Debconf Venue Decision 2006-07-10

* IRC log started on Mon Jul 10 19:19:34 2006
* * LOG is set to on
* Topic for #debconf-team: meeting is scheduled to be here today - at 18:30 UTC | have some fun and rest until then
* Topic for #debconf-team set by Ganneff!~joerg@ganneff.netop.oftc.net on Mon Jul 10 17:48:26 2006
* Users on #debconf-team: slef sapphire_sjj dzenita_sjj steveq joeyh elvir_sjj fil rleigh Tincho Igloo ez jcristau GyrosGeier incase psn EmxBA_sjj fjp hermanr_ Manoj cmot danielsan amar_sjj gwolf adioe3_sjj vedran_sjj faw Tulitar baruch geser [javamaniac] formorer streuner maxx WombleToo avdwoude luk_ buffoon XentoniX ana Mithrandir anibal__ cpt_nemo Womble2 anibal alphascorpii mooch agi InfraRed mjg59 tarzeau squat hajvan paravoid mlt stockholm azeem codebreaker stargirl abi Jon jvw
* Users on #debconf-team: blarson davewatson h01ger wookey willy Dougie_uk Noodles weasel Sledge Q_ bdale HE helix moray pixie^ broonie pixie aj DaCa nattie Clint Ganneff luciano sTone_heAd coleSLAW mhy Maulkin Tolimar kevc
* amaya (~amaya@84.77.112.162) has joined channel #debconf-team
<Q_> Is there a schedule for the meeting somewhere?
<Ganneff> there is no good meeting anyways anymore.
<Clint> has a decision been made yet?
<gwolf> Clint: Yup. We go to Cyprus.
<mooch> Clint: the meeting starts in 5 mins
<mooch> "are we there yet?"
<mooch> "are we there yet?"
<mooch> "are we there yet?"
<pixie> Haha
<Clint> yay, cyprus
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* Hydroxide (user@Hydroxide.netrep.oftc.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
<slef> Q_: http://people.debian.org/~terpstra/message/20060710.145008.7be5a96f.en.html
<HE> gwolf: Cyprus sounds nice. My sister lives nearby, so I could visit her.
<slef> under "So, where to from here?
<kevc> hmmm...
<kevc> the clock on this system is out :(
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* weasel watches the gavel
* moray reappears full
* sapphire_sjj awaits ...
* Sledge grabs food
* kevc drinks coffee
* adioe3_sjj grabs the popcorn
* maxx pushes weasel closer to the gavel
* slef continues watching itv4
<Q_> Hmm.
<Maulkin> Lo
* weasel bangs the gavel on maxx's head
<hermanr_> "We will, we will rock you!"
* sfr (elspeth@miranda.sommitrealweird.co.uk) has joined channel #debconf-team
<incase> Though the debate hasn't yet started, could someone from the EDI team clarify the question I intended to post to debconf-team@l.d.o this afternoon on wether handicapped people will stay at the same hotel/venue as the other devs?
<maxx> *auch* not again! we're not in #oftc-staff
* Amila_sjj (~bono@217.199.132.234) has joined channel #debconf-team
* slef waves hello at sfr
<kevc> incase: the venues are all accessible
* sfr wavesback at slef
<pixie> incase: From the hotels we looked at,/I can remember, yes
* adioe3_sjj wonders when will it start?
<moray> kevc: I think incase is asking about the hostels
<kevc> someone else will need to say regarding accomodation
<weasel> aj: .
<moray> kevc: not all the hostels are accessible, it depends which we use
* h01ger waves
<InfraRed2> smartcity is full disabled accessable
<moray> people in wheelchairs would stay in a hotel where some other people were staying though, not on their own
<InfraRed2> i saw the floor plans
* sfr is now known as sfr_uk
* Maulkin pings aj: and Sledge
* Jon is now known as Jon_uk
<incase> Fine, it would be a major downside to me if handicapped needed to go to another ho(s)tel than the other devs.
<mooch> incase: they cannot use the hostals...
* slef raps Maulkin across the kneecaps
<Maulkin> ?
<moray> mooch: as infraRed just said, they can use some of them
<fjp> They probably have a pre-meeting meeting...
<mooch> incase: but other DDs will be there...
<Jon_uk> heh
<mooch> aj: ping
<mooch> Sledge: ping
<sfr_uk> incase: i'm a wheelchair user, and i have no intention of being stuck somewhere on my own
* colin (~colin@spc2-lanc2-0-0-cust10.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) has joined channel #debconf-team
* Sledge is here
<maxx> mooch: *shhhhhh* #debian-cabal is working on the decision :P
<Sledge> just trying to find aj
<Jon_uk> evening Sledge
* Users on #debconf-team: colin Amila_sjj sfr_uk tech InfraRed2 Hydroxide [BA]not_now_john amaya slef sapphire_sjj dzenita_sjj steveq joeyh elvir_sjj fil rleigh Tincho Igloo ez_sjj jcristau GyrosGeier incase psn EmxBA_sjj fjp hermanr_ Manoj cmot danielsan amar_sjj gwolf adioe3_sjj vedran_sjj faw Tulitar baruch geser [javamaniac] formorer streuner maxx WombleToo avdwoude luk_ buffoon XentoniX ana Mithrandir anibal__ cpt_nemo Womble2 anibal alphascorpii mooch agi InfraRed mjg59 tarzeau
* Users on #debconf-team: squat hajvan paravoid mlt stockholm azeem codebreaker stargirl abi Jon_uk jvw blarson davewatson h01ger wookey willy Dougie_uk Noodles weasel Sledge Q_ bdale HE helix moray pixie^ broonie pixie aj DaCa nattie Clint Ganneff luciano sTone_heAd coleSLAW mhy Maulkin Tolimar kevc
<Tolimar> maxx: No it isn't. Everyone is idling there.
<mooch> good
<Sledge> sorry for the delay...
<maxx> Tolimar: isn't that the point?
<slef> Why is no-one labelled _edi?
<bdale> Sledge: he may well have fallen asleep?
* InfraRed2 is now known as InfraRed_EDI
<helix> call him
<Maulkin> slef: We can't be bothered?
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<GyrosGeier> I thought the cabal met in #handwaving
* bdale looks at gworldclock...
<Sledge> bdale: that's what I'm worrying, yes
<Jon_uk> slef: the convention in the last meeting was _uk for the edinburgh bid
<maxx> we know them by know, I don't think that ridicculos nickchangeing is necessary anymore...
<sfr_uk> slef: we were asked to label _uk
<slef> Maulkin: it would help make the log clearer.
<moray> slef: do we need to be? last time I think that just made things more confrontational
<maxx> 2c
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* Mode change "+o gwolf" on channel #debconf-team by Ganneff
<Jon_uk> maxx: I think it helps to see at-a-glance if someone is on one of the teams or not
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<helix> what if we're just cheerleading for one side?
<Jon_uk> I'll go with whatever the chairs suggest for this one
<moray> I also was under the impression this meeting was meant to discuss more than just a fight between two venues
* maher_ is now known as maher_sjj
<slef> Jon_uk: that seems inaccurate, as moray pointed out on-list that Edinburgh's not London.
<Ganneff> so, to summarise feelings from at least me and gwolf before the "meeting" starts: now with the removed delegation debconf is back to his old state, ie no debian project anymore. so - let those who do the work decide and move on with this and stop the farce...
<h01ger> Sledge, are u calling aj now ? wow we gonna start this?
<Jon_uk> slef: yup, and London is not Edinburgh, but both are UK
* colin is now known as Colin_uk
* Clint is now known as Clint_cyprus
<h01ger> s/wow/now/
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* Signoff: EmxBA_sjj (Read error: Operation timed out)
<gwolf> Yup. There might be no cabal anymore, but that's just good news ;-)
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<Sledge> h01ger: I'm just trying to raise him now
<Ganneff> Sledge: see your query please
<gwolf> ...Shit, I get a "now you" message from ganneff ;-)
* Signoff: tech (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
<Sledge> if no answer, we'll start without him in a couple of minutes
<h01ger> let's say at 20:45?
* Clint_cyprus is now known as Clint
<Tolimar> Sledge: Couldn't we start with the meeting without aj? I guess we could try to discuss ""what are the important issues in running a DebConf"; if he wakes up, he can start ;)
<gwolf> Ok... Basically, we do feel most of the team that has worked towards Debconf year after year is _really_ not happy with the way this is going.
* kaol (~kari@sammakko.yok.utu.fi) has joined channel #debconf-team
<Q_> h01ger: 18:45 UTC you mean.
<h01ger> this is useless waiting and i could finish a important mail i didnt do all day...
<h01ger> Q_, sure
<Ganneff> h01ger: read your query
<h01ger> sorry for the eurocentrism
<Sledge> please, 18:45 UTC
<slef> Ganneff: in that case, just make the decision and make it happen. He who does wins, as the do-ocrats say.
<gwolf> Debconf has never been an official Debian project, and we now know why - Because it seems it works out when done by a small group that _knows_ _what_ _to_ _do_
<maxx> just tell us which coin it was that has been throwsn
* h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "meeting has been moved a little bit to 18:45 UTC"
* kevc_uk notes he doesn't want to get involved in whether debconf is part of debian or not
<gwolf> I don't want to dismiss everybody who is interested in joining the work...
<bdale> gwolf: that doesn't actually differentiate it from most Debian sub-projects, though
<maxx> so we can blame it on the right national bank
<gwolf> But really, I do trust completely what I have read from the rest of our team...
<h01ger> gwolf, with that attitude you do (dismiss me at least)
<bdale> almost everything good gets done when a small group that knows what to do just does it...
<gwolf> And we reached a stupid point where all of the people that went to visit the proposed venues, in private or in public, have said they don't want to go on with this
<Ganneff> h01ger: no. now without delegation we want a (productive) meeting of all those that actually work on a debconf
<Ganneff> and as such know what to do.
<gwolf> h01ger: I was telling them just before that you were the one _very_ important missing piece :)
* marga (~marga@200.89.185.29) has joined channel #debconf-team
<marga> Hi. Sorry for not being here, I had a power outage.
<gwolf> The thing is, we now have a couple dozens people here trying to decide on something that hsould already have been decided...
<helix> it's ok, it hasn't started yet...
<maxx> marga: 18:45 UTC now
<gwolf> And creating a _very_ uncomfortable climate
<stockholm> hi
<gwolf> So... Well, it has landed on my hands, as the others are unable to participate
* Maulkin hugs marga
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<gwolf> Ok, we now have Ganneff, stockholm, marga, h01ger, Tolimar, Maulkin and me looking at this :)
<gwolf> I no longer feel _that_ lonely
<Hydroxide> gwolf: well, doing the meeting in private excludes all the people who attend the conference who aren't on the orga team, and the attendees should have some input too
* h01ger is not interested in being part of a cabal. and fwiw i share tolimars feeling he outlined in his latest mail.
<bdale> gwolf: the other perspective, of course, is that there wouldn't be dozens of people here trying to make a decision if a decision had already been taken. right?
<HE> Ganneff,gwolf: So what you are actually telling us is that this meeting isn't needed and other people will decide?
<Ganneff> h01ger: this is not cabal, this is the people working on debconf.
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<Tolimar> okay, I'm off.
<gwolf> Hydroxide: Right. But sometimes, a decision must be taken, end of story. It will always piss some people off.
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<Maulkin> As a side note, I'm not going to add in any specific input as to the choice of venue, as I'm unbiased.
<h01ger> Ganneff, ic. thank for telling me :(
<Q_> So, from what I understand, we don't actually need aj or Sledge?
<mooch> gwolf: thanks
<gwolf> bdale: Well, yes, but it could not be taken because of that!
<Ganneff> HE: no, this channel should decide. those that are usually working on debconf.
<bdale> I've found the whole sequence of events since the venue meeting at dc6 really amazing and disappointing. I'm hoping we can put that all behind us, figure out a good choice, and move forward together from here.
<mjg59> Maulkin: Unbiased, or biased?
<Ganneff> Q_: yes, thats what we want. to take it back to the debconf team.
