in similar ways (e.g., a consistent form of package lists and low-priority debconf pacakges in the official debian packages adding the configuration customization we need) we can pretty easy describe or set up a common infrastructure to go from here to either d-i installable CDs or to bootable CDs using Morphix, Knoppix, debix, or whatever. What we need to do now is focus on the documenting those practices that have been successful and adapting them for wide application. > =3D> We need tools to build an easily customizable Knoppix CD which > can be builded from scratch by using Debian-Mirror and Debian tools > exclusively. I'm not sure I agree although I would not be opposed to having these around. I am, of course, hugely in support of getting the tools necessary to build Morphix/Knoppix/debix fully within Debian to help pave the way for people that want to work toward goals like this. I think we should focus on documenting these processes that we have already first. Regards, Mako --=20 Benjamin Mako Hill mako@debian.org http://mako.yukidoke.org/ --Cgrdyab2wu3Akvjd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFATYkXic1LIWB1WeYRAqX+AKD6tMYvZeNYeSepkIJzZxxbRbRz/QCfUJal g9uPUKHUh6MbCmu1FEkrvSs= =RDQj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Cgrdyab2wu3Akvjd-- From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Mar 9 03:53:01 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0dv2-0001S0-00; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 03:53:00 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 1482FF0F2; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 03:52:59 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from micha.hampshire.edu (micha.hampshire.edu [192.101.188.235]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208ECF0BC for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 03:52:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha ([127.0.0.1] helo=kamna ident=mako) by micha.hampshire.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1B0duO-0001T5-00 for ; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 04:52:20 -0500 Received: from mako by kamna with local (Exim 4.30) id 1B0V2v-0000yv-NQ for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 16:24:33 -0800 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 01:24:33 +0100 From: "Benj. Mako Hill" To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040309002433.GF2078@yukidoke.org> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CXFpZVxO6m2Ol4tQ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: "Benj. Mako Hill" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=4.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_06_12 autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164614 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 03:52:59 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2140 Lines: 63 --CXFpZVxO6m2Ol4tQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 12:45:12AM +0100, Free Ekanayaka wrote: > Andreas, I've read again your paper and I've just noticed that your > are referencing #186085 (maybe the first time I was too tired, or it's > newly added). I don't really think this is particularly important. The way I see it, CDDs have two major problems: custom package selection and custom package configuration. This thread has already talked about custom package configuration in regards to pre-seeding low priority (or even unasked) debconf questions. IMHO, custom package selection (the problem that #186085 seems to be addressing) is an easier and less pressing problem. Basically, if we're going to pre-seed debconf databases, we're going to be using a (slightly) tweaked installer. If we're going be tweaking the installer, as part of a full CD or not, we might as well feed the custom package the package selection! Clicking on that item in tasksel is not only not going to be what I think is the major way people will install CDDs (or at least Debian-NP). More importantly it will not let get us any closer to do the custom configuration issues that are really the bulk of the work we're doing unless we rethink taskel. > Would a general, CDD independent, framework for automatically > creating such ISO/DVD images make sense? Sure. I think it's a nice idea. Of course, automatically creating the CDs is going to have to come after we have a fully documented non-automatic framework that is some-what consistently adopted. :) We are still a good deal away from this. :) Regards, Mako --=20 Benjamin Mako Hill mako@debian.org http://mako.yukidoke.org/ --CXFpZVxO6m2Ol4tQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFATQ7Bic1LIWB1WeYRAog5AKClVfLKtsK4HiuCoLjlYKLPsi5ssACg1CHx Ucex8/Z4zpHf+Jg5oeno9tM= =6HWu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --CXFpZVxO6m2Ol4tQ-- From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Mar 9 04:28:49 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0eTg-0007U4-00; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 04:28:48 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 15B26F09C; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 04:28:47 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Ulm.bund.de (ulm.bund.de [194.95.179.208]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BC98F0B4 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 04:28:34 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Ulm.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id LAA31512 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:28:31 +0100 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:20:44 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers In-Reply-To: <20040309090631.GG2078@yukidoke.org> Message-Id: References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> <20040309090631.GG2078@yukidoke.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2004 10:20:44.0963 (UTC) FILETIME=[2EC35730:01C405C0] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <5_wcxD.A.xiC.fxZTAB@murphy> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164619 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 04:28:47 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 312 Lines: 11 On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: > What we need to do now is focus on the documenting those practices > that have been successful and adapting them for wide application. You know I'm in the process of douing this ... I think you have to give me about 10 further days. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Mar 9 04:31:30 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0eWI-0007nQ-00; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 04:31:30 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id E4397EA4A; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 04:31:29 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.101]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894BCF0C4 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 04:31:15 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i29AVEB20177 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:31:14 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Tue Mar 9 11:31:14 2004 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:31:01 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de To: 160229@bugs.debian.org Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers In-Reply-To: <20040309002433.GF2078@yukidoke.org> Message-Id: References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> <20040309002433.GF2078@yukidoke.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2004 10:31:02.0084 (UTC) FILETIME=[9E988840:01C405C1] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164620 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 04:31:29 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2601 Lines: 51 On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: > The way I see it, CDDs have two major problems: custom package > selection and custom package configuration. This thread has already > talked about custom package configuration in regards to pre-seeding low > priority (or even unasked) debconf questions. IMHO, custom package > selection (the problem that #186085 seems to be addressing) is an > easier and less pressing problem. You are right that it is not a *technical* problem. IMHO it is more a kind of *advertising* problem. Everytime when I'm sitting on Exhibition boothes I'm asked: "When will Debian-med be released." My answer was, some meta packages are just contained in Debian Woody but in Sarge you will find it on the very first task selection screen as it is the case for Debian-Junior. We pronounced that Debian-Junior was *released* with Woody. So how would you measure a *release* inside Debian. We want to focus our releases to *users*. So why should we hide thoses things from users. Or even worse if users see Debian-Junior in the tasksel list the think: "Well, there is one Custom Debian Distribution listed here and if there are no others listed no others are available." There is no rationale to hide things which are important for our users. May be tasksel is not the right interface here - OK. But we *need* an interface at the very beginning of the installation process to show our users *all* options they have. > Basically, if we're going to pre-seed debconf databases, we're going to > be using a (slightly) tweaked installer. If we're going be tweaking > the installer, as part of a full CD or not, we might as well feed the > custom package the package selection! This can be done on a special CDD CD. But if we release a Debian stable all options for a user should be presented in a apropriate way. As long as we distribute Debian in the way we did in the past we have to find a solution here. > Clicking on that item in tasksel is not only not going to be what I > think is the major way people will install CDDs (or at least > Debian-NP). More importantly it will not let get us any closer to do > the custom configuration issues that are really the bulk of the work > we're doing unless we rethink taskel. Well, rethink tasksel is a valid option. > Sure. I think it's a nice idea. Of course, automatically creating the > CDs is going to have to come after we have a fully documented > non-automatic framework that is some-what consistently adopted. :) We > are still a good deal away from this. :) Unfortunately yes. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Mar 9 05:09:33 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0f77-00059b-00; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 05:09:33 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 507D5F2AF; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:09:29 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 396CDF252 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:09:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from siisu.kleppe.newton (157.80-202-168.nextgentel.com [80.202.168.157]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7998D8342 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 12:09:13 +0100 (MET) Received: by siisu.kleppe.newton (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3C108240C5; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 12:09:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 12:09:13 +0100 From: Conrad Newton To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040309110913.GB13117@siisu.kleppe.newton> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> <20040309002433.GF2078@yukidoke.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040309002433.GF2078@yukidoke.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164621 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:09:29 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1639 Lines: 36 >From Benj. Mako Hill on Tuesday, 2004-03-09 at 01:24:33 +0100: > On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 12:45:12AM +0100, Free Ekanayaka wrote: > > Andreas, I've read again your paper and I've just noticed that your > > are referencing #186085 (maybe the first time I was too tired, or it's > > newly added). > > I don't really think this is particularly important. > > The way I see it, CDDs have two major problems: custom package > selection and custom package configuration. This thread has already > talked about custom package configuration in regards to pre-seeding low > priority (or even unasked) debconf questions. IMHO, custom package > selection (the problem that #186085 seems to be addressing) is an > easier and less pressing problem. Hear! Hear! The question of custom package configuration is one of the big problems, and not discussed often enough, in my opinion. Let us assume that all of Klaus Knopper's packages had been put into Debian already---you would _still_ not be able to install his system to create your own Knoppix using the Debian installer, because you would not have his configuration. If we generalize this question slightly, I would like to ask why it should not be possible for me to get an exact copy of your system through the apt-get mechanism. Of course you can send me your package list, and I can install all the packages, but I think we all agree that my system will differ from yours significantly---despite the identity of packages---because of differences in configuration. What needs to be done to enable me to make an identical copy, modulo differences in hardware, via apt-get? Conrad From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Mar 9 05:42:21 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0fcr-0000lU-00; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 05:42:21 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id C8B66F1EA; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:42:17 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from alvin.disid.com (224.Red-80-59-203.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.203.224]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F0EF0BF for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:24:06 -0600 (CST) Received: by alvin.disid.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9A92A2F7F7; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 12:24:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 12:24:04 +0100 From: Sergio Talens-Oliag To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040309112404.GA15412@uv.es> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> <20040308094405.GA12510@uv.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164622 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:42:17 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2145 Lines: 54 --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:59:25AM +0100, Andreas Tille escribi=F3: > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Sergio Talens-Oliag wrote: > > For me, the Knoppix way of installation can be included as an option > > on the Debian LiveCDs, we only need to use the debian-installer > > partition system and once the disks are formated dump the LiveCD > > image and install a boot loader using the debian-installer tools. > While this might be an option I would really prefer the current install > process as the "default" way of installation vor various reasons. But > I know that many users tend to install Live CD contents to hard disks > and we are obliged to care for the needs of our users. Yes, we agree here; for me this has to be an option but not the "default" one. > > Actually I don't have too much time to work on this issues, but as > > soon as I can I plan to write something and send it to Andreas for his > > paper and to this list for discussion. > This would be great. >=20 > If Alioth would be up and running I would include the Metadistros people > into CC. Moreover I think we should merge Metadistros and debian-knoppix > which seem to have nearly the same goal and have done nearly the same > amount of work yet. ;-) Well, I think the goal of both projects is the same, but the aproach is quite different; anyway I'm sure that Metadistros people would be interested in the LiveCD discussion, I'll write to the metadistros list to let them know about this thread. =20 --=20 Sergio Talens-Oliag Key fingerprint =3D 29DF 544F 1BD9 548C 8F15 86EF 6770 052B B8C1 FA69 --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFATalUZ3AFK7jB+mkRAoK1AJ4vNzzllapYIFbh5N872+fsDbCsLACg2NvG EX2bCIMqiTP0zZurjYbTXuw= =NEdB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z-- From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Mar 9 06:51:46 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0gi1-0003Jc-00; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 06:51:45 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 8508BF2F4; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 06:51:45 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from alvin.disid.com (224.Red-80-59-203.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.203.224]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD1D6E92D for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 06:35:08 -0600 (CST) Received: by alvin.disid.