1. * IRC log started on Mon Jul 10 19:19:34 2006
  2. * * LOG is set to on
  3. * Topic for #debconf-team: meeting is scheduled to be here today - at 18:30 UTC | have some fun and rest until then
  4. * Topic for #debconf-team set by Ganneff!~joerg@ganneff.netop.oftc.net on Mon Jul 10 17:48:26 2006
  5. * Users on #debconf-team: slef sapphire_sjj dzenita_sjj steveq joeyh elvir_sjj fil rleigh Tincho Igloo ez jcristau GyrosGeier incase psn EmxBA_sjj fjp hermanr_ Manoj cmot danielsan amar_sjj gwolf adioe3_sjj vedran_sjj faw Tulitar baruch geser [javamaniac] formorer streuner maxx WombleToo avdwoude luk_ buffoon XentoniX ana Mithrandir anibal__ cpt_nemo Womble2 anibal alphascorpii mooch agi InfraRed mjg59 tarzeau squat hajvan paravoid mlt stockholm azeem codebreaker stargirl abi Jon jvw
  6. * Users on #debconf-team: blarson davewatson h01ger wookey willy Dougie_uk Noodles weasel Sledge Q_ bdale HE helix moray pixie^ broonie pixie aj DaCa nattie Clint Ganneff luciano sTone_heAd coleSLAW mhy Maulkin Tolimar kevc
  7. * amaya (~amaya@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  8. <Q_> Is there a schedule for the meeting somewhere?
  9. <Ganneff> there is no good meeting anyways anymore.
  10. <Clint> has a decision been made yet?
  11. <gwolf> Clint: Yup. We go to Cyprus.
  12. <mooch> Clint: the meeting starts in 5 mins
  13. <mooch> "are we there yet?"
  14. <mooch> "are we there yet?"
  15. <mooch> "are we there yet?"
  16. <pixie> Haha
  17. <Clint> yay, cyprus
  18. * [BA]not_now_john (~BA]not_no@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  19. * Hydroxide (user@Hydroxide.netrep.oftc.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
  20. <slef> Q_: http://people.debian.org/~terpstra/message/20060710.145008.7be5a96f.en.html
  21. <HE> gwolf: Cyprus sounds nice. My sister lives nearby, so I could visit her.
  22. <slef> under "So, where to from here?
  23. <kevc> hmmm...
  24. <kevc> the clock on this system is out :(
  25. * ez is now known as ez_sjj
  26. * InfraRed2 (bigboss@82-41-78-66.cable.ubr10.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined channel #debconf-team
  27. * tech (tech@217-52-48.0503.adsl.tele2.no) has joined channel #debconf-team
  28. * weasel watches the gavel
  29. * moray reappears full
  30. * sapphire_sjj awaits ...
  31. * Sledge grabs food
  32. * kevc drinks coffee
  33. * adioe3_sjj grabs the popcorn
  34. * maxx pushes weasel closer to the gavel
  35. * slef continues watching itv4
  36. <Q_> Hmm.
  37. <Maulkin> Lo
  38. * weasel bangs the gavel on maxx's head
  39. <hermanr_> "We will, we will rock you!"
  40. * sfr (elspeth@miranda.sommitrealweird.co.uk) has joined channel #debconf-team
  41. <incase> Though the debate hasn't yet started, could someone from the EDI team clarify the question I intended to post to debconf-team@l.d.o this afternoon on wether handicapped people will stay at the same hotel/venue as the other devs?
  42. <maxx> *auch* not again! we're not in #oftc-staff
  43. * Amila_sjj (~bono@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  44. * slef waves hello at sfr
  45. <kevc> incase: the venues are all accessible
  46. * sfr wavesback at slef
  47. <pixie> incase: From the hotels we looked at,/I can remember, yes
  48. * adioe3_sjj wonders when will it start?