<Maulkin> mjg59: Sorry, yes, biased :)
<HE> Ganneff: Without the dozens of people who haven't done so in the past, but have joined for the discussion announced about this?
<Hydroxide> gwolf: I agree it should have been decided a while ago
<InfraRed_uk> has the meeting started?
* Maulkin nods at bdale
<gwolf> HE: I'm telling that some people in the list I just gave (sorry for uncompleteness, shit), are just throwing the towel
<h01ger> InfraRed, no
<h01ger> InfraRed, no
<h01ger> InfraRed, no
* sladen_uk is biased, but neutral regarding the result.
* h01ger sighs
<Jon_uk> InfraRed_uk: starts at :45
<gwolf> because they (and I include myself in this) really don't agree with the way this is going.
<InfraRed_uk> it .45 according to my watch :(
<mooch> 21:43 according to pool.ntp.org
<h01ger> a meeting needs moderation, esp. such a big one. without moderators its silly to start.
<kevc_uk> InfraRed_uk: ntp disagrees
<Hydroxide> :44 here
<Q_> InfraRed: Then it's off by atleast 1 minute.
<psn_uk> Jon_uk: starts when Aj shows up
<gwolf> ok, so, please the more eloquent and decided people...
<Sledge> no sign of aj anywhere that I can find
<marga> h01ger: aren't you the moderator?
* [BA]not_now_john is now known as not_now_john_sjj
<gwolf> Ganneff, stockholm... Please speak
<Sledge> and he doesn't have a phone number in db.d.o
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<Jon_uk> win move 2
<gwolf> h01ger: please do so as well
<Ganneff> so. lets start the meeting of the team.
<h01ger> marga, i was asked to do it and then asked not to do it...
<helix> I have his number but my mobile is at home, of course
<marga> h01ger: ok.
<helix> Sledge: one moment, actually..
<stockholm> gwolf: i am not sure what to say. i wrote to team recently with my thoughts
<h01ger> stockholm, where?
<Sledge> helix: he'll have to catch up
<stockholm> h01ger: -team
<Ganneff> stockholm: a minute ago.
* Hydroxide thought Sledge and aj were running this meeting, or Sledge alone in the absence of aj
<Maulkin> Is everyone happy with h01ger moderating?
<gwolf> stockholm: Ok. You said "I give up", in short words. But here I want to pledge for things to run as they used to
<sladen_uk> Jon_uk: /set actlist_moves true
<Ganneff> Hydroxide: you missed a part of backlog.
<Maulkin> Or what?
<gwolf> You know, if you feel that AJ is pushing for the wrong side, PUSH BACK
<InfraRed_uk> no objections here
* Mode change "+o h01ger" on channel #debconf-team by ChanServ
<stockholm> gwolf: i am listening and watch how it turns out.
<Ganneff> Hydroxide: we are just taking the force back into the teams (not delegates) hands
<Maulkin> There you go h01ger
<mjg59> "wrong side"?
<gwolf> stockholm: The thing is that if you and we all listen, nothing will "just happen"
* h01ger doesnt think its useful to start now. really. lets wait for aj, or rather try to reach him again. its silly to start something now and in 15min when he arrives go back orsideways or whatever
<marga> I'm happy with h01ger moderating.
* amaya too
<sladen_uk> gwolf: and if we all bitch, nothing will happen and everyone will be annoyed with each other aswell
<moray> bdale, Sledge: there seem to be at least two meetings trying to happen here now, maybe they should be split
<stockholm> gwolf: well, i am interesting to hear from e.g. bdale what he thinks. and aj said he asked many people for advice.
* h01ger wonders what topic or order or whatever he should moderate.
<stockholm> i see him taking debconf to some new form and wants to make it a payed conf.
* kevc_uk is in agreement with moray
<Hydroxide> Ganneff: yeah, as moray said, the team was planning a meeting here, and the DPL/Sledge were planning a meeting here
<stockholm> i wonder how people think about that
<h01ger> could we please postpone the start another 15min?
<amaya> is the voicing/unvoicing h01ger proposed doable atm?
<maxx> h01ger: reboot?
<gwolf> Ok. And I don't know what to do, but am angry at what I saw in the last 20 minutes :-/
<bdale> moray: based on aj's email, I was assuming he and Sledge would call the meeting to order. since aj is not here, perhaps he fell asleep (it is something like 04:30 local for him), I'm not sure what to expect.
<Ganneff> h01ger: why?
<h01ger> maxx, yes! that always help
<Sledge> right
<Sledge> let's start
<helix> hum
<Sledge> item 1
<h01ger> Sledge, do you have a agenda somewhere?
<Sledge> what are the priorities for debconf?
<Sledge> h01ger: aj's mail
<h01ger> Sledge, do you want to moderate?
<bdale> stockholm: I think you're mis-interpreting aj, and/or being intentionally divisive with that sort of question
<Ganneff> wrong tiopic. this meeting is about dc7 location.
<Q_> Sledge: So, now you're moderating?
<Sledge> Q_: I guess so
<Maulkin> Any objections to Sledge moderating please?
<Ganneff> yes
* h01ger thinks that was quite a long mail for a agenda, but if Sledge can handle this
<Ganneff> i object to sledge and aj
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<stockholm> bdale: i dont try to divisive
<stockholm> what ever that means (c:
<marga> h01ger is moderating. We were going to decide about dc7.
<bdale> stockholm: creating a division
<Ganneff> the nmeeting is simple: decide if its EDI or SJJ. nothing else, thats enough todo
<stockholm> bdale: as in distracting from the problem at hand?
<marga> Sledge: I really like you... But please don't take over our meeting.
<jvw> stockholm: can you please state your opinion as de-facto lead debconf org, who should be moderating and chairing this meeting now?
<Ganneff> h01ger: could you please start with this?
<h01ger> if i am moderating i would like to tell Ganneff to stop this and that we follow Sledges agenda
<jvw> stockholm: we seem to have disagreement
<stockholm> jvw: aj undelegated me.
<bdale> stockholm: as in forcing people to decide between black and white when the answer is probably gray
<Ganneff> h01ger: in that case you dont want me to work for debconf anymore
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<stockholm> bdale: ah. right, could be.
<jvw> stockholm: yes, but that's not relevant about this channel
<Sledge> do people want to have a productive discussion, or should we give up now?
<GyrosGeier> should I moderate?
<Ganneff> Sledge: i would like if you give up and we go on.
<GyrosGeier> s/I /&try to /
<stockholm> GyrosGeier: you seem to be qualified. (c:
* fil is now known as fil_uk
<jvw> Let's get this meeting started, and let's let Sledge moderate this, and chair this -- as per AJ's mail
<marga> Sledge: I do want a productive discussion. I don't think that stating priorities about debconf is a productive discussion.
<Hydroxide> Ganneff: you're being very uncompromising, and compromise is what is needed here from all parties
<jvw> lacking aj himself
<h01ger> Ganneff, if you take it like this, i'm really sorry but i do want to follow ajs proposal - it doesnt make sense to throw everything over again now
<marga> GyrosGeier: we have too many volunteers for moderation.
<Sledge> I'll take it
<Ganneff> h01ger: the thing is easy. we just needed to decide about the location. now aj and sledge want to change the whole thing
<maxx> no, a compromise is a lose-lose situation. a solution is what is needed
<h01ger> Ganneff, if you only want to decide about the location, i think Tolimar and me are out as well.
<GyrosGeier> marga, the point is that I'm totally neutral as I haven't followed any discussion lately
<moray> Ganneff: how can you claim to have that meeting, aftr e.g. stockholm's last mail?
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<Sledge> POINT ONE
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<stockholm> i would support sleges moderation
<Sledge> priorities
<Sledge> one at a time, PLEASE
* Signoff: InfraRed_uk (Read error: Operation timed out)
<stockholm> (what about those in the checklist, that we agreed on?)
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<Sledge> what precisely are the priorities that we should be using in deciding?
<Sledge> stockholm: good point
<vedran_sjj> I basically agree with bdales priority list
* h01ger really thinks about following his proposal about +m and voice for the team and local leaders..
<Sledge> has everybody ready bdale's list?
<Maulkin> ** minutes Sledge asks for priorities that we should be using in deciding the location for debconf.
<slef> Where's bdale's list?
<Sledge> h01ger: please go ahead and do that
<Maulkin> slef: On the -team mailing list
<slef> h01ger--
* h01ger explains to the others that Maulkin just toke a note for the minutes
<marga> http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060705.181923.927c1bfa.en.html
* h01ger is happy about GyrosGeier and does as planned
<Jon_uk> marga: thanks
<marga> I think Bdale's priorities are quite alright.
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* jvw has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "Meeting in progress || Sledge chairs || Topic 1: What are the priorities"
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<Sledge> any objections to any of those items?
<moray> I haven't thought deeply about the ordering, but I felt I agreed with bdale's list when I read it
<Sledge> anythings that should be added?
* Signoff: dzenita_sjj (Quit: Ex-Chat)
<stockholm> the priorities are in a differnet form at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckListhttp://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckList
* Mode change "+v faw" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
<stockholm> sorry, bad paste
* h01ger wonders who else
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<stockholm> http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckList
<stockholm> font size indicates the importance
<marga> I think it lacks something about accessibility, but the rest really seems to reflect my thoughts... Although I'd probably go with a different order.
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<h01ger> vedran_sjj asked me to give him voice in case sapphire_sjj has connectifity probs
<marga> <slef> there's nothing about orga on that list, whereas it seems the problems debconf has worst today are orga
<bdale> h01ger: Sledge should have voice?
* Signoff: sapphire_sjj (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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<h01ger> sorry Sledge, i thought i gave it to you first
<Sledge> h01ger: fine
<Sledge> marga: do you mean central orga, or local orga?
* Mode change "+v Tolimar" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
<marga> It was slef, but I think he means local.
<bdale> marga: when I wrote that email, I was trying to "stay above" what I knew of the issues in the orga team, and I certainly don't know all of the issues in the team regardless
* h01ger didnt see Tolimar coming back
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<Sledge> marga: ah, ok
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<Sledge> ok, that's a fair enough addition
<marga> So, having a strong, mature, experienced local team is a priority. An important one.
<bdale> I easily agree with that
<Sledge> ok, where does it fit in the list?
<bdale> I'd place it after affordable and the trappings of a good working environment, but ahead of almost everything else
<Sledge> that matches my own idea; anybody else?
<gwolf> Ok, so we go back to the beginning :-/ Sorry, I cannot skip the point that I'm angry - we are going over the same points over and over!
* sapphire is now known as sapphire_sjj
* Maulkin agrees
<Ganneff> yes. its useless
<gwolf> Ordering again the priorities is useless.
<Maulkin> (with bdale's point)
<gwolf> We have went over them a hundred times.
<Ganneff> thats what you get when you let those people run it.
<marga> Ok. Priorities done.
<marga> Let's move on.
<stockholm> Ganneff: dont do this, it does not help currently
* h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "Meeting in progress || Sledge chairs || Topic 1: What are the priorities | /msg h01ger for voice in case you have been involved in debconf-orga or have a question | contribution"
<Sledge> ok, it seems we're happy enough with the ordering
<Sledge> which makes the priorities:
<h01ger> the meeting ordering ?
<Sledge> "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
<Sledge> good working spaces
<Sledge> strong, mature, experienced local team
<Sledge> excellant network connectivity
<Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
<Sledge> suitabile housing in close proximity
<Sledge> presentation facilities
<Sledge> travel logistics
<Sledge> does that work for people?
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<stockholm> i would move up the local team, actuallz.
<Sledge> stockholm: to which position?
<marga> accesibility is soft of missing, although it's more like a general thing.
<bdale> stockholm: still after affordable, or before?
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<stockholm> 2nd
* h01ger thinks the whole debconf-orga-lead topic should be moved up. or at least be present. maybe its good to have it in the end, or maybe not
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<Maulkin> marga: I think that can be derived from the otehr items :)
<bdale> marga: at least in my part of the world, it is mostly taken as a given part of the context. but I am certainly perfectly ok with it being an explicit priority.