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 823F82F7F7; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:35:06 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:35:06 +0100 From: Sergio Talens-Oliag To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040309123506.GB15412@uv.es> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> <20040309002433.GF2078@yukidoke.org> <20040309110913.GB13117@siisu.kleppe.newton> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DKU6Jbt7q3WqK7+M" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040309110913.GB13117@siisu.kleppe.newton> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164627 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 06:51:45 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 4748 Lines: 105 --DKU6Jbt7q3WqK7+M Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 12:09:13PM +0100, Conrad Newton escribi=F3: > From Benj. Mako Hill on Tuesday, 2004-03-09 at 01:24:33 +0100: > > On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 12:45:12AM +0100, Free Ekanayaka wrote: > > > Andreas, I've read again your paper and I've just noticed that your > > > are referencing #186085 (maybe the first time I was too tired, or it's > > > newly added). > >=20 > > I don't really think this is particularly important. > >=20 > > The way I see it, CDDs have two major problems: custom package > > selection and custom package configuration. This thread has already > > talked about custom package configuration in regards to pre-seeding low > > priority (or even unasked) debconf questions. IMHO, custom package > > selection (the problem that #186085 seems to be addressing) is an > > easier and less pressing problem. >=20 > Hear! Hear! The question of custom package configuration is one > of the big problems, and not discussed often enough, in my opinion. >=20 > Let us assume that all of Klaus Knopper's packages had been put > into Debian already---you would _still_ not be able to install > his system to create your own Knoppix using the Debian installer,=20 > because you would not have his configuration. Right, for this you need the equivalent of a tarball of his '/etc/' files, but the problem with the tarball is that it is not upgradable (we can't assure the configuration files would be right for future versions of the packages) and is directly related to the full set of packages installed (if you want a different set of packages you will have configuration files for uninstalled packages). > If we generalize this question slightly, I would like to ask > why it should not be possible for me to get an exact copy of > your system through the apt-get mechanism. Of course you can > send me your package list, and I can install all the packages, > but I think we all agree that my system will differ from yours=20 > significantly---despite the identity of packages---because of=20 > differences in configuration. > > What needs to be done to enable me to make an identical copy, > modulo differences in hardware, via apt-get? Well, in the first place I must say that what you want is a way to 'clone' a system, and that is usually done using other tools different than apt-get. Anyway, if you want to be able to do it using apt-get we need to develop a system that can extract the relevant information of an installed Debian system and packages this information. To do this we need: =20 - A way to get the debconf answers from your system (already available) *and* verify that those answers can be used to generate the same configuration files from the installed package. If that is possible, this part of the configuration data should be 'upgradable'. =20 - For config files not generated by debconf we have to verify if the files have been modified. If the answer is yes, we have to identify to which package(s) each file belongs to (with its version number) and build a set of configuration packages that can be installed after the corresponding packages are installed. The problem with this is that once the package is upgraded we can't assure that the config file is valid (we could try to include this information on new packages, letting them declare that it accepts previous configuration files, but I see a lot of problems with this ...). - A way to identify user generated configuration files; once they are identified we will treat them as we do with hand modified configuration files. =20 I don't think this makes sense, and in fact I belive that the aproach taken by current CDDs like debian-edu is just the opposite; instead of extracting the configuration from an installed system the answers to debconf questions are generated by hand and for config files that can't be configured this way they use handmade cfengine scripts. =20 What I don't know is how good is cfengine for upgrades, mainly because I've never used it ... ;( --=20 Sergio Talens-Oliag Key fingerprint =3D 29DF 544F 1BD9 548C 8F15 86EF 6770 052B B8C1 FA69 --DKU6Jbt7q3WqK7+M Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFATbn6Z3AFK7jB+mkRAhoaAJ9PXiTu7eM+8tR09znUmSMdXdUYGgCfQlBI OLDVw0lontzn586yFAtCe+M= =1g/z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DKU6Jbt7q3WqK7+M-- From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Mar 9 07:20:56 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0hAF-00075r-00; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 07:20:55 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 8BEE7F332; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:20:55 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.102]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC5CEE9B2 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:20:41 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i29DKeg14929 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:20:40 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Tue Mar 9 14:20:40 2004 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:19:43 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de To: Sergio Talens-Oliag Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers In-Reply-To: <20040309123506.GB15412@uv.es> Message-Id: References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> <20040309002433.GF2078@yukidoke.org> <20040309110913.GB13117@siisu.kleppe.newton> <20040309123506.GB15412@uv.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2004 13:19:47.0169 (UTC) FILETIME=[319DE510:01C405D9] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164631 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:20:55 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1061 Lines: 25 On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Sergio Talens-Oliag wrote: > - For config files not generated by debconf we have to verify if the > files have been modified. If the answer is yes, we have to identify > to which package(s) each file belongs to (with its version number) > and build a set of configuration packages that can be installed > after the corresponding packages are installed. The problem with ^^^^^ Hmmm, normally you install a newer version which has to handles upgrades. Thus you should put the manually edited configuration in place *before* and let dpkg do the rest as it does with manually edited config files. IMHO this would increase the probability of a working config. (This does not mean that I'm sure that this is a good way at all - just a remark to the right sequence of doing this ...) > What I don't know is how good is cfengine for upgrades, mainly because > I've never used it ... ;( If you ask me I'd prefer a tested tool like cfengine over the manual approach you described above. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Tue Mar 9 14:34:41 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B0nw1-0002BG-00; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:34:41 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 90171F62D; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:34:39 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4066F611 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:34:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from siisu.kleppe.newton (157.80-202-168.nextgentel.com [80.202.168.157]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C64D18F53 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:34:01 +0100 (MET) Received: by siisu.kleppe.newton (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7EA3C24176; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:34:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:34:01 +0100 From: Conrad Newton To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040309203401.GA19980@siisu.kleppe.newton> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> <20040309002433.GF2078@yukidoke.org> <20040309110913.GB13117@siisu.kleppe.newton> <20040309123506.GB15412@uv.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164664 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:34:39 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1891 Lines: 41 >From Andreas Tille on Tuesday, 2004-03-09 at 14:19:43 +0100: > On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Sergio Talens-Oliag wrote: > > > What I don't know is how good is cfengine for upgrades, mainly because > > I've never used it ... ;( > If you ask me I'd prefer a tested tool like cfengine over the manual > approach you described above. I am not questioning the usefulness of cfengine---and yes, it is used by skolelinux to configure the system. My question is, is this the rational thing to do? Don't packages and configuration go together? The problem with building custom configurations into packages is of course that in the end, you may have 200 different configurations, or 20,000. When you include different configuration possibilities in the packages, where do you draw the line? Still, I believe that packages and configuration are logically connected. Imagine a future where we have many different CDDs. Maybe I want to have a blend of two or more different CDDs. If cfengine is my tool, I now have to tear apart the cfengine configuration file for two different CDDs and glue them back together again. Does this make sense? I do not think so. I want more flexibility! I suppose what I want (without really knowing if this already exists) is "configuration packages" that are intimately connected with "binary packages". The "configuration packages" might well be in places other than the standard Debian archives, because the burden of supporting many many different configurations is probably too much for Debian too handle. But what I gain is flexibility---I can offer my configuration files on relatively weak server, because downloading a few textfiles requires so little bandwidth. The binaries can be downloaded directly from Debian. If a particular set of "configuration packages" proves to be enormously popular, it could be included in standard Debian. Conrad From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 10 06:25:07 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B12ln-0000a4-00; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:25:07 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 2223DF27A; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:25:07 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Augsburg.bund.de (augsburg.bund.de [194.95.179.209]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB893F241 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:24:51 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Augsburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id NAA25567 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:24:45 +0100 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:24:40 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de To: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers (continued) Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Mar 2004 12:24:42.0163 (UTC) FILETIME=[AA17C030:01C4069A] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164687 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:25:07 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 3641 Lines: 87 I guess Mako will not complain if I bring this thead back onto the debian-devel list... In short about the contens of private discussion: IMHO concerns of Custom Debian Distributions should be discussed in a separate list while Make loves to use debian-devel... On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: > On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:08:46PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: > > > > BMH> I'm not sure I agree. At Debconf last year the folks who were > > BMH> presented decided it was a good idea to work with a [custom] tag > > BMH> on devel because (1) our list had been rejected; (2) we didn't > > BMH> think we needed yet another list and (3) there is still a lot of > > BMH> communications that needs to be done between CDDs and the larger > > BMH> Debian community. > > > AT> So why do we have these extra privat mails with several CCs? > > Because you started a thread offlist! It was onlist until you took it > off! Yes - because I was afraid I'm off topic here. So let's people start throwing stones at us. ;-) > AT> I hate this and I expect more mails in CDD-issues which will bloat > AT> debian-devel and on the other hands I expect people to subscribe who > AT> would not like to read debian-devel ... > > That's a good point. This is why I think a mailing list will > ultimately be a good idea. At this point, I still believe it will tend > to distract from the type of larger project-wide educating we need to > do. We're talking about defining processes by which we can make > distributions *fully* within the Debian system. This may very well > affect many, perhaps all, developers. Already many people (AJ for > example) has gotten quite involved in conversations about the nature > of CDDs but doesn't seem to have any interest in any CDD in > particular. > > AT> I hate to explain over and over explaining random people who have no > AT> idea about CDDs in long threads. That's why I startet to write my > AT> article and throw an RTFM on them. > > I think you should consider drafting this on the Wiki or in a series > of wiki pages. So far this has worked very well for letting other > people contribute to the document. Hmmmm, you mean http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?CustomDebian ? I have to admit that I really want to be much more verbose and that I do not really like this Wiki type of approach. I plan to put my article about CDD which is written in debiandoc-sgml http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper-cdd/ into a CVS repositor on Alioth once it is ready and I think this is a more solid resource of information. I was not only once asked whether I could provide printable text of it (and I will for sure once it is ready - there are all targets inside the Makefile). How to do this reasonably with the Wiki (well, once it has real content - currently it fits on about two pages of paper) ... Kind regards Andreas > AT> Right, but sometimes I hesitate to use debian-devel because it might > AT> be off topic. > > As long as people are undoing the work of CDDs as a result of > misunderstanding or ignorance (in the case of NTP), we need to errror > on the side of over-educating people. > > > BMH> and I think it's a very good thing that non-CDD developers were > > BMH> exposed to the vast majority of these issues. > > > AT> To take the chance starting long threads of nonsense? Hmmm, I could > AT> live without that. > > We could all live without nonsense. Actions taken out of ignornace > lead to the same sorts of flamewars. > > Regards, > Mako > > -- > Benjamin Mako Hill > mako@debian.org > http://mako.yukidoke.org/ > From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 10 06:54:11 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B13Dv-0004g2-00; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:54:11 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id AB4E6E905; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:54:10 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from alvin.disid.com (224.Red-80-59-203.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.203.224]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4459EC1D for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:34:16 -0600 (CST) Received: by alvin.disid.