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* h01ger thinks bith venues are sufficiently accessible. Ganneff, otavio (is not here..) ?
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<gwolf> bdale: This time we failed in that regard because it was not such a given :)
<Sledge> ok, let's add accessibility to make it clear
<bdale> marga: however, in practical terms, it doesn't look like accessibility is a significant differentiator between the two proposals for dc7
<bdale> gwolf: good point
<Ganneff> h01ger: SJJ has advantages
<marga> bdale: no, I know.
<Ganneff> h01ger: but EDI also, depends where you look
<Ganneff> both are good
<Sledge> accessibility priority level?
<h01ger> Ganneff, ok. but do we need this as a topic?
<gwolf> they are quite leveled, so.. :)
<Ganneff> no.
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<Ganneff> both are fine vor debconf.
<h01ger> good
<stockholm> i would give it level 7 or so
<stockholm> but in this caes it does not matter
<bdale> Sledge: it seems like the important thing is for it to be on the list so it isn't forgotten, not so much where it is on the list
<Sledge> ok, let's just add it to the list
<h01ger> is this thetopic list or the priorities?
<Maulkin> Does this need quickly wiki-ing?
<h01ger> Maulkin, please do create a topic wiki page
<Maulkin> kk
<bdale> h01ger: the priorities. I think the /topic is fine
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<Sledge> list by my reckoning is now:
<Sledge> "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
<Sledge> strong, mature, experienced local team
<Sledge> good working spaces
<Sledge> excellant network connectivity
<Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
<Sledge> suitabile housing in close proximity
<Sledge> presentation facilities
<Sledge> travel logistics
<Sledge> accessibility
<Sledge> anything more/less?
<h01ger> bdale, the topics of this meeting i ment. not the /topic :)
<h01ger> so this is priorities?
<stockholm> what about continuity?
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<stockholm> i think it is important for a complex thing like debconf
<Sledge> stockholm: is that actually a separate priority, or just part of the background organisation?
<Tolimar> stockholm: what do you mean by "continuity"? (I know what the word means, but in this context of venue decission I don't understand what you mean.)
<stockholm> Sledge: i think it should be considered
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<stockholm> Tolimar: if you change too many factors at once in a conplex system you certainly have a uncontroled state.
<marga> stockholm: I think we are stating the priorities about choosing a location, not about what the team has to do better.
<Tolimar> stockholm: Ah, okay. Thanks.
<stockholm> Tolimar: continuity means that it location is not radically different to everthing before, which invalidates what we know how a debconf works
<Maulkin> http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList
<aj> (so, apparently it took me 1h30 to realise that alarm meant "wake up"... 4:30am meetings are teh suck)
<bdale> stockholm: hrm. we've had some pretty large differences in the venues to date, though, haven't we?
* h01ger waves to aj - good morning :)
<bdale> aj: caffeine is good
<Maulkin> ** minutes a list of priorites exists at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList
<h01ger> aj, we have a list of priorities for choosing the venue, but no real agenda for this meeting.
<moray> can we pause a couple of minutes for aj to read scrollback and chime in?
<stockholm> bdale: actually they were similar to some degree.
<gwolf> aj: All my respect for coming out of bed that early :)
* h01ger says yes to moray
<h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
<h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
<h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
<h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
<h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
<h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
<bdale> stockholm: true enough
<Maulkin> ** minutes - general - both venues seem approx equal in accessability fronts, it: both acceptable.
<h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
<h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
<h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
<h01ger> nuff said?
<marga> Pause, but could we please be told what's going to follow, please?
<h01ger> or do i need to take voices away? :)
<h01ger> marga, discussing the agenda of this meeting?!
<stockholm> will aj beep once he is done?
<h01ger> 19:20 is bit enough?
<h01ger> beep even
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<aj> beep?
<stockholm> visual bell.
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<aj> xxx ?
<moray> aj: do you have anything to say about your intentions for this meeting, etc., before it re-starts?
<marga> So, the next step is compare the venues according to the priority list?
<h01ger> .oO( oh well... me thinks other people might be afk, but... it started already )
* h01ger is ok with it
<marga> h01ger: I'm just asking.
* h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "/topic make a agenda | /msg h01ger for voice in case you have been involved in debconf-orga or have a question or contribution | join #debconf-team-discuss "
<h01ger> marga, np
<h01ger> aj, please let us come up with an agenda first
<aj> okay, so we still have UK and SJJ people around right?
<Maulkin> aj: Yes
<sapphire_sjj> yes
<aj> i see moray (but no moray_uk...)
<vedran_sjj> yes
<h01ger> aj, so two topics like in your mail or what?
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<aj> so, what i thought (back when i was last awake...) would be interesting, would be seeing what the SJJ thought EDI's strenghts were (the areas in whcih they'd have the most problems matching or beating) that matter for debian, and vice-versa; and seeing what SJJ and EDI thought there own weaknesses were?
<bdale> oops, f'ing mouse
<Maulkin> :)
<Sledge> bdale: doh! :-)
<vedran_sjj> ok should I go?
<h01ger> aj, agenda first. otherwise... its stupid
* h01ger really really wants clearness on the agenda
* h01ger really really wants clearness on the agenda
<aj> moray, sapphire_sjj: are you happy to do that in a few minutes?
<sapphire_sjj> aj, vedran_sjj will be our speaker
<stockholm> will there be a "native speaker" bonus?
<Sledge> sapphire_sjj: ok, cool
<h01ger> aj, if you take over, please say so, dont just do it :(
* h01ger shuts up
<aj> sapphire_sjj: oh, okay, thanks
<aj> vedran_sjj, moray: are you happy to do that in a few minutes?
<Maulkin> ** minutes <+aj> so, what i thought (back when i was last awake...) would be interesting, would be seeing what the SJJ thought EDI's strenghts were (the areas in whcih they'd have the most problems matching or beating) that matter for debian, and vice-versa; and seeing what SJJ and EDI thought there own weaknesses were?
<Maulkin> ** minutes vedran_sjj and moray representing
<stockholm> why is this better then comparing according priorities?
<marga> I think it might be interesting, but are we doing the comparison against priorities or not?
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<gwolf> because it takes longer and gets us back to the same points again?
<aj> sigh
<bdale> if the two teams are willing and are honest about it, we could learn something about each proposal
<stockholm> aj: i believe there might be good reasons. i just dont see them yet
* h01ger wanted to suggest stockholm and gwolf to follow the agenda. so i think i will tell aj again to first discuss the agenda of this meeting and the procedure :) (so we then can make offtopic people quiet ;)
<stockholm> aj: if you tell us how you imagine how this can work out well this way we might see the advantage
<aj> sorry, i need to know if moray/someone from EDI's willing to do the above
<moray> aj: yes, I was waiting for the interruption to be over
<aj> thanks
<stockholm> who is chair now?
* Sledge will continue on
<stockholm> thanks
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<Sledge> agenda item 3 - teams compare their bids
* h01ger thinks we either go with the agenda from ajs mail or the one we started here while he was asleep. chairs please go. i dont chair anymore
<Sledge> point out strengths of the opposing bid, and weaknesses in their own
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<Sledge> s/item 2/item 3/, sorry
<Sledge> s/item 3/item 2/, sorry
* Sledge screams at his poor faiing fingers
<aj> f4f18f855ac7240b5e4ebb7c5771e8e74f563682; Sledge: heads or tails?
<stockholm> (c:
<Sledge> heads
<aj> echo 'heads = sarajevo goes first' | sha1sum
<Sledge> later items:
<Sledge> _limited_ questions for the 2 teams
<Sledge> (item 3)
<vedran_sjj> ok I'd like to do EDI's strengths and SJJ weakness at the same time
<vedran_sjj> is it ok?
<aj> sounds fair; moray?
<moray> I'm not sure what the question is precisely, but seems fine
<Sledge> item 4: weigh up bids against priorities
<Sledge> item 5: ***decision***
<Sledge> people happy with that agenda?
<Ganneff> ...
<sapphire_sjj> yes\
<aj> vedran_sjj: okay, 5m on strengths; 5m on weaknesses once sledge says okay; then same for edi team (in reverse), then we'll move on to clarifications from everyone
<h01ger> Sledge, aj: thats it? no orga-team topic?
* Maulkin suggests 4a: comments from orga-team
<h01ger> (sorry for reacting so late)
<Maulkin> Fairly stongly.
<aj> vedran_sjj: the aim at this point is for you guys to demonstrate you know what you're talking about and are able to analyse your own problems as well as just advocate for your bid
<Maulkin> *strongly
<Sledge> Maulkin: yup, add that
<Maulkin> This need wiki-ing?
<Sledge> please
<Sledge> anything else for agenda?
<aj> clarifications from everyone includes from the orga team
<h01ger> Sledge, yes. see above. orgateam/delegates
<h01ger> this somewhat is crashed atm
<h01ger> this=team
* h01ger is sorry to be honest. no, i'm not :)
<Sledge> others: do we want to discuss orga-team in this meeting?
<stockholm> h01ger: i dont follow?
<stockholm> h01ger: can you explain?
<gwolf> stockholm: We are in a crisis moment for the team
<h01ger> stockholm, see gwolf.
<gwolf> And that's something quite objective :)
<stockholm> ah
<marga> Please, guys, this is off-topic right now. vedran_sjj I hope you are preparing your statement.
<vedran_sjj> yes i'm ready
<h01ger> marga, no. Tolimar has left :( you just want to continue??
<Sledge> h01ger: sorry, unless somebody else agrees with you we'll leave that discussion until later
<marga> h01ger: not really, but I don't want to discuss this right now.
<h01ger> (to give one example why i think this is important as well. happily after the venue decision...)
<Sledge> h01ger: ok, cool
<Sledge> vedran_sjj: ready to go?
<marga> vedran_sjj: ok, please go ahead?
<h01ger> Sledge, but put it on the agenda!
<Maulkin> Agenda at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConf7Meetings
<vedran_sjj> ok
<Sledge> h01ger: ok, 6: orga team discussion
<Sledge> vedran_sjj: 5 minutes
<vedran_sjj> 1. SJJ has no budget flights... while EDI has a lot of budget flights
<vedran_sjj> obviously this presents a problem for non-sponsored atendees
<vedran_sjj> making it more expensive and complicated to visit SJJ
* h01ger missed the topic orgateam in the agenda and just added it
<vedran_sjj> (as I said earlier, I'm doing strengths/weaknesses at the same time)
<vedran_sjj> (cause I don't want to just repeat the same stuff...)
<vedran_sjj> we spent a lot of energy finding a solution to this problem
<vedran_sjj> we can make it smaller, but now dissapear completely
<aj> just problems, we don't need solutions too :)
<vedran_sjj> I say non-sponsored, because sponsorship is in the spreadsheet
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<vedran_sjj> 2. EDI has a well-known debian community
<vedran_sjj> they have several DDs on their team
<vedran_sjj> while our team is a strong general Linux community but less involved with Debian
<vedran_sjj> though I see this as an opportunity to convert this community to Debian :)
<vedran_sjj> some may disagree...
<vedran_sjj> 3. SJJ might be less interesting to corporate sponsorship
<aj> (converting the community to debian would be a strength of the bid, don't cheat :)
<vedran_sjj> ok sorry
<vedran_sjj> we had that problem (no 3) when talking about another prospective FOSS conference
<aj> (half time)
<vedran_sjj> 4. and I'd like to add (some from my team disagree strongly...) the cultural issues
<Sledge> ok
<Sledge> by my account that's 5 minutes
<vedran_sjj> I understand some DC attendees might have issues with SJJ
<Sledge> vedran_sjj: please finish 4.
<Sledge> then we move on
<vedran_sjj> -- as I said I'm doing both at the same time
<aj> (5m for weaknesses SJJ, 5m for strengths EDI = 10m all up)
<vedran_sjj> can't we join the two half-times?
<Sledge> crap, sorry
* Sledge hits himself
<vedran_sjj> as I would basically be repeating myself
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<aj> which cultural issues do you see still being a problem for sjj potentially?
<vedran_sjj> point 4:
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<vedran_sjj> this is really very subjective
<vedran_sjj> we tried to remove such issues (even have a wiki on that)
<vedran_sjj> but I think some people will just never change their opinion no matter what we do
<vedran_sjj> the issue is prejudice and not the actual state
<vedran_sjj> of things
<aj> okay, next one?
<vedran_sjj> to repeat EDIs strenghts: EDI airport, more attractive to sponsors etc.
<vedran_sjj> well thats it, we'll be open for questions if needed
<aj> okay
<Sledge> swap to EDI?
<vedran_sjj> you can swap, I'm finished
<aj> since there's a minute left; would you go to EDI if they had dc7 and you could?
<vedran_sjj> yes why not
<vedran_sjj> i would go
<vedran_sjj> nothing else :)
<bdale> aj: am I correct that you'd like us to hold comments until after EDI's turn?
<Maulkin> ** minutes see above for sjj positives/negatives bit.
<Sledge> bdale: correct
<Sledge> let's move on to EDI
<aj> bdale: yes; we'll let both teams bullet point any additional strengths they think they have then
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<Sledge> moray: are you ready?
* bdale agrees
<moray> Sledge: you want me to start on Sarajevo strengths?
<Sledge> yes please
<aj> weaknesses for edi, strengths for sjj; either order
<Sledge> moray: 10 mins, go!
<moray> I think the main advantage for Sarajevo over Edinburgh is that it's a cheaper city for food/accommodation
<moray> i.e. either of the same quality is definitely cheaper in Sarajevo than Edinburgh
<moray> (2) The Bosnians hope that they'll create some more interest in free software by having the conference there
<moray> (3) It's probably a more 'exotic' location (a lot of people seem to find the UK a boring idea ;)
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<moray> (4) I know that a lot of people prefer the 'self-contained' venue they're proposing
<moray> ok, can I go on our weaknesses?
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<aj> go ahead
<moray> right
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<moray> weaknesses:
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<moray> (1) We're competing with a lot of other events in Edinburgh to get venues/accommodation, especially since we're proposing a venue right in the middle of the city
<moray> The obviously drives up prices for facilities, and it also means things need to be booked early
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<moray> (3) Edinburgh is a more expensive city than Sarajevo, though this is mitigated because we'd be right in the centre (zero travel costs once you're there), and all the city-run tourist things are free
<aj> (2) ?
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<moray> aj: er, the one without a number was 2 in my mind ;)
<aj> ah
<moray> Weather - when I visited Sarajevo, it was consistently bright and mid-30s
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<moray> while I've already explained that Edinburgh isn't wet compared to Glasgow, people *are* likely to see some rain while they're here ;)
<moray> I think that's me done
<aj> (i think we can assume we're not holding dc in glasgow :)
<Maulkin> ** minutes - see above for Edi strengths and weaknesses
<Sledge> moray: nothing further to add?
<aj> vedran_sjj: ok, moray had a chance to think while you were talking, did you think of anything you wanted to add while moray was?
<moray> oh, one more, someone implies people may be worried about kilts or haggis or bagpipes ;)
<vedran_sjj> nothing more from sjj
<bdale> moray: they're only worried that I'll be in a tie-dyed kilt all week... ;-)
* Sledge shudders at that image
<Sledge> :-)
<vedran_sjj> aj: nothing more, we can go on
<Maulkin> ** minutes Questions and comments
<Maulkin> (I think)
<aj> vedran_sjj: okay, cheap food, local interest, exotic locale, self-contained venue; did you have any other strengths for sjj you wanted to remind people of very briefly?
<vedran_sjj> ok, public transport in sjj is very cheap
<stockholm> comments about the sponsors thing:
<aj> stockholm: please wait
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<vedran_sjj> we have a top quality venue
<vedran_sjj> a four star hotel
<vedran_sjj> everything under one roof, 24/7
<aj> that one's mentioned (self contained venue)
<vedran_sjj> I'd like to add 24/7 availability
<gwolf> aj: Note the 24/7 thing
<aj> right
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<vedran_sjj> we have an already established Internet link + prospective donors for wireless
<vedran_sjj> Internet in rooms
<marga> vedran_sjj: that's a promise, not a fact, right?
<vedran_sjj> also we have server & video rooms available
<aj> marga: questions later
<vedran_sjj> marga: thats a fact, we have confirmation from ISP
<marga> vedran_sjj: I meant the "Internet in rooms" part.
<Sledge> ok, vedran_sjj: done?
<vedran_sjj> and one more thing: IMHO we have quite good accessibility support
* gwolf has to interrupt a second - I'm leaving in under five minutes
<vedran_sjj> marga: that also is confirmed
<gwolf> I'll leave a couple of comments in the list. Please take them into account when doing the voting.
<aj> moray: since i forgot earlier; if dc7 were in sjj, would you be going?
* gwolf ceases to interrupt
<Maulkin> gwolf: Or you can /msg me them and I'll relay
<gwolf> Maulkin: So be it.
<moray> aj: well, I'd rather answer about the whole team - I'm sure that there will be a good representation from our UK bid team, wherever it is
<Sledge> ok, that's fair enough
<Maulkin> ** minutes - add stuff above to +/- for sjj
<aj> moray: any additional strengths of edi you'd like to mentioned, other than cheap fligths, debian community, corporate sponsors?
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<Sledge> moray: quick summary of EDI bid strengths?
<moray> yup ...
<moray> the bid team has a lot of experience of past debconfs, as well as other free software events and academic conferences, so I think we have a lot of experience between us to work to organise a good event
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<moray> we're proposing debconf in a very central location, so we have all the amenities of the city right on our doorstep
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<moray> the city as a whole is accessible, with e.g. the taxis required to be able to transport wheelchairs, as well as wheelchair accessible buses
<moray> the venues are flexible about network rearranging/mess etc.
<moray> there's lots of breakout space in the venue as well as outside
<moray> Edinburgh's a major network hub, we *might* be able to negotiate 1Gb/s from the venue, but it's certainly easy to get a nice (if slower than that) connection from one of our sponsor ISPs
<Sledge> ok; done?
<moray> the city is well-connected besides flights, btw, people from Europe can also take trains and ferries if they want to avoid killing the earth so fast
<moray> Sledge: yeah, I should stop
<Sledge> ok, done
<Sledge> let's move on
<aj> vedran_sjj: does that summary from moray of edi strengths sound fair?
<Maulkin> ** minutes - add stuff above to +/- for edi
<vedran_sjj> I'd like to add that we have some of the same things
* gwolf waves goodbye. Maulkin has my final comments. I'll stay logged in to get the backlog later.
<Sledge> ttfn gwolf
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<vedran_sjj> breakout space, network flexibility, we also have a minibus for transportation of disabled persons
<Maulkin> ** minutes dups from SJJ to above list
<aj> moray: happy to move on now too?
<vedran_sjj> yeah I said what I meant to say
<moray> aj: I think we want to avoid just turning into discussion of specific points here, so definitely
<Sledge> ok
<Sledge> (brief) questions for the teams
<stockholm> must go to bed soon
<Maulkin> Sledge: I need a small section in (4) for gwolf's comments
<Maulkin> Are we taking questions from -discuss?
<Sledge> Maulkin: no problem
<aj> oh, i guess we are
<Maulkin> Caus eI can relay
<Sledge> please do so
<Sledge> 10 minutes for questions, we'll be ruthless about moving on
<stockholm> should i comment about the sponsorship later?
<Maulkin> stockholm: Yeah...
<Maulkin> I think
<marga> vedran_sjj: if DC7 is in SJJ, who will be the local-team leader and how will that work?
<vedran_sjj> sapphire will be the leader, but our team on democratic principles
<vedran_sjj> our team WORKS on democratic principles
<aj> so i believe HP at least are committed to sponsoring debconf independent of the venue, as long as the conference is effective at improving debian; i think that's worth noting explicitly, since sjj were concerned it might be a weakness for them
<vedran_sjj> there will be at least three deputees
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<vedran_sjj> Amar, Amila and myself
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<Sledge> ok
<Sledge> marga: answered for you?
<marga> Sledge: I guess. Just one more thing, who would be communicating with the orga team?
<vedran_sjj> all four of us
* h01ger hopes they will be(come) part of the orga team ;)
<Sledge> ok - next question please
<Maulkin> Both teams: Why do you want to host debconf?
<moray> I'll go?
<vedran_sjj> moray: you first now :)
<Sledge> go
<aj> both go, it's irc; but be brief :)
<moray> 'to make Debian better' - or, more specifically, because we're really enjoyed previous debconfs and want to contribute something back
<Sledge> ok - vedran_sjj??
<vedran_sjj> we have a strong Linux community, with this I believe that we would push that com. towards Debian
<Sledge> ok; next Q
<aj> "com." ?
<aj> community
<vedran_sjj> community
<Maulkin> Something coming from -discuss
<stockholm> i have a question for for edinburgh: what options did you explore for budget food? did you investigate different places like the mosque, to combine both price and variety?
<moray> Sledge: should I answer that now?
<stockholm> something like indish on fridays, pasta on mondays, haggis on sat... (c:
<Sledge> moray: please, yes
<bdale> I need to leave to fetch my son from camp, back in 20 mins or so, will stay logged in to read scrollback on my return
<aj> Sledge: last round of questions?
<moray> the mosque kitchen is still an available option. the catering option at Teviot (for example) is a flexible canteen, and is much cheaper than other external caterers we've investigated. really the best solution depends on how much money the organising team overall decides to devote to food. the precise details on food can be organised much closer to the event than the main venue booking
<Sledge> aj: one more Q after moray's answer
<moray> I can give more detail, but I guess that's enough?
<marga> This is a comment, and a follow-up question. After the experience in MEX we've learned to distrust things that are promised. So it would be nice that whenever stating a situation you would state if it's an actual fact, a fact that is confirmed to happen, or just an informal promise... So, both teams, do you have a 'Plan B' for things that were promised but haven't happened yet?
<Sledge> ok...
* Maulkin has 3... questions (all short)
<Sledge> SJJ first?
<marga> (sorry if I rushed).
<Maulkin> From (-discuss)
* Sledge tickles marga for diving in
<vedran_sjj> marga: please be more exact
<aj> to clarify, i think marga means promised by sponsors, not by the local team
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* Topic for #debconf-team set by h01ger!~holger@socket.layer-acht.org on Mon Jul 10 20:17:26 2006
<marga> vedran_sjj: like network in the rooms, or that sort of stuff, which is not there yet.
<vedran_sjj> marga: for ISP, we discussed with their manager and they said that we will have an official "letter of intent" but sadly their marketing guy was out of town
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<Sledge> moray: please have your answer ready too
<vedran_sjj> network in rooms - there is infrastructure, they just need a few switches to hook it up
<vedran_sjj> they have Cat5 in the rooms
<vedran_sjj> so I guess plan B is: we will provide the switches ;)
<Sledge> vedran_sjj: ok, done?
<h01ger> vedran_sjj, for visas at the airport?
<vedran_sjj> most other stuff I can think of is promised to be free, but at worst we will pay for it
<Sledge> moray: EDI response?
<moray> I don't think we're relying on anything that isn't already in place. there's still the question of negotations on facilities falling through before contracts are signed, etc. - I don't think our venues are fly-by-night like that, but this is also why we've been keeping a number of venue options open to get the best deal while we negotiate
<Sledge> ok
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<moray> nothing we've asked for from the venues is 'unusual' for them, so I don't foresee problems
<stockholm> what about if the rooms are not 24/7 in edi?
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<vedran_sjj> h01ger: we have a promise from Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of B&H and we also have confirmation from other similar venues that they have experience with this
<moray> stockholm: we now have both the ECA and Teviot offering 24/7
<vedran_sjj> h01ger: thats pretty much as good as it gets....
<stockholm> moray: ah, thanks
<Sledge> right
<moray> stockholm: if we didn't have that, we do also have a backup option of another space we could use at night nearby
<Maulkin> My questions from -discuss?