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0372B2F592; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:34:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:34:13 +0100 From: Sergio Talens-Oliag To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040310123413.GB12383@uv.es> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040229090412.GA32374@yukidoke.org> <87llmh1omv.fsf@agnula.org> <20040309002433.GF2078@yukidoke.org> <20040309110913.GB13117@siisu.kleppe.newton> <20040309123506.GB15412@uv.es> <20040309203401.GA19980@siisu.kleppe.newton> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040309203401.GA19980@siisu.kleppe.newton> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164688 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:54:10 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 4105 Lines: 96 --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 09:34:01PM +0100, Conrad Newton escribi=F3: > From Andreas Tille on Tuesday, 2004-03-09 at 14:19:43 +0100: > > On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Sergio Talens-Oliag wrote: > >=20 > > > What I don't know is how good is cfengine for upgrades, mainly beca= use > > > I've never used it ... ;( > > If you ask me I'd prefer a tested tool like cfengine over the manual > > approach you described above. >=20 > I am not questioning the usefulness of cfengine---and yes, it is used > by skolelinux to configure the system. My question is, is this the > rational thing to do? Don't packages and configuration go together? Yes, each package needs/has its own configuration, but there is only one default configuration and if the user needs to provide information for this configuration you can use debconf. > The problem with building custom configurations into packages is of > course that in the end, you may have 200 different configurations, > or 20,000. When you include different configuration possibilities > in the packages, where do you draw the line? The package must not include the configurations, only the mechanism to generate them. > Still, I believe that packages and configuration are logically=20 > connected. Imagine a future where we have many different CDDs. > Maybe I want to have a blend of two or more different CDDs. =20 > If cfengine is my tool, I now have to tear apart the cfengine > configuration file for two different CDDs and glue them back > together again. Does this make sense? I do not think so. > I want more flexibility! Well, I imagine that you can have one cfengine script and one list of debconf answers for each package. A different thing is the way you package those files to distribute them with each CDD, probably the more logical aproach would be to generate one package for each task. =20 If two CDD give different configurations for the same package we can define some kind of automatic confict resolution mechanism to know which files we want to use or ask the user what he wants to do. > I suppose what I want (without really knowing if this already > exists) is "configuration packages" that are intimately connected > with "binary packages". The "configuration packages" might well > be in places other than the standard Debian archives, because > the burden of supporting many many different configurations is > probably too much for Debian too handle. =20 Well, if we agree on a standard mechanism to define *external* configuration scripts and on a format to package those scripts and the debconf answers for each package, storing them in a Database and making them available via web is trivial, and I don't think there will be so many for each one. > But what I gain is flexibility---I can offer my configuration > files on relatively weak server, because downloading a few > textfiles requires so little bandwidth. The binaries can > be downloaded directly from Debian. If a particular set > of "configuration packages" proves to be enormously popular, > it could be included in standard Debian. Well, what I don't really understan from your message is if you want a way to preconfigure packages or a way to replicate your *own* configuration. =20 The interesting aproach for me is the first one, because it can be used by CDDs and is more or less *upgradable*, for the second use probaly a tar file for each package is enougth. --=20 Sergio Talens-Oliag Key fingerprint =3D 29DF 544F 1BD9 548C 8F15 86EF 6770 052B B8C1 FA69 --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFATwtFZ3AFK7jB+mkRAvt+AJ9QNdABN85rbREnpk0HZoTDTkEhGgCeIsEt KI9xgiPFQj+qeyG0/X5+m+0= =YelB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2-- From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 10 08:25:13 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B14dy-0008DG-00; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:25:10 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4A9C6ED20; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:25:09 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mx2.unilogicnetworks.net (mx2.unilogicnetworks.net [62.133.192.12]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8499E899 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:51:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from router (unilogic.cust.unilogicnetworks.net [62.133.193.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx2.unilogicnetworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50A2EF155 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:51:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by router (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352366ED9C for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:50:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.0.11.93] (unknown [10.0.11.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by router (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0786E7B1 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:50:40 +0100 (CET) From: cobaco Reply-To: cobaco@linux.be To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:49:31 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <20040309203401.GA19980@siisu.kleppe.newton> In-Reply-To: <20040309203401.GA19980@siisu.kleppe.newton> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200403101449.33781.cobaco@linux.be> X-Virus-Scanned: by UNILOGIC BV (targa) - AMaViS snapshot-20020222 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164689 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:25:09 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1836 Lines: 47 =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2004-03-09 21:34, Conrad Newton wrote: > I am not questioning the usefulness of cfengine---and yes, it is used > by skolelinux to configure the system. My question is, is this the > rational thing to do? Don't packages and configuration go together? > > The problem with building custom configurations into packages is of > course that in the end, you may have 200 different configurations, > or 20,000. When you include different configuration possibilities > in the packages, where do you draw the line? IMHO what CDD's are looking for is a not so much a way to do custom=20 configuration, but more of a way to specify custom defaults (that are more= =20 suited to the particular situation/setup of the CDD's target group then the= =20 general default specified by the maintainer).=20 IMHO debconf pre-seeding is/should be the mechanism used to do that. Furthe= r=20 more I have the impression that more or less everybody involved with the=20 CDD's agrees with this, _but_ that other DD's currently don't share this=20 opinion.=20 The argument against using debconf this way is usually that this would=20 present the user with to many questions on installation of the package,=20 though as Petter explains in [1] you could use hidden debconf questions=20 which would alleviate the problem. [1]http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/debian-devel-200402/msg01085.h= tml =2D --=20 Cheers, cobaco =20 1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB) 2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFATxzt5ihPJ4ZiSrsRAoMcAKCHITo16xCHlASeAmVvTy1YLUs7NACgk9zl BwVE2KSsqLI7Uhyrm4mv0/8=3D =3D2lKD =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 10 08:29:57 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B14ib-0000L7-00; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:29:57 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id F0DC3ED93; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:29:56 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Augsburg.bund.de (augsburg.bund.de [194.95.179.209]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754CBE899 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:29:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Augsburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id PAA24746 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:29:38 +0100 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:29:31 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de To: Debian Developers Subject: [custom] Subproject HOWTO is going to be orphaned Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Mar 2004 14:29:33.0416 (UTC) FILETIME=[1B3A3E80:01C406AC] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164690 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:29:56 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 861 Lines: 23 Hi, after private discussion with Ben Armstrong we decided to take over the contents of the package subproject-howto into the new document covering Custom Debian Distributions. I managed to take over and to update the contents today and just want to let you know that bug fixes, comments and enhancements should be sended (at least in CC) to my adress to get changes to subproject-howto and my document in sync. Interested people might have a lock at: http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper-cdd/debian-cdd.html/ch-starting.en.html (Source can be found in http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper-cdd/en/06_starting.sgml ) Thanks to Ben Armstrong for his fine work. If my document is finished I'll build a package which "Replaces" the subproject-howto package (which Ben agreed to). Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 10 11:36:21 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B17cy-0004lu-00; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:36:20 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id D24F5EA52; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:36:20 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from speedy.private (206.180.153.78.adsl.hal-pc.org [206.180.153.78]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE4AFEB06 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:17:13 -0600 (CST) Received: by speedy.private (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 37B92140EC; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:17:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:17:12 -0600 From: Steve Greenland To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040310171712.GA6844@moregruel.net> Reply-To: Steve Greenland Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040309203401.GA19980@siisu.kleppe.newton> <200403101449.33781.cobaco@linux.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403101449.33781.cobaco@linux.be> Organization: Not my strong point User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164692 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:36:20 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1764 Lines: 39 On 10-Mar-04, 07:49 (CST), cobaco wrote: > The argument against using debconf this way is usually that this would > present the user with to many questions on installation of the package, > though as Petter explains in [1] you could use hidden debconf questions > which would alleviate the problem. No, the argument against using debconf that way is that for many packages, there's no need for debconf *at* *all*: they can ship a working conffile, which is handled automatically by dpkg w.r.t. upgrades and preserving local changes. As soon as you use debconf (even if the questions aren't displayed), you can no longer use the conffile mechanism, which is a giant step backwards. I can't begin to count the number of times debconf using packages have overwritten local changes. Redhat at leasts saves a backup! Now, I'll be the first to say that this isn't debconf's fault. It's entirely due to incorrect configuration file handling with the offending package. But the wide-spread occurence of this offense suggests that most maintainers *don't* understand how to use debconf (despite correct examples), and don't really understand the "debconf is not a registry" dictum. And no, questions of the form "Allow debconf to manage this configuration file?" are no the correct solution, and IMO, violate Debian Policy. But I know others disagree. I suspect that proper use of ucf solves the problem, and gives conffile-like handling to non-conffiles. But until use of ucf for "debconf-ized" packages is mandated, it won't be sufficient. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 10 11:43:25 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B17jp-0006IV-00; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:43:25 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 993A9EC25; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:43:25 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1C25AE8B1 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:43:02 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 13527 invoked by uid 65534); 10 Mar 2004 17:43:01 -0000 Received: from router.cyclades.com (EHLO [192.168.46.243]) (64.186.161.1) by mail.gmx.net (mp022) with SMTP; 10 Mar 2004 18:43:01 +0100 X-Authenticated: #3027133 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by nimrod with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.20) id 1B17hw-1zE-00 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:41:28 -0800 Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers From: Oliver Kurth To: Debian Devel ML In-Reply-To: <20040310171712.GA6844@moregruel.net> References: <20040309203401.GA19980@siisu.kleppe.newton> <200403101449.33781.cobaco@linux.be> <20040310171712.GA6844@moregruel.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-rogUyJHd1zQjZOs7zmAh" Message-Id: <1078940488.17896.69.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:41:28 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164693 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:43:25 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 893 Lines: 35 --=-rogUyJHd1zQjZOs7zmAh Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2004-03-10 at 09:17, Steve Greenland wrote: > I suspect that proper use of ucf solves the problem, and gives > conffile-like handling to non-conffiles. But until use of ucf for > "debconf-ized" packages is mandated, it won't be sufficient. Can ucf do changes to a config file while still preserving user changes and comments? Sorry, I have read the documentation, but it has not made it clear to me. Greetings, Oliver --=-rogUyJHd1zQjZOs7zmAh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBAT1NHUmVSJkUeqxsRAmSTAJ0VjlJgwbk8XVIoG+PVa84LYzlp1QCfXAcQ uNViVvBU8uxLRJjxZ/1f6Ks= =pYsD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-rogUyJHd1zQjZOs7zmAh-- From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 10 12:48:59 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B18lG-00080E-00; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:48:58 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4D704F288; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:48:56 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from server.logic.univie.ac.at (server.logic.univie.ac.at [131.130.190.41]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9E2E962 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:11:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from [81.5.252.146] (helo=[81.5.252.146] ident=Debian-exim) by server.logic.univie.ac.at with asmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B18B7-0003Ny-Ms for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:11:38 +0100 Received: from ametzler by downhill.univie.ac.at with local (Exim 4.30) id 1B188e-0001Pl-7F for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:09:04 +0100 From: Andreas Metzler Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040309203401.GA19980@siisu.kleppe.newton> <200403101449.33781.cobaco@linux.be> <20040310171712.GA6844@moregruel.net> <1078940488.17896.69.camel@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: X-Archive: encrypt X-GPG-Fingerprint: BCF7 1345 BE42 B5B8 1A57 EE09 1D33 9C65 8B8D 7663 X-Face: &b=,INK@Jj\Yt<7362+W"u Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:09:04 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164696 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:48:56 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 902 Lines: 24 Oliver Kurth wrote: > On Wed, 2004-03-10 at 09:17, Steve Greenland wrote: >> I suspect that proper use of ucf solves the problem, and gives >> conffile-like handling to non-conffiles. But until use of ucf for >> "debconf-ized" packages is mandated, it won't be sufficient. > Can ucf do changes to a config file while still preserving user changes > and comments? > Sorry, I have read the documentation, but it has not made it clear to > me. [...] No it cannot. ucf offers *dpkg-like* conffile managment for configuration files that are not shipped in the deb but are generated at install time, i.e. you get "file foo changed. ... Y or I : install the package maintainer's version, ...". cu andreas -- NMUs aren't an insult, they're not an attack, and they're not something to avoid or be ashamed of. Anthony Towns in 2004-02 on debian-devel From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 10 12:49:27 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B18lj-00086G-00; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:49:27 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 6D54DEFEF; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:49:23 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from speedy.private (206.180.153.78.adsl.hal-pc.org [206.180.153.78]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F469EC31 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:12:21 -0600 (CST) Received: by speedy.private (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ECE48140EC; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:12:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:12:20 -0600 From: Steve Greenland To: Debian Devel ML Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers Message-ID: <20040310181220.GA7168@moregruel.net> Reply-To: Steve Greenland Mail-Followup-To: Debian Devel ML References: <20040309203401.GA19980@siisu.kleppe.newton> <200403101449.33781.cobaco@linux.be> <20040310171712.GA6844@moregruel.net> <1078940488.17896.69.