<stockholm> moray: good
<h01ger> vedran_sjj, nods - but you know gwolf also had promises from the bureucrazy...
<Sledge> as Maulkin has a couple of questions from -discuss, please dive in QUICKLY
<aj> Sledge: discussing each teams alternatives to running dc7 after maulkin?
<Maulkin> "we can get food at 3am in both sjj and edi after a long night hacking"
<Sledge> aj: can do
<Maulkin> No.
<Maulkin> Crap. Ignore that
<Maulkin> "both teams, will you bid for 2008 if you don't win?"
<vedran_sjj> h01ger: personally I trust the other organizations that organized similar events
<aj> (2009; 2008 will be on a different continent apparently)
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<Sledge> what's the Q?
<Sledge> ok
<moray> please make clear which questions we're meant to answer, and which are noise, yes ;)
<Maulkin> Bith teams: "both teams, will you bid for 2008 if you don't win?"
<Sledge> SJJ: ??
<h01ger> (2009)
<Ganneff> 2009
<stockholm> (isnt that question rather hypothetical, since it is far in the future?)
<vedran_sjj> we will bid on 2009 but I doubt that we will get the same prices...
<Sledge> ok
<Sledge> EDI: ??
<Maulkin> I think the response I'm seeing elsewhere is:
<moray> I think some people will be 'burnt out' for another DebConf bid after the length of time that's led up to this one; also at points in this process it's been implied that the UK is simply too expensive a country, and if prices are unlikely to fall significantly. however, we do have people on the team who would be expect to be interested in bidding again in 2009 if it doesn't happen this year
<Maulkin> Ahh, food.
<Maulkin> Gah
<Sledge> Maulkin: next Q please
<Maulkin> "we can get food at 3am in both sjj and edi after a long night hacking / is there food or restarants generally around the place?"
<Sledge> ok
<moray> Maulkin: do you mean s/we can/can we/?
<Maulkin> (That's the last from -discuss)
<Maulkin> yes, can we
<Sledge> EDI: ??
* h01ger thinks the uk is cheaper than .no and .fi - isnt it?
<moray> h01ger: yes
<vedran_sjj> Maulkin: we can get food 24/7
<aj> vedran_sjj: from where? the hotel or surrounding shops or...?
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<moray> Maulkin: yes, we're right in the middle of the city
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<vedran_sjj> aj: from hotel and the nearby restaurant (very cheap)
<marga> moray: do the pubs close?
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<moray> Maulkin: a lot of bars/restaurants nearby, and fast food places nearby for late night
<vedran_sjj> aj: though the restaurant is not 24/7 :)
<moray> marga: yes, at different times from each other
<Maulkin> Time for one more Q?
<Sledge> questions done I think
<Sledge> Maulkin: no, too late
<Maulkin> ok, ta
<Sledge> time to move on
<Sledge> aj: ??
<aj> okay, alternatives now?
<Sledge> yup - ask away
<Maulkin> Alternatives?
<Maulkin> ** minutes: questions and answers section above
<aj> so, if the other team hosts the conference, what will your team end up doing? helping out remotely as part of the orga team; running something else? what ideas do people have? people from -discuss might want to chime in to, i don't know if we want to demoderate briefly
<aj> i'd say max 15m for this at this point?
<Maulkin> aj: No, I can relay
<Sledge> yes, please relay to keep things sane
<stockholm> i need to go to be.
<stockholm> bed
<vedran_sjj> aj: some team members will help out
<Maulkin> stockholm: /msg me with any commenst you want me to relay
<aj> one possibility i see for sarajevo is having a regional miniconference, or a regional "free software" conference -- both those have been quite successful in australia
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* Maulkin swaps hats around
<Maulkin> I'll carry on being part of the orga team no matter who gets it.
* Maulkin re-hats
<aj> 06:36 <weasel> aj: is this to imply that DebConf will be in EDI?
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<aj> to answer that on channel, actually
<aj> no, definitely not -- it does imply i'd like to see a conference in sjj next year either way though
<moray> Maulkin: also from Edinburgh we have e.g. someone interested in helping with video team stuff in SJJ, Paul Sladen who says he'd attend and sleep lots ;)
<moray> (er, s/someone interested/Mark Brown interested/)
<Sledge> sladen will sleep lots wherever, I can attest to that :-)
<aj> 06:36 <slef> is either venue short of regional conferences already?
<aj> edi, sjj; are there other local conferences you can go to if dc isn't local?
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<vedran_sjj> aj: there are no other confs
<moray> aj: I think that depends what you mean by 'local'; there do tend to be Debian *social* events in the UK, though mostly down in the south of England, while it's quite easy to get from Edinburgh to events on the continent
<moray> (e.g. KDE, GNOME conferences)
<marga> (for those not familiar with UK slang, 'the continent' = 'the rest of Europe that's not the UK').
<aj> vedran_sjj: is it difficult for bosnians to get to KDE, GNOME etc conferences that moray mentions? i guess due to travel costs?
<vedran_sjj> aj: yes, there are visa issues and the general financial issues
<vedran_sjj> aj: though I'm wandering about the purpose of this line of questions
<Maulkin> Otehrs on -discuss are wondering too
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<Maulkin> aj: Could you clarify?
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<vedran_sjj> s/wandering/wondering/ sorry
<Sledge> aj: ??
<aj> damn, and i thought i'd be the one asking the difficult questions
<Sledge> :-)
<aj> okay, so this requires a little background
<aj> in australia, we have an annual linux conference; it started in '99, missed a year, continued in 2001 and has been annual since then
<aj> i was on the organising team for it in 2002 (we had about 250-300 people), and have been more or less involved in most of them since then
<aj> the focus of the conference is basically "it's too hard to travel to europe for most of us to see all their cool talks, ditto america, so let's bring them out here"
<aj> in 2002 we also started running a debian miniconf, which attracted about 100 people, mostly debian users rather than developers, and has continued ever year since too
* bdale is back
<aj> it's different to debconf, since it's more about talks and users than hacking and developers, but is quite interesting
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<aj> it just strikes me that bosnia/the balkans are in a similar situation, and maybe a similar solution would be interesting; i know a few people i've talked to who are in favour of edi for dc7, also think that a "linux.conf.balkans" every year would be a fascinating event
<Sledge> ok...
<Sledge> aj: done?
<vedran_sjj> aj: interesting idea, but it's a bit hard to think about that when we don't know if we will host DebConf or not
<aj> yes
<Sledge> right
<Maulkin> aj, would it not make sense to use a DebConf as a kick-off for an annual series?
<Maulkin> From -discuss
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<Maulkin> Quick answer please :)
* Sledge nods Maulkin
<aj> Maulkin: it could easily, the question is what would edi do then? i don't even have a guess for that
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<Sledge> right
<Sledge> I think we're wandering off, time to get back to the agenda
<aj> yup
<Maulkin> All ok form -discuss.
<Maulkin> *from
<Sledge> orga team comments
<Sledge> item 4
<Maulkin> Ok.
* Maulkin needs a little bit here from gwolf and stockholm
<Ganneff> then start
<Maulkin> <stockholm> i asked sponsors if they would sponsor either debconf or sarajevo when asking for sponsorship last time around. and they consider both "europe" and would sponsor. e.g. the big providers in germany etc.
<marga> I guess there's and EDI missing there.
<Maulkin> Yes.
<Maulkin> 21:00 <gwolf> As for the local teams, the EDI team looks more responsable/grown-up, and I must acknowledge their balance - even on looking on Sarajevo information when the other team could not answer something
<Maulkin> 21:02 <gwolf> The SJJ team looks very enthusiastic, and they (claim to - should we believe them? I do at least :) ) have experience on other non-Debconf conferences - Now, as for my experience here, no conference gets you ready for Debconf... But still :)
<Maulkin> 21:02 <gwolf> Anyway, I won't go anymore on the issue-per-issue thing
<Maulkin> 21:03 <gwolf> Both venues have great installations, but I think the Terme hotel provides a more comfortable setting where we will be able to sit and work
<Maulkin> 21:02 <gwolf> The amount of details we can work on for both sides is huge
<Maulkin> [ends]
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<Sledge> Maulkin: thanks
<Sledge> any other orga team comments please
<Maulkin> Oh, and for me, I'm staying out of particular discussions, due to potential bias.
<Ganneff> my opinion about this meeting is known, so i dont speak much more then when it comes to "decision".
<Sledge> anybody else?
<Maulkin> yes.
<aj> Ganneff: can you summarise that to the list when it's convenient for the record, please?
<Maulkin> <@mooch> Maulkin: nokia comment, please
<marga> I don't have comments.
<Maulkin> No idea what that means though
<marga> <mooch> nokia will probably not have a problem with the venue
<bdale> mooch is primary point of contact for Nokia as a sponsor, I presume
<Maulkin> Erm...
<aj> Maulkin: want me to take the heat for quoting this one? :)
<marga> aj: I'll do it.
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<Maulkin> aj: Please, I can't as I have bias
<aj> marga, go ahead, i'd like to comment on it afterwards (too)
<Sledge> please just post the comment
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<Maulkin> ok.
<marga> It is the opinion of several people (mooch is the one raising it at this moment), that should the conference happen in SJJ, Safir might not be the best person to lead the group since it needs a lot of cold blood and controled spirit not to break apart, and he has demonstrated to be too influenced by personal feelings and attacking attitude during the process.
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<Maulkin> Thanks marga
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<aj> the term "impulsive" maybe have appeared too; i'd just like to say that i've been very impressed by the excitement and enthusiasm of the sjj team, and while i think that has boiled over into taking offense unnecessarily now and then, it's that sort of passion that makes these sorts of conferences great
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<Sledge> if we have no more orga comments, I'd like to move us on again
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<Maulkin> Sledge: Checking -discuss now
* h01ger is not sure if he has something new to say
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<Ganneff> um. sjj didnt comment on that one point yet?
<aj> otoh, actually running them tends to teach you hot to deal with those sorts of reactions, because you get so stressed out you have to learn one way or another
<vedran_sjj> Ganneff: what point exactly?
<Ganneff> vedran_sjj: margas quote
<vedran_sjj> Ganneff: amar_sjj responded on -discuss
<Ganneff> different chan, not in minutes
<Maulkin> I think that's all
<h01ger> <amar_sjj> Maulkin: the bosnian team consists of 27 people. Safir initiated everything but the DebCof will be handled by the TEAM.
<Sledge> ok, let's see that response and move on please
<vedran_sjj> the sjj team consists of 27 people. safir started everything but debconf will be handled by the TEAM
<Maulkin> Can we move?
<vedran_sjj> thanks h01ger
<Sledge> yes
<Sledge> item 5 by my count
<Maulkin> ** minutes above comments from orga
* h01ger looks at the agenda to see if he should say something now or later
* Maulkin nods
<Sledge> h01ger: shout now if you're going to
<Ganneff> h01ger: you are orga, so talk
<Sledge> h01ger: ??
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* h01ger thinks
* Sledge urges h01ger to think quickly :-)
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* Topic for #debconf-team set by h01ger!~holger@socket.layer-acht.org on Mon Jul 10 21:25:31 2006
<h01ger> i think i value the "strong, mature, experienced local team" EDI team, but must admit he has also been impressed by the SJJ team recently but still has doubts.
<Sledge> right
<Sledge> thankyou, let's move on
<h01ger> and me shuts up, for sake
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<Sledge> 5: "weigh up bids against priorities"
<Maulkin> ** minutes see abouve for orga team comments, now weigh up bids against priorities"
<marga> -> http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList
<Sledge> marga: yup
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<Sledge> right, let's get this organised
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<Sledge> would orga people prefer to give their rankings against all the priorities at once, or shall we go through an item at a time?
<aj> how about we see if moray and vedran_sjj can agree on answers for each priority first?
* marga H ~marga@200.89.185.29 (Margarita Manterola)
<marga> Sledge: I don't know if ranking is important...
<Maulkin> Again, I'm abstaining this section.
<Sledge> aj: I think we've probably seen enough discussion of those
<marga> At least, we should discard those priorities which are pretty much the same for both venues.
<moray> aj: I think that'll just turn into a fight about details and how you weigh up sub-points of each?
<aj> sorry as in "both venues seems to be roughly equally affordable for sponsors" ?
<Maulkin> Ok...
<Maulkin> Suggestion.
<Sledge> Maulkin: go ahead
<Maulkin> Sledge: state the 'item' and give an opinion on which is stronger or weaker or the same.
<Sledge> ...
* h01ger has another comment, sorry. the SJJ team has not been involved in dc before (like stockholm demanded before dc6 and now waved this requirement) - OTOH people from the EDI team have and i think its good.
<Maulkin> Ask for objections from local teams and orga team
<Sledge> Maulkin: ok, I'll do that
<Maulkin> Then move on
<Ganneff> 2,3,4,5,6,7,9 are too similar for both locations and can be kicked imo.
<Sledge> h01ger: you're too late
<Sledge> right
<Sledge> item 1: cost
<aj> (jftr: safir was involved as a volunteer at dc5 aiui)
<marga> Ganneff: I disagree.
<Maulkin> Can we keep this short BTW?
<Sledge> in terms of cost, we have: cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI
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<marga> Ganneff: I think the points at stake are 1,2,4 and 8.
<Sledge> does that sound a fair summary?
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<vedran_sjj> Ganneff marga: I must object
<Sledge> vedran_sjj: what's the problem?
<moray> Sledge: yes: prices on the ground vary depending exactly what we decide to pay for for attendees, but certainly things of the same quality will be cheaper in Sarajevo, whereas getting to Edinburgh gives budget airlines for Europeans, and significantly cheaper flights for others
<vedran_sjj> I think all points need to be weighed
<Sledge> vedran_sjj: ok, we'll weigh them all up
<Sledge> vedran_sjj: are you happy with the summary of cost?
<vedran_sjj> Sledge: you mean the spreadsheet? yes we're fine with that
<Sledge> right
<marga> vedran_sjj: he means this: "<Sledge> in terms of cost, we have: cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI"
<Sledge> pri #2: local team
<Ganneff> edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already. i trust both to make a good conf.
* h01ger also thinks 1,2,4 and 8 are the important (different) ones
<moray> marga appeared to want to say something here; I don't think it's useful for us teams to comment?
<Sledge> Ganneff: thanks, about what I'd have said
<Sledge> marga: please dive in if you have something
<moray> Sledge: can I correct that we've intentionally only listed people who were already involved, there are a lot more people in the UK who've expressed interest in helping *if* DebConf happens here
<Sledge> moray: noted
<moray> (including edlug, compsoc people as mentioned on the wiki)
<vedran_sjj> Sledge: also applies for SJJ
<aj> if both teams could keep some room at the conference for non-organisers, that would be great :)
* h01ger wonders if the localteams should be involved so much in weighting the prios..
<bdale> my opinion is that both teams have critical mass already
<Sledge> any further comments on pri2?
* Sledge waits 30 secs
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<marga> Ok
<marga> Sorry, was away one moment, I have a comment.
<Sledge> marga: go
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<marga> It's my understanding that it's a question of "National Pride" for SJJ people to hold a DebConf. However, I do fear that they might not be ready for hosting DebConf yet.
<Sledge> right
<Sledge> 30 secs
<marga> Mainly because only Safir has been present in a previous DebConf, and DebConf is not like any other conference.
* h01ger nods
<Sledge> pri3: good working spaces
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<Sledge> as far as I can see, both bids should have this covered
<Sledge> if you disagree, please respond ASAP
<bdale> I think so too
<vedran_sjj> Sledge: 24/7, special rooms
<Ganneff> both are covered here
<Ganneff> hotel has enough room, edi also.
<vedran_sjj> Sledge: same building
<Maulkin> That's a different point
<Sledge> moving on
<Sledge> pri4: excellant network connectivity
<h01ger> vedran_sjj..., u didnt say anything new/interesting now... (really) (at 3)
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<vedran_sjj> h01ger: am I allowed to point out our strengths?
<Ganneff> pri4 - edi may have more uplink, but sjj would give us also enough for debconf IMO
<Sledge> both have offers of networking from local ISPs that should be enough for us; EDI may have an advantage in terms of absolute bw
<Maulkin> vedran_sjj: Please just state if you disagree with the summaries
<h01ger> vedran_sjj, i thought the orga team weights the priorities - you had your time allready..
<Sledge> any disagreement?
<Sledge> 30 secs
<aj> i believe the edi venue also has wired networking already hooked up, whereas the sjj team may have to do that themselves
<vedran_sjj> Maulkin: I disagree with summary of pri3
* h01ger is not sure about aruba and other hw sponsors but the SJJ offerings are not that bad
<h01ger> (because esp. aruba-sponsorship relies on local dealers..)
<Ganneff> aj: no already setup wired did suffice up tonow
<Ganneff> aj: i think we need to run cables in both locations for some parts
<Sledge> vedran_sjj: what's the problem with (3)?
<Maulkin> vedran_sjj: Do you feel sjj is stronger in terms of the actual working spaces? (not rooms etc)
<marga> vedran_sjj: pri 3 refers to hacklabs / talk rooms. Not allocation.
<moray> Ganneff: yeah, in ECA we might want to add some, and in either venue would certainly need to split out for individual machines etc.
<vedran_sjj> Sledge: we have confirmed 24/7 and availability of server and video rooms
<h01ger> Ganneff, which might be harder in a hotel (but wasnt a problem in brasil)
<Maulkin> vedran_sjj: So does Edinburgh
<Ganneff> h01ger: not according to the hotel, we asked that. should be doable.
<h01ger> Ganneff, ok
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<vedran_sjj> we also have more hacklabs available
<marga> vedran_sjj: more? How many rooms for how many people?
<Ganneff> i wouldnt count numbers there, as some locations in edi have lots of rooms.
<Sledge> vedran_sjj: I think most people are happy with both bids on this front, we should move on
<Ganneff> yes. next.
* h01ger nods to sledge
<vedran_sjj> marga: we have 6 rooms available, one large room up to 300 people and the other are smaller
<Sledge> people happy with (4)?
<bdale> if sjj thinks they're slightly ahead on 3, they seem to be slightly behind on 4, so it probably washes out
<vedran_sjj> bdale: I agree
<moray> bdale: in either venue in Edinburgh rooms would be limited by what we rent rather than space
<moray> (as Ganneff said)
* Maulkin moves for closure on (3) and (4)
<Sledge> 30 secs on (4), then move on
<bdale> my opinion is that both teams have adequate answers for 3 and 4 to ensure a good conf
<Sledge> (5):
<Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
<moray> is this about sponsored catering or outside stuff, or both?
<Sledge> both, I think
<Ganneff> for 5 - both sites can offer good food. the price may vary in EDI, depending on what is chosen.
<bdale> moray: I meant both
* h01ger nods to Ganneff
<Sledge> on site food seems to be good enough in both, though maybe more expensive in EDI
<aj> expensive goes back to point (1), no?
* Maulkin nods
<Sledge> for separate food, EDI may have a slight advantage due to being right in the city centre; again, both are adequate
<Ganneff> where i only vote against using the mosque kitchen for the whole thing, but except that i guess both sides will feed us good enough. maybe edi more expensive, depends on what they can talk out of the guys there.
<bdale> for perspective, I think dc2 and dc3 were barely adequate in this regard, dc4 had great in-house meals but going off site was a challenge. dc5 was so-so on food all told, and dc6 was stunningly good because there were many options available within easy walk at good prices
<Sledge> any arguments on (5)? 30 secs
<Maulkin> bdale: Thus, do you have a preferred venue for this?
<bdale> Maulkin: I've been to EDI, I've never been to SJJ, I find it hard to differentiate well based on what has been asserted in the proposals
<Maulkin> Or any objections to "They're both equal"? :)
<bdale> I'd abstain
<Maulkin> :)
<Sledge> ok, moving on to (6): suitabile housing in close proximity
<vedran_sjj> Maulkin: sjj is much cheaper
<moray> Maulkin: well, I'd mildly object on that, but I agree no one will starve in either
<Maulkin> .oO(This is feeling like a SPI meeting)Oo.
<Maulkin> vedran_sjj: That was section (1), it's been noted
* bdale whacks Maulkin
<Sledge> Maulkin: *grin*
<h01ger> vedran_sjj, thats is point1. atm you're only weakening point2
<h01ger> what does "suitabile housing in close proximity" mean?
<Sledge> housing: sjj has an advantage with accommodation on the same site; EDI is more spread out (but not a *huge* amount)
<h01ger> accomodation?
<Maulkin> h01ger: yes
<marga> SJJ has an advantage over EDI at prio. 6, since it's a four star hotel, and everything is close together. EDI's proposal is still acceptable and "DebConf level".
* Sledge nods marga
* h01ger nods to marga
* bdale agrees
<Ganneff> accomodation is in SJJ all in one, EDI is spread in the city. and has of course a lot of hotels also there.
<Ganneff> plus for sjj imo.
<h01ger> anybody taking notes on this pro/con things?
<Sledge> no arguments? moving on in 30s
* Maulkin is taking minutes.
<aj> one advantage to EDI on that score is people can opt to go to a 5-star hotel if they're willing to pay
<aj> the SJJ bid gets everyone into the 4-star hotel instead
<bdale> aj: I'm presuming you could also do that in SJJ, though? cheap taxis, too.
<aj> ah, good point
<Sledge> (7): presentation facilities
<aj> this is what happens when you walk everywhere...
<Ganneff> for 7 - SJJ has the technic of the hotel included for free. sjj has the lecture halls in ECA and big rooms in teviot.
<bdale> traveling on an expense account is definitely a different experience...
* Sledge nods Ganneff
<bdale> s/sjj/EDI/, right?
<Ganneff> sjj has a big room for main talks, with stuff for beamer and sound, and various smaller rooms for other things.
<Ganneff> edi has the lecture halls or big room, and also various smaller rooms. dont know technic in lecture halls in EDI.
<marga> So, it's even?
<Sledge> sounds like
<bdale> both sound adequate
<moray> Ganneff: Maulkin and sladen_uk have worked in audiovisual stuff (and kevc_uk does sound stuff), so we have lots of contacts for getting lent/sponsored equipment, besides what's in the venues
<moray> (so yes, I'd agree both are adequate)
* h01ger nods to moray
<Sledge> ok, so even there by all accounts
<Sledge> moving on in 30s
<Ganneff> (that even is why i mentioned skip)
<Sledge> (8) travel logistics
<Ganneff> plus for EDI, way more airlines there.
<Sledge> this point is a major plus towards EDI
<h01ger> visas also
* marga nods.
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<bdale> both require 3 airline flights for me. there seem to be more connection options to EDI, and EDI seems to be cheaper though not by a lot.
<Sledge> ok
<Sledge> any argument? moving on in 30s
<bdale> I don't appear to need a visa for either.
<aj> the one world alliance airlines don't seem to travel to sarajevo, though i need to talk to my travel agent again
<h01ger> bdale, you us-american :)
<marga> bdale: it's been shown that from the list of DC6 attendees more people would need a visa to go to SJJ than to go to EDI.
<moray> Sledge: we may have trouble if a *lot* of Europeans take budget flights to a DebConf in Edinburgh :p
<Sledge> moray: worry about that as/when
<h01ger> moray, same is true for SJJ... (probably even more)
<Ganneff> i think both airports are well connected for the number of people
<Sledge> moving on to (9) accessibility
<bdale> marga: I understand that. I just took the time to research what it would take me to get there, so thought I'd comment. I mentioned here before the meeting that neither country is on the list of places I'm supposed to avoid on behalf of my employer, which is good news.
<Ganneff> 9 is even for both. SJJ has a slight advantage in the hotel, EDI out in the streets with the need for all taxis to have weelchair access. SJJ seems to have a bus for weelchairs for us to use whenever we want. in EDI disabled people most probably need to go to a hotel, not our hostels. (ie together with sponsors that dont take hostels).