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1078940488.17896.69.camel@localhost> Organization: Not my strong point User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164697 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:49:23 -0600 (CST) Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2068 Lines: 45 On 10-Mar-04, 11:41 (CST), Oliver Kurth wrote: > Can ucf do changes to a config file while still preserving user changes > and comments? No, and it doesn't have to. All it has to do is provide the equivalent of dpkg conffile handling[1]. And I believe it does that. What is needed that *all* packages that generate configuration files (rather than shipping conffiles) start using it (preferably with the "--three-way" option, which adds a nice bonus to the basic dpkg conffile handling), or otherwise *stop overwriting my local modifications*! The problem is that many debconf-using packages re-generate the configuration file on every update, without doing anything to check whether or not the user has changed it. Even with ucf, adding debconf solely to provide custom distributions a handle to tweak still strikes me as a bad tradeoff. Right now, cron ships with several conffiles. Shipping a file is pretty straightforward. Changing that to generating them on the fly during the install, using ucf or some other mechanism to avoid overwriting local changes, means adding code to at least the postinst and postrm, which means ample opportunity for mistakes. All this for the benefit of the relatively few users of debian-whatever. It's really too bad dpkg-divert doesn't support conffiles. Then the custom dists could create a specific whatever-configs package that had the modified configuration files, diverting the originals. Yes, there would be a maintenance burden, but there is in either case, and this technique would put it where it belongs: on the maintainers of the custom distribution. Steve [1] Short version: if upstream changes, and local is the same (md5sum) as the previously distributed version, then overwrite. If local is different, then ask. If upstream is the same as previously distributed, don't replace local version. -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Mar 11 18:01:32 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B1a7I-0005Tt-00; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:01:32 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id A8D85F44B; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:01:32 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from glaurung.internal.golden-gryphon.com (host-12-107-230-171.dtccom.net [12.107.230.171]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF63DF39A for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:29:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from glaurung.internal.golden-gryphon.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by glaurung.internal.golden-gryphon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-3) with ESMTP id i2BLKDRC001349 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:20:49 -0600 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.internal.golden-gryphon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-3) id i2BLJjV0001043; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:19:45 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: glaurung.internal.golden-gryphon.com: srivasta set sender to srivasta@debian.org using -f X-Mailer: emacs 21.3.1 (via feedmail 8 I) To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers References: <20040309203401.GA19980@siisu.kleppe.newton> <200403101449.33781.cobaco@linux.be> <20040310171712.GA6844@moregruel.net> <1078940488.17896.69.camel@localhost> From: Manoj Srivastava Organization: The Debian Project X-URL: http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) (i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mail-Copies-To: nobody X-Face: #q.#]5@vq!Jz+E0t_/;Y^gTjR\T^"B'fbeuVGiyKrvbfKJl!^e|e:iu(kJ6c|QYB57LP*|t &YlP~HF/=h:GA6o6W@I#deQL-%#.6]!z:6Cj0kd#4]>*D,|0djf'CVlXkI,>aV4\}?d_KEqsN{Nnt7 78"OsbQ["56/!nisvyB/uA5Q.{)gm6?q.j71ww.>b9b]-sG8zNt%KkIa>xWg&1VcjZk[hBQ>]j~`Wq Xl,y1a!(>6`UM{~'X[Y_,Bv+}=L\SS*mA8=s;!=O`ja|@PEzb&i0}Qp,`Z\:6:OmRi* Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:19:44 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1078940488.17896.69.camel@localhost> (Oliver Kurth's message of "Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:41:28 -0800") Message-ID: <87y8q7rsi7.fsf@glaurung.internal.golden-gryphon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <0xNFiC.A.ylC.c3PUAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164788 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:01:32 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1134 Lines: 29 On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:41:28 -0800, Oliver Kurth said: > On Wed, 2004-03-10 at 09:17, Steve Greenland wrote: >> I suspect that proper use of ucf solves the problem, and gives >> conffile-like handling to non-conffiles. But until use of ucf for >> "debconf-ized" packages is mandated, it won't be sufficient. > Can ucf do changes to a config file while still preserving user > changes and comments? Not really. ucf does offer a diff3 style merge option (take the changes between maintainers old version, maintainers new version, and apply the change to the installed configuration file, but there is no guarantee that the patch would apply. > Sorry, I have read the documentation, but it has not made it clear > to me. Suggestions for improvements, patches, etc are always welcome. manoj -- The last time I saw him he was walking down Lover's Lane holding his own hand. Fred Allen Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Mar 12 09:19:12 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B1oRM-0004I0-00; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:19:12 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 0669AEB6E; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:19:11 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from micha.hampshire.edu (micha.hampshire.edu [192.101.188.235]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4849BF1E3 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:18:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from micha ([127.0.0.1] helo=kamna ident=mako) by micha.hampshire.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1B1oQv-0002hj-00 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:18:46 -0500 Received: from mako by kamna with local (Exim 4.30) id 1B1oQt-0001ti-Q3 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:18:43 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:18:41 +0100 From: "Benj. Mako Hill" To: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers (continued) Message-ID: <20040312151841.GD5024@yukidoke.org> Mail-Followup-To: Debian Developers References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="kbCYTQG2MZjuOjyn" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: "Benj. Mako Hill" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164870 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:19:11 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1838 Lines: 59 --kbCYTQG2MZjuOjyn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 01:24:40PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: > I guess Mako will not complain if I bring this thead back onto the > debian-devel list... Nope. But I'm sure it will confuse people who were not paying attention. :) > > AT> I hate to explain over and over explaining random people who > > have no AT> idea about CDDs in long threads. That's why I startet > > to write my AT> article and throw an RTFM on them. > > > > I think you should consider drafting this on the Wiki or in a > > series of wiki pages. So far this has worked very well for letting > > other people contribute to the document. > Hmmmm, you mean http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?CustomDebian ? I > have to admit that I really want to be much more verbose and that I > do not really like this Wiki type of approach. I plan to put my > article about CDD which is written in debiandoc-sgml > http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper-cdd/ into a > CVS repositor on Alioth once it is ready and I think this is a more > solid resource of information. I'm willing to host it in an open CVS repository straight away. Lets talk offlist about the details. Is there a reason it's debiandoc and not DocBook SGML or XML? If not, I'd be happy to do the conversion. Regards, Mako --=20 Benjamin Mako Hill mako@debian.org http://mako.yukidoke.org/ --kbCYTQG2MZjuOjyn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAUdTRic1LIWB1WeYRAtCRAKDnVK7+bD8DniAZgkuezdypr5/wVgCgyYz9 rR7eDXK5YwHgRP02Y/Bqq/A= =lsn1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --kbCYTQG2MZjuOjyn-- From list@murphy.debian.org Sat Mar 13 01:26:52 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B23Xn-00087b-00; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:26:51 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id C73AAF0A4; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:26:51 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.102]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2823EFCB for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:26:48 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i2D7Qlr12216 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:26:47 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Sat Mar 13 08:26:47 2004 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:26:35 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Custom Debian Distros need the help from debian developers (continued) In-Reply-To: <20040312151841.GD5024@yukidoke.org> Message-Id: References: <20040312151841.GD5024@yukidoke.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Mar 2004 07:26:37.0145 (UTC) FILETIME=[8507D490:01C408CC] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_02_24 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164931 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:26:51 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1231 Lines: 28 On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Benj. Mako Hill wrote: > I'm willing to host it in an open CVS repository straight away. Lets > talk offlist about the details. I hope for Alioth in a couple of days .. > Is there a reason it's debiandoc and not DocBook SGML or XML? If not, > I'd be happy to do the conversion. Well my first paper about Debian-Med http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper/ is in linuxdoc. I had to convert it into XML with a certain for LinuxTag. I feltt not really happy with both formats. So I had a look at what other Debian develoers do for this purpose in terms of Custom Debian Distributions. The only available document was the subproject-howto and it was written in debiandoc. The only missing feature is a
tag (bug #140684). As usual Debian tools are relieable and good work and it seems to me apropriate to uses debiandoc for Debian related documentation. But if there are good reasons to use other formats I would not complain if someone has enouth time to convert this to any other format. My only condition for accepting a conversion is that also the Makefile will be convertet and is able to produce *all* contained targets with free tools. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 24 03:09:48 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B64OS-0003i2-00; Wed, 24 Mar 2004 03:09:48 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 9E113F139; Wed, 24 Mar 2004 03:09:48 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.101]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D050EF12A for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2004 03:09:14 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i2O99E000424 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:09:14 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Wed Mar 24 10:09:14 2004 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:04:14 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de To: Debian Developers Subject: [custom] Generalizing building scripts of meta packages Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Mar 2004 09:04:18.0592 (UTC) FILETIME=[FD44EA00:01C4117E] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/165709 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 03:09:48 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2209 Lines: 50 Hi, I'm currently working on the move from the former packaging method of Debian-Med meta packages to the Debian-Edu scheme which builds all meta packages from one source. I'd like to uses as much as possible common code which will end up in a cdd-dev package which might be used by all Custom Debian Distributions. (I'll check this into alioth once it is up and running again.) The first changes I did are regarding gen-control script of debian-edu Changes to gen-control - Use /etc/cdd/sources.list as default sources.list If "-s " is specified /etc/cdd/sources.list. is used. Otherwise the argument to option -s is used as sources.list. - /tmp/cdd-apt is used as $aptdir The rationale behind this is to keep the cache stored on building machine even after cleaning up build directory. - The file debian/control.stub is searched for an entry "^Package: ". If this is found it is used as prefix for the packages, so the builded packages are named as -{task1,task2,task3,...}. The default cdd remains "education-". - If there is a common directory a -common package is builded as well. In this case a file common/control must be provided. This changes would not require any change in the debian-edu packaging stuff. I just want to discuss the fact that Building meta packages might depend from the configuration of cdd-dev (*if* /etc/cdd/sources.list is used). The rationale behind this was that when *developing* the packages on different machines (perhaps offline with a local mirror) you can work nicely and meta packages are normally architecture "all" - thus no problems with auto builders are to be expected. Moreover you are always free to provide a source.list file for your *final* build of the package while using the "-s" option as before. What is your opinion about uding /tmp/cdd-apt to keep the apt-cache? What do you think about building debian/control for every build instead of calling gen-control only once and continue with the created debian/control file. Kind regards Andreas. PS: If you want to get rid of [custom] tagged mails in debian-devel just write a comment to #237017. From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Mar 26 01:20:57 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B6leC-0005eF-00; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:20:56 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 71F9FF577; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:20:56 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Regensburg.bund.de (regensburg.bund.de [194.95.179.188]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336C8F0D4 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:20:47 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Regensburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id IAA04447 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:20:46 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:19:53 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de To: Debian Developers Subject: [custom] How to handle non-free packages Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2004 07:20:00.0894 (UTC) FILETIME=[C03779E0:01C41302] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/165897 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:20:56 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 373 Lines: 12 Hi, in the past I builded a med-bio-contrib package which depended from some microbiology related packages from non-free. I' have seen that Debian-Edu prefers the approach not to build such a separate package but to list these non-free packages as "Suggests". I think this is the better solution but I would like to hear your opinions. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Mar 26 02:54:02 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B6n6I-00005i-00; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:54:02 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id F3D59F5B1; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:54:02 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.101]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7A8CEF30 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:53:58 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i2Q8rvd03288 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:53:57 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Fri Mar 26 09:53:57 2004 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:53:04 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de To: Debian Developers Subject: [custom] Any idea how to handle versioned dependencies Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2004 08:53:11.0580 (UTC) FILETIME=[C48675C0:01C4130F] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/165901 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:54:02 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 364 Lines: 19 Hi, I'm fiddling around to improve debian-edu gen-control script. I found out that gen-control currently does not cope with versioned dependencies like for instance Depends: debianutils (>= 2.6.2) in a tasks file leads to Missing or avoided packages: debianutils (>= 2.6.2) Any opinions how to handle this sanely? Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Mar 26 07:30:36 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B6rPw-00062W-00; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:30:36 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id C0275ECDE; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:30:36 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.101]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C4FEBF2 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:30:26 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i2QDUQ428297 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:30:26 +0100 (CET) Received: (from localhost) by a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a1.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Fri Mar 26 14:30:25 2004 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:30:04 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de To: Debian Developers Subject: [custom] ITP: cdd -- Custom Debian Distributions common package (fwd) Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2004 13:30:11.0617 (UTC) FILETIME=[76D6D910:01C41336] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <-ufIHB.A.grG.8BDZAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/165942 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:30:36 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1641 Lines: 46 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:48:04 +0100 From: Andreas Tille To: Debian Bug Tracking System Subject: ITP: cdd -- Custom Debian Distributions common package Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name : cdd Version : 0.2 Upstream Author : Andreas Tille , Petter Reinholdtsen * URL : CVS: http://cvs.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/CVSROOT/common/cdd/?cvsroot=cdd * License : GPL Description : Custom Debian Distributions common package The source should be split up into to binary packages: cdd-dev: Custom Debian Distributions common files for developing meta packages This package makes life easier when packaging meta packages. Perhaps this will also encourage other people to build meta packages if there are easy to use templates where only the packages, the meta package is depending from, to insert into the right place. cdd-common: Custom Debian Distributions common package This package builds the basic infra structure for meta packages. . This package provides some files which are common to meta packages of Common Debian Distributions. It introduces a method to handle system users in a group named according to the name of the Custom Debian Distribution. Kind regards Andreas. -- System Information: Debian Release: testing/unstable APT prefers testing APT policy: (499, 'testing'), (50, 'unstable') Architecture: i386 (i686) Kernel: Linux 2.4.22 Locale: LANG=de_DE@euro, LC_CTYPE=de_DE@euro (ignored: LC_ALL set to de_DE@euro) From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Mar 28 18:22:32 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B7kXw-0005bY-00; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:22:32 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 264E2F3A4; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:22:33 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.albizi15.biz (host24-203.pool8175.interbusiness.it [81.75.203.24]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD003F37B for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:22:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from free (host59-37.pool80182.interbusiness.it [80.182.37.59]) by mail.albizi15.biz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF8122F9F for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:16:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by free with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B7kWR-0001b7-00 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:20:59 +0200 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Generalizing building scripts of meta packages References: From: Free Ekanayaka Organization: AGNULA MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:20:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Andreas Tille's message of "Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:04:14 +0100 (CET)") Message-ID: <878yhkld05.fsf@tin.it> User-Agent: T-gnus/6.15.7 (based on Oort Gnus v0.08) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.6 (Marutamachi) APEL/10.6 MULE XEmacs/21.4 (patch 15) (Security Through Obscurity) (i386-debian-linux) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.7 required=4.0 tests=ADDR_FREE,FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: * Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166251 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:22:33 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 3293 Lines: 75 >>>>> On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:04:14 +0100 (CET), Andreas Tille said: Andreas> Hi, I'm currently working on the move from the former Andreas> packaging method of Debian-Med meta packages to the Andreas> Debian-Edu scheme which builds all meta packages from one Andreas> source. I'd like to uses as much as possible common code Andreas> which will end up in a cdd-dev package which might be Andreas> used by all Custom Debian Distributions. (I'll check Andreas> this into alioth once it is up and running again.) I think this is a good idea. What are you planning to include in the cdd-dev package exactly? A template for a custom source meta-package? Andreas> The first changes I did are regarding gen-control script Andreas> of debian-edu Andreas> Changes to gen-control - Use /etc/cdd/sources.list as Andreas> default sources.list If "-s " is specified Andreas> /etc/cdd/sources.list. is used. Otherwise the Andreas> argument to option -s is used as sources.list. - Ok. I admit I do not fully understand the arguments on this issue you state below, but, as long a custom sources.list can be specified via the -s option, everything is fine for me. Andreas> /tmp/cdd-apt is used as $aptdir The rationale behind this Andreas> is to keep the cache stored on building machine even Andreas> after cleaning up build directory. Ok. Andreas>- The file Andreas> debian/control.stub is searched for an entry "^Package: Andreas> ". If this is found it is used as prefix for the Andreas> packages, so the builded packages are named as Andreas> -{task1,task2,task3,...}. The default cdd remains Andreas> "education-". Good. Having one single point to edit when customising the template would be great. Andreas> - If there is a common directory a Andreas> -common package is builded as well. In this case a Andreas> file common/control must be provided. What is the package -common supposed to contain exactly? Specific files and data for the CDD? Andreas> This changes would not require any change in the Andreas> debian-edu packaging stuff. I just want to discuss the Andreas> fact that Building meta packages might depend from the Andreas> configuration of cdd-dev (*if* /etc/cdd/sources.list is Andreas> used). The rationale behind this was that when Andreas> *developing* the packages on different machines (perhaps Andreas> offline with a local mirror) you can work nicely and meta Andreas> packages are normally architecture "all" - thus no Andreas> problems with auto builders are to be expected. Moreover Andreas> you are always free to provide a source.list file for Andreas> your *final* build of the package while using the "-s" Andreas> option as before. Andreas> What is your opinion about uding /tmp/cdd-apt to keep the Andreas> apt-cache? Fine for me. Andreas> What do you think about building debian/control for every Andreas> build instead of calling gen-control only once and Andreas> continue with the created debian/control file. Yes, I think regenerating the control file at every build is a better choice. Cheers, Free Ekanayaka From list@murphy.debian.org Sun Mar 28 23:40:01 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B7pVA-0004fw-00; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:40:00 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id F3A05E916; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:29:36 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Augsburg.bund.de (augsburg.bund.de [194.95.179.209]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7F3E9F6 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:28:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Augsburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id HAA12872 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:28:45 +0200 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:28:14 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de To: Free Ekanayaka Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Generalizing building scripts of meta packages In-Reply-To: <87ad20ld1c.fsf@tin.it> Message-Id: References: <87ad20ld1c.fsf@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2004 05:28:25.0856 (UTC) FILETIME=[A8E70000:01C4154E] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166274 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:29:36 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1362 Lines: 35 On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Free Ekanayaka wrote: [I think I should foreward this to debian-devel even if I quote small parts of your private mails...] > I think this is a good idea. What are you planning to include in the > cdd-dev package exactly? A template for a custom source meta-package? http://cvs.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cdd/common/?cvsroot=cdd Just try to get an Alioth account and I'll add you to the project. > What is the package -common supposed to contain exactly? Specific > files and data for the CDD? The (current and future) med-common has debconf templates for administration of med - users, a simple script which just showas some information which each other med - package is symlinking to. This enables auto-apt usage like this: ~ auto-apt -x -y run $ med-bio ... Med-bio and its dependencies will be installed automagically which is kind of cool when demonstrating it in workshops or at a exhibition booth, but not really honest stuff. So the main thing is the user administration currently but I'm pretty sure that there will be additional uses of a common package in the future. > Yes, I think regenerating the control file at every build is a better > choice. OK. In any case you are free to do it once by calling cdd-gen-control outside of your debian/rules file. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Mar 29 05:30:28 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B7uyJ-0005yA-00; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:30:27 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 27D5CF094; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:31:13 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.albizi15.biz (host24-203.pool8175.interbusiness.it [81.75.203.24]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B41F0C6 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:31:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from free (host21-37.pool80182.interbusiness.it [80.182.37.21]) by mail.albizi15.biz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7F922F9F; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:25:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by free with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B7t5c-0000Un-00; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:29:52 +0200 To: Andreas Tille Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Generalizing building scripts of meta packages References: <87ad20ld1c.fsf@tin.it> From: Free Ekanayaka Organization: AGNULA MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:29:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Andreas Tille's message of "Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:28:14 +0200 (CEST)") Message-ID: <87smfsf1bk.fsf@tin.it> User-Agent: T-gnus/6.15.7 (based on Oort Gnus v0.08) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.6 (Marutamachi) APEL/10.6 MULE XEmacs/21.4 (patch 15) (Security Through Obscurity) (i386-debian-linux) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.7 required=4.0 tests=ADDR_FREE,FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: * Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166290 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:31:13 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2195 Lines: 48 >>>>> On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:28:14 +0200 (CEST), Andreas Tille said: >> What is the package -common supposed to contain exactly? >> Specific files and data for the CDD? Andreas> The (current and future) med-common has debconf templates Andreas> for administration of med - users, a simple script which Andreas> just showas some information which each other med - Andreas> package is symlinking to. This enables auto-apt usage Andreas> like this: Andreas> ~ auto-apt -x -y run $ med-bio ... Andreas> Med-bio and its dependencies will be installed Andreas> automagically which is kind of cool when demonstrating it Andreas> in workshops or at a exhibition booth, but not really Andreas> honest stuff. So the main thing is the user Andreas> administration currently but I'm pretty sure that there Andreas> will be additional uses of a common package in the Andreas> future. Nice. I think this shows that the possibility to have a -common package which is not auto-generated from the a tasks/* file is a good thing, and everybody is free to use it in the way he/she prefers. On the other hand, speaking about possible debconf questions and automatic system configuration, I like very much the approach of the debian-edu-config/debian-edu-install packages. That means having a separate source package (after all this is not a task package), which holds a pre-canned set of debconf values to inject and which manages everything else via cfengine. My only concern is that I'd move the debconf part of debian-edu-install into debian-edu-config. This way everything related with configuration is managed in a single source package which I'd call "-config", while I'd call the source package for the - packages "-tasks", and a possible installation level package "-install". >> Yes, I think regenerating the control file at every build is a >> better choice. Andreas> OK. In any case you are free to do it once by calling Andreas> cdd-gen-control outside of your debian/rules file. Fine. Cheers, Free Ekanayaka From list@murphy.debian.org Mon Mar 29 07:01:45 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B7wOf-0004K2-00; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:01:45 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 91006EEFB; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:01:45 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Regensburg.bund.de (regensburg.bund.de [194.95.179.188]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701C5EE76 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:01:28 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Regensburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id PAA24481 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:01:27 +0200 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:01:04 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Generalizing building scripts of meta packages In-Reply-To: <87smfsf1bk.fsf@tin.it> Message-Id: References: <87ad20ld1c.fsf@tin.it> <87smfsf1bk.fsf@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2004 13:01:16.0082 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB9E7920:01C4158D] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166302 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:01:45 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1540 Lines: 32 On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Free Ekanayaka wrote: > Nice. I think this shows that the possibility to have a -common > package which is not auto-generated from the a tasks/* file is a good > thing, and everybody is free to use it in the way he/she prefers. > > On the other hand, speaking about possible debconf questions and > automatic system configuration, I like very much the approach of the > debian-edu-config/debian-edu-install packages. That means having a > separate source package (after all this is not a task package), which > holds a pre-canned set of debconf values to inject and which manages > everything else via cfengine. Well, the reason is that I did not had the time to check this package and just tied to implement all stuff I need into a similiar build system. Just regard all I have done as a "request for comment" work and feel free to send patches. [Damn Alioth seems to be down once again :-((] > My only concern is that I'd move the debconf part of > debian-edu-install into debian-edu-config. This way everything related > with configuration is managed in a single source package which I'd > call "-config", while I'd call the source package for the > - packages "-tasks", and a possible installation level > package "-install". May be it would make sense to move -common to a separate source package (I do not care about the name here - but the user menu configuration and auto-apt - helper, etc.) Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 31 02:30:25 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B8b7A-0006he-00; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:30:24 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id EBD92F175; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:30:23 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Ulm.bund.de (ulm.bund.de [194.95.179.208]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4EE2E9C6 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:30:12 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Ulm.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id KAA19187 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:30:10 +0200 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:19:45 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de To: Debian Developers Subject: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2004 08:20:00.0416 (UTC) FILETIME=[F5C3B200:01C416F8] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166511 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:30:23 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 768 Lines: 23 Hi, a new package cdd (binary packages cdd-dev and cdd-common) is in the incoming queue and will (hopefully) enter unstable soon. The documentation according to this at http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper-cdd/debian-cdd.html/ch-technology.en.html#s-med_common was updated. For the impatient, the sources of the cdd packages are available via CVS in http://cvs.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cdd/common/?cvsroot=cdd Moreover I want to say that I'm optimistic that a CDD mailing liste will be created soon and this kind of information will be moved there. I plan to foreward some of the last mails to debian-devel then to get it archived. Once this is done I'll prepare an offical announcement. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 31 02:55:07 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B8bV5-00049a-00; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:55:07 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 27658ECBE; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:55:06 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC83E9F2 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:54:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail-mx3.uio.no ([129.240.10.44]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B8bUv-0005sg-Ld; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:54:57 +0200 Received: from saruman.uio.no ([129.240.201.202]) by mail-mx3.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B8bUt-0005cC-W1; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:54:55 +0200 Received: from pre by saruman.uio.no with local (Exim 2.12 #7) id 1B8bUt-0003l7-00; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:54:55 +0200 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:54:54 +0200 From: Petter Reinholdtsen To: Andreas Tille Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building Message-ID: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from tillea@rki.de on Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 10:19:45AM +0200 Sender: Petter Reinholdtsen X-MailScanner-Information: This message has been scanned for viruses/spam. Contact postmaster@uio.no if you have questions about this scanning X-UiO-MailScanner: No virus found X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5, required 12, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166517 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:55:06 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 539 Lines: 14 Andreas, I must say that I am very pleased with the work you are doing, and that I plan to look more deeply into it and give feedback when I get my head above water. At the moment I am unable to keep up with the inflow of email, and all the tasks left for both Debian Edu, NUUG and Work, so I just trust you to do the right thing without my input. :) I look forward to testing your updated control file generation script with debian-edu. :) I also look forward to test the results from the discsussion about how to make a live CD. :) From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 31 03:54:10 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B8cQE-0005RP-00; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:54:10 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 5531FEE5C; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:54:09 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Augsburg.bund.de (augsburg.bund.de [194.95.179.209]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314FBEB65 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:54:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Augsburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id LAA12932 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:53:54 +0200 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:52:46 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building In-Reply-To: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> Message-Id: References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2004 09:53:01.0488 (UTC) FILETIME=[F457B300:01C41705] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <2eyR9D.A.9wE.BVpaAB@murphy> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166520 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:54:09 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1005 Lines: 25 On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > I must say that I am very pleased with the work you are doing, and > that I plan to look more deeply into it and give feedback when I get > my head above water. At the moment I am unable to keep up with the > inflow of email, and all the tasks left for both Debian Edu, NUUG and > Work, so I just trust you to do the right thing without my input. :) Thanks. ;-) > I look forward to testing your updated control file generation script > with debian-edu. :) If I did not introduce many bugs you should be fine by just renaming some script calls ... > I also look forward to test the results from the discsussion about how > to make a live CD. :) I have to admit here that I definitely unable to clone myself and I'm really hoping for other people to step in here. I have to focus on things which I'm abel to manage but I will continue to propagate the *idea* while hoping to bring the metadistros people into the boat. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 31 10:47:55 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B8isd-0005GQ-00; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:47:55 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 7E249EBE9; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:47:54 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.albizi15.biz (host24-203.pool8175.interbusiness.it [81.75.203.24]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78AECEC53 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:47:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from free (host181-129.pool80180.interbusiness.it [80.180.129.181]) by mail.albizi15.biz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE2622F9F for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:42:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by free with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B8jn5-0000Nb-00 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:46:15 +0200 To: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> From: Free Ekanayaka Organization: AGNULA MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:46:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> (Petter Reinholdtsen's message of "Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:54:54 +0200") Message-ID: <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> User-Agent: T-gnus/6.15.7 (based on Oort Gnus v0.08) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.6 (Marutamachi) APEL/10.6 MULE XEmacs/21.4 (patch 15) (Security Through Obscurity) (i386-debian-linux) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.7 required=4.0 tests=ADDR_FREE,FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: * Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166554 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:47:54 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1066 Lines: 30 >>>>> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:54:54 +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen said: Petter> Andreas, I must say that I am very pleased with the work Petter> you are doing Mee too, I'm happy to see that things are moving :) Petter> , and that I plan to look more deeply into it Petter> and give feedback when I get my head above water. At the Petter> moment I am unable to keep up with the inflow of email, Petter> and all the tasks left for both Debian Edu, NUUG and Work, Petter> so I just trust you to do the right thing without my Petter> input. :) I've similar problems :/. I've checked out the CVS tree of the cdd project, but I didn't find the time to look inside. I think I'll do it the next week. Petter> I look forward to testing your updated control file Petter> generation script with debian-edu. :) Petter> I also look forward to test the results from the Petter> discsussion about how to make a live CD. :) Which discussion? I'm really interested on the subject.. Cheers, Free Ekanayaka From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 31 13:42:14 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B8lbJ-0006J4-00; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:42:13 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 33EF7EB71; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:42:13 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (fw-berlin.bund.de [194.95.177.102]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A31DE9BB for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:41:57 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i2VJfup22444 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:41:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from localhost) by a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a2.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Wed Mar 31 21:41:56 2004 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:41:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building In-Reply-To: <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> Message-Id: References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2004 19:41:53.0137 (UTC) FILETIME=[37A57E10:01C41758] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166569 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:42:13 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 535 Lines: 15 On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Free Ekanayaka wrote: > I've similar problems :/. I've checked out the CVS tree of the cdd > project, but I didn't find the time to look inside. I think I'll do it > the next week. Just talk about this to people. I'm sure we can attract more people currently beeing outside of Debian if they catch the idea ... > Which discussion? I'm really interested on the subject.. http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper-cdd/debian-cdd.html/ch-todo.en.html#s-liveCD Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 31 15:08:23 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B8mwh-0004LQ-00; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:08:23 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 23509E95E; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:08:24 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from alvin.disid.com (224.Red-80-59-203.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.203.224]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1192CE892 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:08:07 -0600 (CST) Received: by alvin.disid.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DB01C2F80E; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:08:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:08:00 +0200 From: Sergio Talens-Oliag To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building Message-ID: <20040331210800.GA8646@uv.es> Mail-Followup-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166583 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:08:24 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2562 Lines: 69 --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 09:41:36PM +0200, Andreas Tille escribi=F3: > On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Free Ekanayaka wrote: >=20 > > I've similar problems :/. I've checked out the CVS tree of the cdd > > project, but I didn't find the time to look inside. I think I'll do it > > the next week. > Just talk about this to people. I'm sure we can attract more people > currently beeing outside of Debian if they catch the idea ... >=20 > > Which discussion? I'm really interested on the subject.. > http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper-cdd/debian-cdd= =2Ehtml/ch-todo.en.html#s-liveCD I'm still very interested in the CDDs and all the work Andreas is doing, but I've been quite busy lately. =20 I'll try to cach up with the documents and code that is beeing written and see what I can do to help. =20 By the way, I sent an e-mail to the meta-distros mailing list some time ago and asked them to enter in the LiveCD disscusion we started, but the answer from the main project leader was that the objectives of Metadistros are not similar to the ones of the Debian-Knoppix project and that they can't be joined for several reasons. =20 In his explanations he said that the main problem is that Debian wants a Debian tool to make its own LiveCDs but Metadistros wants to give tools to let anyone create a distribution that can be used as LiveCD and/or installed and be based in whatever linux distribution the user wants. As he sees it, instead of *marrying* them more with Debian their idea is to separate their code to be independent of any distribution, letting their system work with any distribution. Anyway, he said that if they can cooperate in any way they will be happy to do it. If anyone wants to read his original e-mail, it is archived here (in spanish): https://listas.hispalinux.es/pipermail/meta-distros/2004-March/003728.h= tml --=20 Sergio Talens-Oliag Key fingerprint =3D 29DF 544F 1BD9 548C 8F15 86EF 6770 052B B8C1 FA69 --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAazMwZ3AFK7jB+mkRApc+AJwKrGorCs0ss7Bx59ElVCMRvc3GJwCfaVFZ tNSwSAOKMnv57VZPZEQ20k0= =R+Iy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq-- From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 