<Maulkin> 22:40 <@Jon_uk> (8) summary?
<Sledge> Maulkin: ah, true
* marga nods to Ganneff
<h01ger> Ganneff, the both airports point is not true
<h01ger> while i nod to the accessability point of Ganneff :)
<Ganneff> h01ger: the capacity for the number of people is ok at both locations.
<Sledge> (8) summary: cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people
<Ganneff> h01ger: we have a laughable amnount of people going there.
<h01ger> Ganneff, the capacity yes.
<Sledge> are we agreed on accessibility?
<moray> Ganneff: it sounds like you're implying people would need to take taxis: in Edinburgh the ordinary buses are generally wheelchair accessible too; also because we're in the centre probably no attendees would *need* to take a bus even if they want to see the city
<Ganneff> moray: no. just mentioning the fact.
<Maulkin> Sledge: I'd rate them ==
<Ganneff> accessibility is equal
<h01ger> so both are equal on that
<Sledge> ok, agreed
<Sledge> right
<Sledge> I hope somebody out there is counting these answers
<Maulkin> Crap. ok.
<marga> The main problem is not counting but weighing.
<Sledge> are the 2 teams happy overall with the responses here?
<aj> okay, so clear draw on (5)-catering; (7), and (9)
<vedran_sjj> Sledge: sjj is fine
<h01ger> Sledge, i think cheaper is not the point in 8 (as its 1). but more flights (budgets and less changes) and less visa trouble certainly is.
<Sledge> EDI: happy with the summaries?
<Sledge> h01ger: good point, yes
<aj> different advantages both ways, but no clear winner on (1), and (9)
<marga> aj: I think 9 was declared equal. 1 is actually like 1a and 1b.
<h01ger> aj, wasnt 9 equal
<h01ger> ?!
<aj> sorry
<aj> i mean edi-is-better-due-to-X, sjj-is-better-due-to-Y, but it evens out
* Maulkin is summarising atm
<marga> So, how do we weigh / decide ?
<h01ger> i really cannot follow it :-) (to late) - /me suggest to wait for Maulkins summary..
<h01ger> too late even!
<Maulkin> 1 cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI
<Maulkin> 2 edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already.
<Maulkin> 3 equal
<Maulkin> 4 both acceptable, edi has more potential bandwidth
<Maulkin> 5 both can offer good food
<Maulkin> 6 sjj has advantage
<Maulkin> 7 equal
<Maulkin> 8 cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people
<Maulkin> 9 equal
<Maulkin> I think
* h01ger likes to bring back in memory that we priorized them in order of importance
* Maulkin nods
<Maulkin> I can do some evil scoring thing if you want.
<marga> Maulkin: it depends.
<Maulkin> ie: partial advantage = 0.5, full advantage = 1.
<Maulkin> Times by 10-priority number
<Maulkin> Or someone else do it :)
<Sledge> how do the orga team wish to do this?
<h01ger> Maulkin, go, Maulkin!
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<Maulkin> Or it's a stupid idea.
<Maulkin> I dunno! :)
<marga> I don't know, I don't like scoring, particularly because we didn't really debate the priorities.
* h01ger thinks this is ok-ish - we could also just weight
<vedran_sjj> <bdale> if sjj thinks they're slightly ahead on 3, they seem to be slightly behind on 4, so it probably washes out
<Maulkin> Or we can just do:
<Maulkin> 22:50 <@Igloo> kevc_uk: The local team who dress up in the silliest outfits win?
<bdale> drop the equals, weigh the rest
<marga> So, the points that matter are:
<marga> 1 - cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI
<marga> 2 - edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already.
* sapphire_sjj puts on the silly hat :)
<marga> 6 - sjj has advantage
* h01ger nods. but i really think 2 is not correctly summarized. we had a big local team in .mx too.
<marga> 8 - cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people
<Ganneff> h01ger: no, we had not.
<h01ger> (nodding to bdale that was)
<Ganneff> h01ger: it was said to be there. but wasnt.
<h01ger> Ganneff, no. not in .mx. but before.
<Ganneff> h01ger: here we know its there.
* Signoff: Tincho (Quit: Sayounara)
* h01ger wont start a wdiscussion about single points now
<h01ger> (not more as i already did, sorry for that)
<Maulkin> Quick issue: are we doing this by scoring, or consensus?
<Sledge> consensus would be better, if possible
* h01ger nods
<h01ger> consensus of whom though :)
<Maulkin> Can we try that first?
<h01ger> (tahts always the question)
<aj> i'm not convinced that "more people" balances out the involvement in debian that the uk group have already had; mooch and marga had some specific concerns on that earlier, in particular
<Maulkin> ok...
<Maulkin> General comments/concerns on my summary above please :)
<Maulkin> Are we taking general comments, or just orga?
<marga> Yes, point 2 should be rephrased.
<Maulkin> ok
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<moray> Maulkin: comments from whom? I still think Edinburgh has a definite advantage on 5(b) food outside the venue, since that's a lot of the reason I pressed for it to be *in* the city...
<vedran_sjj> moray: thats debatable
<marga> 2 - EDI have been more involved in prior debconfs, more in Debian. SJJ has very enthusiastic people, only Safir in DebConf5, although they organized big conferences.
<Maulkin> So != ?
<moray> marga: UK people have also been involved in organising big non-Debian conferences, in case you're implying otherwise
<marga> moray: I was not.
<Maulkin> 22:55 <@Hydroxide> a bit of input suitable for replaying: items 1 seems to mostly be a washout; 6 and 8 balance out; in item 2, I think that the involvement in debian is an especially important advantage for edi since this is, after all, a DebConf, not a Free Software Conf.
<h01ger> moray, i think "food outside the venue" is nice (and surely closer in EDI) but i dont think its really much relevant for debconf
<moray> h01ger: ok, bdale said that was part of what he meant by that criterion
<h01ger> Maulkin, could you please repost the rephrased complete list? /me is tired of scrolling.. :)
<Maulkin> Just a sec...
<aj> we're calling (1), (6)+(8), (7) and (9) balanced for both groups, no?
<Maulkin> How's this:
<Maulkin> 1 cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI. Equal
<Maulkin> 2 EDI have been more involved in prior debconfs, more in Debian. SJJ has very enthusiastic people, only Safir in DebConf5, although they organized big conferences. Edi strong advantage
<Maulkin> 3 equal
<bdale> h01ger: it really depends. if you like and/or are satisfied by the group meals, that can work fine. dc4 was like that for me, for example. if you're not, then what's available nearby is very important. in the case of dc6 it was particularly nice to be able to "wander off" in a small group to experience some local food and culture without having to make a big deal about it
<Maulkin> 4 both acceptable, edi has more potential bandwidth. - equal
<Maulkin> 5 both can offer good food - euqal
<Maulkin> 6 sjj stong advantage
<Maulkin> 7 equal
<Maulkin> 8 cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people - edi
<Maulkin> slight advantage
<Maulkin> 9 equal
<Maulkin> Please object to this if you think it's wrong :)
<Maulkin> I'd like to hear from sjj and edi here...
<Maulkin> As to the above summary
<aj> (3), i thought there was a slight advantage to sjj; but i haven't studied either venue in enough detail to say
<vedran_sjj> why is 2 strong advantage for Edi?
<moray> Maulkin: the 'strong' in 6 seems to be new
* h01ger thinks 5 is less important as 2+4 are in favor of EDI and 1+3 are equal.
<aj> (5)-remote food was a slight advantage to edi, i thought too
* h01ger wonders if he maybe thats why _he_ doesnt care that much about 5?
<vedran_sjj> aj: as I said before (and you silenced me), food outside venue is much cheaper in sjj
<moray> aj: obviously I'm partisan, but I didn't feel the working spaces in SJJ were better than what we're proposing - they probably had more carpet, but they seemed more awkward spaces IMO
<aj> oh, sorry, i should've reminded you to repeat that after moray had finished; doh
<h01ger> vedran_sjj, how close is that? walking distance?
<vedran_sjj> h01ger: yes, 5 minutes walk
<marga> vedran_sjj: because, as it was stated before, it is important for the local team to have been involved in previous DebConfs. stockholm had actually said that it was a "requirement" for one of the local-team to have been an organizer of the previous year DebConf. SJJ has only Safir participating in DC5 as a volunteer, not as an organizer. While EDI has a big group of people who have been attendants/volunteers, and Maulkin was an organizer for DC6.
<Maulkin> ok...
<h01ger> and moray hangs out here since idunno
<Maulkin> 1 equal
<Maulkin> 2 EDI strong
<Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight
<Maulkin> 4 equal
<Maulkin> 5 equal
<Maulkin> 6 SJJ stong
<Maulkin> 7 equal
<Maulkin> 8 EDI slight
<Maulkin> 9 equal
<Maulkin> Which leaves:
<Maulkin> 2 EDI strong
<Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight
<Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong
<Maulkin> 8 EDI slight
<aj> (4) and (5) i'd say EDI slight; (8) i'd say EDI "clear"
<Maulkin> 'clear'?
* h01ger supports aj
<aj> strong, but not to say it's more important than the previous priorities
<h01ger> its prio 8 :)
<marga> Actually, I thought that we had evened-out 3 and 4. If 3 is SJJ slight (nobody except vedran_sjj knows why), then 4 is EDI slight.
<Maulkin> aj: ok, strong
<sapphire_sjj> marga Safir has been in orga team for DC6
<Maulkin> It'll be done with priorites anyway
<Maulkin> objections to 4 and 5 edi weak?
<vedran_sjj> Maulkin: yes objection to 5
<aj> yes, likewise
<moray> maulkin: 'edi weak' sounds like you mean 'edinburgh is weak'
<aj> oh wait
<Maulkin> Sorry, s/weak/slight/
<Maulkin> ok...
<vedran_sjj> Maulkin: 4. Edi has no connectivity in hotel rooms
<bdale> I commented on that in my email to -team
* h01ger just noticed that he knows three people wondering what sapphire_sjj did for dc6 - i'm sorry to say this... but
<Maulkin> vedran_sjj: I think that was seen as a advantage as well as a disadvantage
<Ganneff> h01ger: work before debconf on some parts
<bdale> I'm not sure that connectivity in housing is actually a benefit.
<Maulkin> Can we please agree that (3) and (4) cancel each other out?
<moray> Maulkin: well, I think Edinburgh's better on both...
<vedran_sjj> Maulkin: yes it was seen as a way to force people to go to venue, which in sjj is unneccesarry since hotel is the venue
<h01ger> Maulkin, no, i dont agree
<Maulkin> ok.
<Ganneff> this doesnt get us anywhere...
* h01ger nods Ganneff
<h01ger> 5min break?
* marga sighs and nods.
<sapphire_sjj> h01ger, I did gather information, contacted sponsors and worked on the website
<h01ger> sapphire_sjj, ok.
<bdale> vedran_sjj: your point is well taken, but camping out in one's room and being in a public room with others is clearly not socially equivalent
<Maulkin> (1) is equal, agreed?
<aj> yes
<Sledge> yes
<bdale> vedran_sjj: I'm not saying it's a problem to have connectivity in the housing, just that it's not a clear advantage
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* Maulkin waits...
<Maulkin> (7) is equal, agreed?
<aj> yes
<Sledge> yup
<Maulkin> 30 secs
<marga> yes
* Signoff: fjp (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
<Maulkin> (9) is equal, agreed?
<Maulkin> (30 secs)
<aj> yes
<bdale> agreed
<Sledge> yup
<Maulkin> ok, thanks
<Maulkin> Right, now the hard bit :)
<Maulkin> 2: edi strong.
<Maulkin> Agreed?
<aj> yes
<vedran_sjj> no
<h01ger> yes
<Maulkin> (see above for reasoning)
<sapphire_sjj> no
<Sledge> Maulkin: yup
<Maulkin> Ok, we'll come back to 2.
<marga> yes.
<Ganneff> slight
<Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight
<Ganneff> yes
<Maulkin> Agreed?