31 15:16:16 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B8n4K-0006jq-00; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:16:16 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 9BC5CF18C; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:16:16 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.albizi15.biz (host24-203.pool8175.interbusiness.it [81.75.203.24]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFB0ED4F for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:15:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from free (host181-129.pool80180.interbusiness.it [80.180.129.181]) by mail.albizi15.biz (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E0D22F9F for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:10:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by free with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B8nys-0001c4-00 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:14:42 +0200 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> From: Free Ekanayaka Organization: AGNULA MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:14:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Andreas Tille's message of "Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:41:36 +0200 (CEST)") Message-ID: <8765ck3bqm.fsf@tin.it> User-Agent: T-gnus/6.15.7 (based on Oort Gnus v0.08) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.6 (Marutamachi) APEL/10.6 MULE XEmacs/21.4 (patch 6) (Common Lisp) (i386-debian-linux) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.7 required=4.0 tests=ADDR_FREE,FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: * Resent-Message-ID: <9sM83D.A.xR.gUzaAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166584 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:16:16 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1466 Lines: 33 >>>>> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:41:36 +0200 (CEST), Andreas Tille said: Andreas> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Free Ekanayaka wrote: >> I've similar problems :/. I've checked out the CVS tree of the >> cdd project, but I didn't find the time to look inside. I think >> I'll do it the next week. Andreas> Just talk about this to people. I'm sure we can attract Andreas> more people currently beeing outside of Debian if they Andreas> catch the idea ... >> Which discussion? I'm really interested on the subject.. Andreas> Andreas> http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper-cdd/debian-cdd.html/ch-todo.en.html#s-liveCD Thanks for the link, I did not read the the updated version of your docs :/, you are working so fast! ;-) The bottom-up approach you suggest is definitively the way to go. Of course that the best suited people to provide the knoppix-* packages are the Knoppix team itself. Are they already working to something like this? Moreover this confirm my impression that there are many people around working independently on similar issues more or less related with what the CDDs are all about, but without knowing each other. For example right these days I am discussing about the Live CD with the AGNULA/DeMuDi team [0], basically ending up to the same conclusions. Cheers, Free Ekanayaka [0] http://lists.agnula.org/pipermail/developers/2004-March/005646.html From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 31 23:40:19 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B8uw7-0007Yj-00; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:40:19 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 960EBE8FA; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:40:19 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Regensburg.bund.de (regensburg.bund.de [194.95.179.188]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F99F3D4 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:40:13 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Regensburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id HAA19323 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:40:13 +0200 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:39:35 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building In-Reply-To: <20040331210800.GA8646@uv.es> Message-Id: References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> <20040331210800.GA8646@uv.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2004 05:39:51.0806 (UTC) FILETIME=[C0FFE9E0:01C417AB] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <73nLHD.A.yDF.Dt6aAB@murphy> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166628 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:40:19 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1150 Lines: 30 On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Sergio Talens-Oliag wrote: > I'll try to cach up with the documents and code that is beeing written > and see what I can do to help. I have to admit that there isn't any code written yet ... :-( > In his explanations he said that the main problem is that Debian wants > a Debian tool to make its own LiveCDs but Metadistros wants to give > tools to let anyone create a distribution that can be used as LiveCD > and/or installed and be based in whatever linux distribution the user > wants. While I completely accept their intention to be independant from a distribution I see no reason to keep the Debian related part of meta distros inside Debian. > Anyway, he said that if they can cooperate in any way they will be > happy to do it. Fine. > If anyone wants to read his original e-mail, it is archived here (in > spanish): > > https://listas.hispalinux.es/pipermail/meta-distros/2004-March/003728.html Uhmm, that's not very helpful. Could anybody give them a hint to support an international mailing list if they want to work together with the rest of the world? Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Wed Mar 31 23:47:00 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B8v2a-0000NK-00; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:47:00 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 4D13BF3E9; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:47:01 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Regensburg.bund.de (regensburg.bund.de [194.95.179.188]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B9DE905 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:46:57 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Regensburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id HAA19916 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:46:57 +0200 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:46:38 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building In-Reply-To: <8765ck3bqm.fsf@tin.it> Message-Id: References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> <8765ck3bqm.fsf@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2004 05:46:55.0217 (UTC) FILETIME=[BD5F4E10:01C417AC] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166629 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:47:01 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1355 Lines: 30 On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Free Ekanayaka wrote: > The bottom-up approach you suggest is definitively the way to go. Of > course that the best suited people to provide the knoppix-* packages > are the Knoppix team itself. Are they already working to something > like this? When I did a workshop on LinuxTag Karlsruhe last year Klaus Knopper was present and regarded it as a really cool idea. He would definitely support efforts in this direction but he admitted that he does not feel competent enough regarding Debian packaging and his time scale does not permit to work in this direction. Moreover Fabian Franz (who is busy writing the harddisk installer for Knoppix and some other Knoppix related stuff) was successful in implementing the bottom-up approach for PowerPC. BUt this was more or less a design study and Fabian told me that he has time constraints to continue working on this topic. There were some other people interested and did some stuff which might be a good start, but all in all it is currently not much more than an idea ... > Moreover this confirm my impression that there are many people around > working independently on similar issues more or less related with what > the CDDs are all about, but without knowing each other. Definitely! My main concern is to fix this in the first place. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Apr 1 02:26:07 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B8xWY-0006m1-00; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 02:26:06 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 63779EA30; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 02:26:07 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from mail.albizi15.biz (host24-203.pool8175.interbusiness.it [81.75.203.24]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9860BEDD3 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 02:25:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from free (host75-148.pool8248.interbusiness.it [82.48.148.75]) by mail.albizi15.biz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D21422F9F for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:20:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by free with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B8yR9-0000RN-00 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:24:35 +0200 To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> <8765ck3bqm.fsf@tin.it> From: Free Ekanayaka Organization: AGNULA MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:24:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Andreas Tille's message of "Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:46:38 +0200 (CEST)") Message-ID: <871xn8125p.fsf@tin.it> User-Agent: T-gnus/6.15.7 (based on Oort Gnus v0.08) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.6 (Marutamachi) APEL/10.6 MULE XEmacs/21.4 (patch 6) (Common Lisp) (i386-debian-linux) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.8 required=4.0 tests=ADDR_FREE,FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_RFCI autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: * Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166651 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 02:26:07 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2019 Lines: 46 >>>>> On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:46:38 +0200 (CEST), Andreas Tille said: Andreas> On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Free Ekanayaka wrote: >> The bottom-up approach you suggest is definitively the way to >> go. Of course that the best suited people to provide the >> knoppix-* packages are the Knoppix team itself. Are they >> already working to something like this? Andreas> When I did a workshop on LinuxTag Karlsruhe last year Andreas> Klaus Knopper was present and regarded it as a really Andreas> cool idea. He would definitely support efforts in this Andreas> direction but he admitted that he does not feel competent Andreas> enough regarding Debian packaging and his time scale does Andreas> not permit to work in this direction. Moreover Fabian Andreas> Franz (who is busy writing the harddisk installer for Andreas> Knoppix and some other Knoppix related stuff) was Andreas> successful in implementing the bottom-up approach for Andreas> PowerPC. BUt this was more or less a design study and Andreas> Fabian told me that he has time constraints to continue Andreas> working on this topic. Andreas> There were some other people interested and did some Andreas> stuff which might be a good start, but all in all it is Andreas> currently not much more than an idea ... We shall start discuss about this both with the knoppix team and here on debian-devel. You already know Klaus Knopper, so it would be great if you could write directly to him, reminding the talk you had and pointing to the Live CD section of the CDD paper. Then we see what happens.. >> Moreover this confirm my impression that there are many people >> around working independently on similar issues more or less >> related with what the CDDs are all about, but without knowing >> each other. Andreas> Definitely! My main concern is to fix this in the first Andreas> place. Yes, I agree. Let's keep it on! Cheers, Free From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Apr 1 03:02:45 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B8y61-0005lN-00; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 03:02:45 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 9C9B8F479; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 03:02:45 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Augsburg.bund.de (augsburg.bund.de [194.95.179.209]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48989F477 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 03:02:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Augsburg.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id LAA12923 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:02:30 +0200 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:01:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building In-Reply-To: <871xn8125p.fsf@tin.it> Message-Id: References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> <8765ck3bqm.fsf@tin.it> <871xn8125p.fsf@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2004 09:02:11.0367 (UTC) FILETIME=[04BDEB70:01C417C8] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166655 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 03:02:45 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 820 Lines: 25 On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Free Ekanayaka wrote: > We shall start discuss about this both with the knoppix team and here > on debian-devel. Well, there was enough discussion on the debian-knoppix list about this. Something has to be *done* now. > You already know Klaus Knopper, so it would be great if you could > write directly to him, Because I know Klaus I know that he will more or less private mails because of time constraints. > reminding the talk you had and pointing to the > Live CD section of the CDD paper. There is nothing real new in the paper which I would not have dicsussed on the mailing list. Perhaps it is a bit more concentrated information ... > Then we see what happens.. I guess it would happen more if we would have some code which could attract interest. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Apr 1 06:29:08 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B91Jj-0005KL-00; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 06:29:07 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id B1AFEF549; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 06:29:05 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp.sierpes48.com (195.Red-80-24-25.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.24.25.195]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E76F535 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 06:28:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from phoebe (phoebe.sierpes48.es [192.168.1.240]) by smtp.sierpes48.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DC51392B for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:28:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from vigu by phoebe with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B91JL-0000lj-00 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:28:43 +0200 Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building From: Javier =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vi=F1uales_Guti=E9rrez?= To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> <20040331210800.GA8646@uv.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1080822522.1936.95.camel@phoebe> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:28:43 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_RFCI autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166680 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 06:29:05 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1238 Lines: 36 El jue, 01-04-2004 a las 07:39, Andreas Tille escribi=F3: > Uhmm, that's not very helpful. Could anybody give them a hint to support= an > international mailing list if they want to work together with the rest of > the world? Please everyone interested in this dscussion (Debian Live-CD && Metadistros way, **in enlish**): There is a new mailing list in english available=20 metadistros-en@listas.hispalinux.es I'm a fast man Andreas :-DD The whole web site of the Metadistros Project is in spanish but, if anyone wants to help in the translation, he would be wellcome. I hope to discuss any metadistros question in this mailing list, and dDeb or CCD, in the mailing list some people hope to use (#237017). Resume: -. Debian derivatives (archive needs) and Custom Debian Distros (products) -> send an email against #237017 -. Metadistros (Live-CD, hard detection, instalation and conf matters), Debian independent -> metadistros-en@listas.hispalinux.es Thank you very much, and a really good job Andreas, really :-))) --=20 Javier Vi=F1uales Guti=E9rrez Ingeniero Industrial - YACO S.L. =20 Albareda 24, 41001 Sevilla - Espa=F1a Tfno: 954293600 FAX: 954210326 GnuPG public key: http://db.debian.org From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Apr 1 07:09:33 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B91wr-0003PS-00; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 07:09:33 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id E7010F5AD; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:09:33 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (unknown [194.95.177.124]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE934F5A8 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:09:13 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i31D9DW25644 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:09:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from localhost) by a4.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a4.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Thu Apr 1 15:09:12 2004 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:08:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building In-Reply-To: <1080822522.1936.95.camel@phoebe> Message-Id: References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> <20040331210800.GA8646@uv.es> <1080822522.1936.95.camel@phoebe> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2004 13:08:53.0846 (UTC) FILETIME=[7BB4F760:01C417EA] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166681 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:09:33 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 963 Lines: 27 On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Javier [ISO-8859-1] Vi=F1uales Guti=E9rrez wrote: > Please everyone interested in this dscussion (Debian Live-CD && > Metadistros way, **in enlish**): > > There is a new mailing list in english available > > metadistros-en@listas.hispalinux.es > > I'm a fast man Andreas :-DD Damn - especially in Spanish time scale ... ;-) I'd suggest you could provide a patch to my article to provide some interesting information about metadistros (including a link to the subscribtion page) - or I could just add 'vigu' to the group of developers of the CDD alioth project if you like to do it yourself. > I hope to discuss any metadistros question in this mailing list, and > dDeb or CCD, in the mailing list some people hope to use (#237017). Regarding to this I've got the hint from listmaster that I should *delay* creating an own list on Alioth - so I guess it is a matter of time when this bug will be fixed. ;-) Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Apr 1 08:36:07 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B93Ic-00030X-00; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 08:36:06 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 6E0EEF5EB; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 08:36:07 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from gandalf.redellipse.net (gandalf.redellipse.net [218.214.6.10]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D283F5E2 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 08:35:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from merlin.redellipse.net (CPE-138-130-39-189.nsw.bigpond.net.au [138.130.39.189]) by gandalf.redellipse.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E5B47BB3 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 00:35:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from titan (unknown [192.168.1.36]) by merlin.redellipse.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A24CB32951 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 00:35:35 +1000 (EST) Received: by titan (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C4403CC501; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 00:31:47 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 00:31:47 +1000 From: Pascal Hakim To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building Message-ID: <20040401143147.GB1873@titan.redellipse.net> References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> <20040331210800.GA8646@uv.es> <1080822522.1936.95.camel@phoebe> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=4.0 tests=NO_DNS_FOR_FROM autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: * Resent-Message-ID: <2_DYcB.A.GH.XjCbAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166691 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 08:36:07 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 715 Lines: 23 On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 03:08:36PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote: > > I hope to discuss any metadistros question in this mailing list, and > > dDeb or CCD, in the mailing list some people hope to use (#237017). > Regarding to this I've got the hint from listmaster that I should > *delay* creating an own list on Alioth - so I guess it is a > matter of time when this bug will be fixed. ;-) It was created a few hours ago. The website's caught up, but my test email was stuck in my mail queue. Give it 20 minutes, and it should all be there. I'll only close the bug when it's all working. Cheers, Pasc -- Pascal Hakim I come from the land down-under Where the beer does flow and men chunder -- Men at Work From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Apr 1 09:36:22 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B94Ew-0007py-00; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 09:36:22 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 54C82E9AC; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:36:23 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from smtp.sierpes48.com (195.Red-80-24-25.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.24.25.195]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D45E933 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:36:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from phoebe (phoebe.sierpes48.es [192.168.1.240]) by smtp.sierpes48.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D351392A for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 17:36:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from vigu by phoebe with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1B94EZ-0001pb-00 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:35:59 +0200 Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building From: Javier =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vi=F1uales_Guti=E9rrez?= To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org In-Reply-To: References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> <20040331210800.GA8646@uv.es> <1080822522.1936.95.camel@phoebe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1080833759.1936.121.camel@phoebe> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:35:59 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER,RCVD_IN_RFCI autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <4CzdTB.A.-rE.2bDbAB@murphy> Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166693 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:36:23 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 1109 Lines: 33 El jue, 01-04-2004 a las 15:08, Andreas Tille escribi=F3: > > I'm a fast man Andreas :-DD > Damn - especially in Spanish time scale ... ;-) 8-/ X_D %-P > I'd suggest you could provide a patch to my article to provide some > interesting information about metadistros (including a link to the > subscribtion page) - or I could just add 'vigu' to the group of > developers of the CDD alioth project if you like to do it yourself. Add me to the Alioth project please, it'll be easer for all of us. > > I hope to discuss any metadistros question in this mailing list, and > > dDeb or CCD, in the mailing list some people hope to use (#237017). > Regarding to this I've got the hint from listmaster that I should > *delay* creating an own list on Alioth - so I guess it is a > matter of time when this bug will be fixed. ;-) Add me to the alioth project please, it'll be easer for you and me. Thank you. --=20 Javier Vi=F1uales Guti=E9rrez Ingeniero Industrial - YACO S.L. =20 Albareda 24, 41001 Sevilla - Espa=F1a Tfno: 954293600 FAX: 954210326 GnuPG public key: http://db.debian.org From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Apr 1 13:51:31 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B98Dr-0001UP-00; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:51:31 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 861C3EB59; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:51:30 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from fw-berlin.bund.de (unknown [194.95.177.124]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E59EEA6F for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:50:47 -0600 (CST) Received: by fw-berlin.bund.de (8.11.6p2G/8.11.6) id i31Jogh25223 for debian-devel@lists.debian.org; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:50:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from localhost) by a4.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de (MSCAN) id 3/a4.fw.bln.ivbb.bund.de/smtp-gw/mscan; Thu Apr 1 21:50:42 2004 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:50:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building In-Reply-To: <1080833759.1936.121.camel@phoebe> Message-Id: References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> <20040331210800.GA8646@uv.es> <1080822522.1936.95.camel@phoebe> <1080833759.1936.121.camel@phoebe> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2004 19:50:36.0217 (UTC) FILETIME=[99D6EA90:01C41822] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: <6hDzlB.A.O7F.BLHbAB@murphy> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166715 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:51:30 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 181 Lines: 9 On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Javier [ISO-8859-1] Vi=F1uales Guti=E9rrez wrote: > Add me to the Alioth project please, it'll be easer for all of us. Done. Kind regards Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Thu Apr 1 13:59:24 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B98LT-0002en-00; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:59:23 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id 02681EC37; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:59:23 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from Ulm.bund.de (ulm.bund.de [194.95.179.208]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B429E8FF for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:59:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by Ulm.bund.de (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id VAA31229 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:59:06 +0200 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:58:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Tille X-X-Sender: tillea@wr-linux02.rki.ivbb.bund.de Cc: Debian Developers Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building In-Reply-To: <20040401143147.GB1873@titan.redellipse.net> Message-Id: References: <20040331105454.G16763@saruman.uio.no> <87zn9wap09.fsf@tin.it> <20040331210800.GA8646@uv.es> <1080822522.1936.95.camel@phoebe> <20040401143147.GB1873@titan.redellipse.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2004 19:58:54.0739 (UTC) FILETIME=[C2FB5630:01C41823] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=LDOSUBSCRIBER autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166718 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:59:23 -0600 (CST) Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 486 Lines: 14 On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Pascal Hakim wrote: > It was created a few hours ago. The website's caught up, but my > test email was stuck in my mail queue. Give it 20 minutes, and it should > all be there. Many thanks. I just filled the subscribe form and forewarded some of the mails from debian-devel which are not yet answered here and should be archived in the right place. > I'll only close the bug when it's all working. Thanks for your work for lists.debian.org Andreas. From list@murphy.debian.org Fri Apr 2 02:43:52 2004 Return-path: Received: from murphy.debian.org [146.82.138.6] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian)) id 1B9KHI-000535-00; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:43:52 -0600 Received: by murphy.debian.org (Postfix, from userid 38) id F235BEEB9; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 02:43:52 -0600 (CST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Received: from amayita.com (217.Red-217-126-176.pooles.rima-tde.net [217.126.176.217]) by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9790EEB4 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 02:43:45 -0600 (CST) Received: by amayita.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1A749890163; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 10:43:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 10:43:46 +0200 From: Amaya To: Debian Developers Cc: Roberto Santos Subject: Re: [custom] Updated docs regarding meta package building Message-ID: <20040402084346.GJ6486@aenima> Mail-Followup-To: Debian Developers , Roberto Santos References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: Debian - http://www.debian.org/ X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.4-1-k7 X-Uptime: 2 days X-No-CC: Do not Cc me to mailing list posts unless you really have to User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 (2004-01-11) on murphy.debian.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63-lists.debian.org_2004_03_24_1 X-Spam-Level: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166788 X-Loop: debian-devel@lists.debian.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-devel-request@lists.debian.org Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 02:43:52 -0600 (CST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Bcc: Delivered-To: joy-list-archive@debian.org Content-Length: 2777 Lines: 64 Regarding this subject, there's going to be a Conference at Valencia, Spain on May 6th, 7th and 8th, and I am in charge of making a list of all the people involved, interested or working on the subject (especially Debian Developers, or NM). Speaking Spanish is a plus, too. I will be the public relations with all the "Experts" (that's what they call you in the press release, and I think they fall short ;-) ). I will be your interface to the organizers. And I will be pleased and honoured to try to do my best at it. The press release for the conference (Spanish only, sorry) is at: http://es.news.yahoo.com/040324/4/3bhlo.html (Translations to English more than wellcome). This list I am making is intended to help organizers priorize sponsorship for travel and hosting expenses. And one big part of the event is a workshop on Custom Debian Based Distros.=20 As many of you are already aware of, there are several regional Debian Based Distros being developed and deployed by the Spanish Public Administration. These are Linex, Guadalinex, Lliurex and Max, AFAIK). Many more regions are starting their own CDBD.=20 Our next battle is Debian-Lex and Debian-Med. Debian-Edu is also still *very* interesting to us. I believe debian-desktop efforts are of much interest too. So, if you either are a Debian Developer, in NM, speak or are Spanish, are involved in one of the mentioned projects, please send me an email, privately so as not to make noise on this list. If you are a DD, please gpg-sign your email. I need certain information that will be kept private at all times and will only be used in order to design the budget, which is: - Full Name=20 - City of origin=20 - Project you are involved with, regarding the concerns detailed above In case you know of someone who should be there, but hasn't read this announcement, please feel free to forward. Once the budget for sponsorship is closed, people will start receiving formal invitations. On a side note, I must say Valencia is a pretty, sunny, close to the beach, and hospitable. It's not the caribean, though, but a very nice place anyway. The the local cousine is excellent. Spanish people is usually loud and friendly, and the event will very likely be a nice experience.=20 So send out those emails, and don't expect an answer from me real soon. But you will know your application result in due time.=20 Thanks to all of you for making the best distro that allows me to proudly advocate/evangelize my government with/about, and excuse my excited, sometmes wrong English :-) --=20 .''`. Yo tambi=E9n estaba en esos trenes. I was also on those trains =20 : :' : =20 `. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.6.4 Ext3) =20 `- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com