<moray> Maulkin: I don't get the justification for that yet
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<marga> I don't see the reasoning, but I don't think it's worth the bother discussing it.
<Maulkin> moray: Is that a disgree?
<vedran_sjj> moray: 24/7 availability
<vedran_sjj> moray: video and server rooms
* Maulkin marks 3 as contested
<aj> vedran_sjj: moray's noted several times they've confirmed 24/7 availability for edi
<Maulkin> 4 EDI slight
<h01ger> me not really neither. but if we if give EDI the benifit of the doubt in "2 EDI strong"..., SJJ has 3 slightly
<vedran_sjj> aj: confirmed? thats new
<aj> vedran_sjj: since last week, yes
<vedran_sjj> aj: video and server rooms remain
<marga> yes for 4 EDI slight.
<h01ger> so me takes back what he said before
* Maulkin hands back to Sledge
<Maulkin> Or not.
<Maulkin> Ok.
<Maulkin> No objections to 4.
<Maulkin> 5 EDI slight
<vedran_sjj> Maulkin: 5 no!
<vedran_sjj> Maulkin: based on what?
<moray> vedran_sjj: (no, we have these too, as also said earlier)
<Maulkin> Just state if you have objections please
<Maulkin> Ok. That's on objection
<Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong
<Ganneff> yes
<sapphire_sjj> Maulking, 5 object
<h01ger> Maulkin, so 3 was equal? (as i just read on -dicuss that EDI has 24/7 for server/video as well)
<Maulkin> Sledge: noted
<marga> yes.
<Maulkin> h01ger: It's been contested.
* Maulkin sees no objections to 6
<Maulkin> 8 EDI strong
<Maulkin> Objections?
<aj> sorry, yes to both 6 and 8
<moray> Maulkin: I think strong was over-egging on 6
<aj> as in agree, not yes to objections :)
<h01ger> Maulkin, ? dont know the word "contested"... what is the 3 now? well, i'll wait for the full list
<aj> moray: hostels versus a hotel seems an advantage to sjj to me
<marga> yes to 8.
<Maulkin> moray: Ok, noted.
<h01ger> aj, 6 is SJJ strong?!
<Ganneff> h01ger: yes.
<Maulkin> It's been noted for 6 is in dispute
<Maulkin> 8 please.
<moray> aj: ok, I didn't know the point was qualitative rather than 'is there some accomm. appropriately'
<Maulkin> Edi strong.
<Maulkin> I see no objections
<Sledge> 8 is agreed
<marga> h01ger: having a 4 star hotel that accommodates everyone, instead of two separate hostels sounds like better accomodation to me.
<Maulkin> (sorry, I'm getting annoyed and want to go to bed)
<Maulkin> ok!
<Maulkin> Right, we have 4 contested items. 2,4,5 and 6
<sapphire_sjj> 6 is agreed as well
<aj> is (2) contested except by members of the teams it's referring to?
<h01ger> Maulkin, the contestions from SJJ on 5 have been "revoked" by EDI
<Ganneff> can we do the rest without *both* local teams? (sorry). they only contest the other side then imo.
<Maulkin> 2: Edi strong, objection received from vedran_sjj and sapphire_sjj
* h01ger nods Ganneff
<moray> Ganneff: I'm happy to keep quiet
<moray> Ganneff: just didn't want to do so while my input was expected
<Maulkin> ok.
<Sledge> moray: thanks
<Maulkin> sapphire_sjj: Are you ok with that?
<vedran_sjj> Ganneff: I'll be quiet too
<Ganneff> ok, so both local teams quiet. :)
<Maulkin> 2 EDI strong
* h01ger wonders what the status of 3 is?
<sapphire_sjj> Maulkin, ok
<Maulkin> (30 secs)
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<bdale> item 2 is clearly a question of how the decision-making group feels more than something that can be measured in absolute terms
<Sledge> yup
<Ganneff> i would rate 2 as slight.
<marga> I would rate it as strong
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* h01ger would rate it as stronger than slight at least
<marga> Should we go with semi-strong? slightly-strong?
* h01ger nods marga
<Sledge> yuo
<Maulkin> Ok... semi strong
<Sledge> yup
<aj> strong with noted preferences to slight from ganneff?
* Sledge strangles aj
<Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight
<aj> sorry, i typed slow :)
<Ganneff> and to note it: thats from the meeting with them.
<Ganneff> from the impression i got.
<Maulkin> noted objections from moray
<aj> Ganneff: them = both teams, yes?
<marga> Ganneff: you've been to both places, would you agree that work areas are the same?
<Ganneff> aj: nah. i can rate SJJ higher than i would without meeting them. ie i lower the advantage of beeing involved in debian a bit.
* h01ger wonders what Maulkin noted from moray.
<Ganneff> aj: but keeping a slight advantage for edi
<Sledge> right. Maulkin: next point please
<Maulkin> 23:13 <+moray> Maulkin: I don't get the justification for that yet
<aj> the argument for SJJ slight was that the venue was 24/7 and had video/server rooms 24/7; but since last meeting the edi team seem to have confirmed both those are available in EDI too
<Ganneff> for the work areas - similar space. hotel has some more comfort, but space is ok both sides.
<Maulkin> Ok... is that now equal, or what?
* h01ger thinks so
* marga nods.
<Maulkin> no objections received
<Maulkin> 5 EDI slight *
<Maulkin> objections from SJJ
<marga> I'd say... EDI very slight.
<Ganneff> edi has more pubs/restaurants *neaer* sjj has something near, but due to edi beeing in the city center there are naturally more.
<marga> But they can both provide what we would need.
<aj> aiui they have 24/7 food available, and alternative food available locally; but EDI has morechoices available locally for longer hours
<bdale> cheap taxis in SJJ might mitigate that, but within walking distance is a powerful differentiator
<Maulkin> So is slight "right"?
<h01ger> yes
<bdale> from what I know, EDI slight seems right
<aj> yes
<Sledge> looks like
<Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong
<Ganneff> si
<Maulkin> Objectiosn from a few people
* h01ger nods
<Ganneff> the hotel is an advantage here.
<Maulkin> 23:17 <@h01ger> aj, 6 is SJJ strong?!
<Maulkin> 23:17 <+moray> Maulkin: I think strong was over-egging on 6
<Ganneff> strong due to the 4-star hotel
<Ganneff> and everything in one place.
<Maulkin> So the proposal is slight, instead of strong.
* h01ger nods - must have mistyped that one
<Ganneff> edi has hostels.
<Ganneff> so strong is ok in this point imo.
<Maulkin> Ok... I'll leave it as strong, agreed?
<Ganneff> yes
<marga> yes
<Maulkin> Lat point! :)
<aj> i think strong in the same way travel for edi is strong -- a hostel is acceptable, but a hotel is better, just as we could get to sjj, but it'll be more conveinent to get to edi
* Sledge nods aj
<Sledge> Maulkin: go go go!
* h01ger ment 8 i think
<Maulkin> yes
<Maulkin> 8 EDI strong
<Maulkin> but not contested!
<Maulkin> So!
<Maulkin> 2 EDI strong(ish) *
<Maulkin> Is that Ok with everyone?
<aj> yes
<Ganneff> we had that. make the summary.
<Maulkin> Right, the final (non ==) list is:
<Maulkin> 2 EDI strong(ish)
<Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight
<Maulkin> 4 EDI slight
<Maulkin> 5 EDI slight
<Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong
<Maulkin> 8 EDI strong
<Maulkin> Enjoy.
<aj> hrm? i thought 3 became a draw?
* h01ger nods aj
<Maulkin> (This is weighted, so don't add up stongs/weaks :P)
<Maulkin> sorry.
<Maulkin> 2 EDI strong(ish)
<Maulkin> 4 EDI slight
<Maulkin> 5 EDI slight
<Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong
<Maulkin> 8 EDI strong
<aj> 1,3,7,9 draw
<Maulkin> yes
<Maulkin> The rest dreaw
<Maulkin> *draw
<Sledge> right
<Sledge> decision
<Maulkin> Yes
<Maulkin> Someone from orga make a motion please.
* Sledge nods
* h01ger waves
* Maulkin stabs
* bdale waits patiently
<marga> I wonder what we are waiting for
<h01ger> isnt it obvious?
<bdale> aj
<h01ger> so, its edinburgh. now flame me to death.
<Maulkin> Ok.
<moray> did aj fall asleep again?
<Maulkin> Objections form orga?
<aj> i wish
<Maulkin> *from
* h01ger has dinner atm
<vedran_sjj> I'd like to use this intermission to congratulate Maulkin for excellent leading of this meeting
<sapphire_sjj> no gwlof, no stockholm
<aj> likewise
<Maulkin> It's not over yet...
<Maulkin> :)
<Ganneff> vedran_sjj: you know that most was done by sledge and maulkin, not Maulkin alone?
<Maulkin> But thank you vedran_sjj :)
<aj> thanks also to both teams for sticking around and being very helpful (and being patient with my napping)
<Maulkin> Yes, Sledge++
<marga> vedran_sjj: likewis, I'd like to congratulate you on a great representation from Sarajevo.
<vedran_sjj> thanks marga
<Maulkin> That was far too close.
<Sledge> vedran_sjj and moray: thanks for clear bids and responses to questions tonight
<Maulkin> Can we have two debconfs a year? ::)
* Sledge stabs Maulkin
* Sledge stabs Maulkin again, just in case the first wasn't enough
* h01ger also really says thanks+kudos to both teams, you're presentations and preparations have been real good
<Maulkin> Aww!
<Ganneff> so. now -team has to sort out itself i think. but probably tomorrow...
<aj> so shall we (a) schedule a time to discuss how we do this in future now this decision's out of the way and we don't have any active bids; and (b) can i talk to the sjj guys about stuff sometime too (in english :)?
<h01ger> (damn, maybe i should have skipped that politician like "both teams" here. but i mean it.. and would have said it in any case)
* Sledge nods aj
<Ganneff> aj: a.) no. that should be done at running debconf.
<moray> aj: can someone post an 'official' decision
<Sledge> h01ger: do you really want to have the orga team discussion now?
<Ganneff> aj: by kicking both teams into a room and loosing the key until they have one location only.
<vedran_sjj> aj: b) sure! we'll be around
* broonie_uk is now known as broonie
<Sledge> Maulkin: thanks for doing the minuting and pri tallying, I'll take it back now if you want to run
<Maulkin> Sledge: Can you post a decision to debconf-annouce?
<aj> Ganneff: that's what needs to be discussed
<h01ger> Sledge, no. as much as i hate to postpone it again or rather to have yet another dc meeting soon... i dont think now would be any good
* kevc_uk is now known as kevc
<marga> Ganneff: we might _try_ that on IRC, if we manage to be friendly enough.
<aj> Sledge: yes please do
<Sledge> h01ger: ok, cool
<bdale> it has been approximately 4 hours since this meeting started. I strongly suggest everyone get food and sleep before trying to decide anything else of substance!
* adioe3_sjj is now known as adioe3
* marga now with her DC8-candidate hat.
<Sledge> ok, I'll post an announcement tonight
<Maulkin> oh yeah
<h01ger> Ganneff, no. not next debconf. i dont wanna continue now. remember Tolimar?
<h01ger> (s mail)
* amar_sjj is now known as amar
<Ganneff> h01ger: see my comment at 00:38:12
<Maulkin> ** minutes - see about 2000 lines of backlog and try and condense it. I'm going to have to do this in SPI if I run for secretary, aren't I?
<Ganneff> Sledge: if you want debconf-announce you need me.
<aj> Maulkin: yes
* h01ger greps
<aj> meeting over, demoderate?
<Sledge> Ganneff: ok, cool - let's organise that later
* Sledge nods aj
* Maulkin nods
<Sledge> meeting closed
<marga> Ganneff: we had agreed on deciding the next venue _before_ the current one. But we can discuss it again later on.
<Ganneff> and i guess it should come from the orga, not you.
<marga> YIPPEE!
* Mode change "+o Maulkin" on channel #debconf-team by ChanServ
* Mode change "-m" on channel #debconf-team by Maulkin

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