  49. <moray> kevc: I think incase is asking about the hostels
  50. <kevc> someone else will need to say regarding accomodation
  51. <weasel> aj: .
  52. <moray> kevc: not all the hostels are accessible, it depends which we use
  53. * h01ger waves
  54. <InfraRed2> smartcity is full disabled accessable
  55. <moray> people in wheelchairs would stay in a hotel where some other people were staying though, not on their own
  56. <InfraRed2> i saw the floor plans
  57. * sfr is now known as sfr_uk
  58. * Maulkin pings aj: and Sledge
  59. * Jon is now known as Jon_uk
  60. <incase> Fine, it would be a major downside to me if handicapped needed to go to another ho(s)tel than the other devs.
  61. <mooch> incase: they cannot use the hostals...
  62. * slef raps Maulkin across the kneecaps
  63. <Maulkin> ?
  64. <moray> mooch: as infraRed just said, they can use some of them
  65. <fjp> They probably have a pre-meeting meeting...
  66. <mooch> incase: but other DDs will be there...
  67. <Jon_uk> heh
  68. <mooch> aj: ping
  69. <mooch> Sledge: ping
  70. <sfr_uk> incase: i'm a wheelchair user, and i have no intention of being stuck somewhere on my own
  71. * colin (~colin@spc2-lanc2-0-0-cust10.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) has joined channel #debconf-team
  72. * Sledge is here
  73. <maxx> mooch: *shhhhhh* #debian-cabal is working on the decision :P
  74. <Sledge> just trying to find aj
  75. <Jon_uk> evening Sledge
  76. * Users on #debconf-team: colin Amila_sjj sfr_uk tech InfraRed2 Hydroxide [BA]not_now_john amaya slef sapphire_sjj dzenita_sjj steveq joeyh elvir_sjj fil rleigh Tincho Igloo ez_sjj jcristau GyrosGeier incase psn EmxBA_sjj fjp hermanr_ Manoj cmot danielsan amar_sjj gwolf adioe3_sjj vedran_sjj faw Tulitar baruch geser [javamaniac] formorer streuner maxx WombleToo avdwoude luk_ buffoon XentoniX ana Mithrandir anibal__ cpt_nemo Womble2 anibal alphascorpii mooch agi InfraRed mjg59 tarzeau
  77. * Users on #debconf-team: squat hajvan paravoid mlt stockholm azeem codebreaker stargirl abi Jon_uk jvw blarson davewatson h01ger wookey willy Dougie_uk Noodles weasel Sledge Q_ bdale HE helix moray pixie^ broonie pixie aj DaCa nattie Clint Ganneff luciano sTone_heAd coleSLAW mhy Maulkin Tolimar kevc
  78. <Tolimar> maxx: No it isn't. Everyone is idling there.
  79. <mooch> good
  80. <Sledge> sorry for the delay...
  81. <maxx> Tolimar: isn't that the point?
  82. <slef> Why is no-one labelled _edi?
  83. <bdale> Sledge: he may well have fallen asleep?
  84. * InfraRed2 is now known as InfraRed_EDI
  85. <helix> call him
  86. <Maulkin> slef: We can't be bothered?
  87. * EmxBA (~emx@SE400.PPPoE-2388.sa.bih.net.ba) has joined channel #debconf-team
  88. <GyrosGeier> I thought the cabal met in #handwaving
  89. * bdale looks at gworldclock...
  90. <Sledge> bdale: that's what I'm worrying, yes
  91. <Jon_uk> slef: the convention in the last meeting was _uk for the edinburgh bid
  92. <maxx> we know them by know, I don't think that ridicculos nickchangeing is necessary anymore...
  93. <sfr_uk> slef: we were asked to label _uk
  94. <slef> Maulkin: it would help make the log clearer.
  95. <moray> slef: do we need to be? last time I think that just made things more confrontational
  96. <maxx> 2c
  97. * InfraRed_EDI is now known as InfraRed_uk
  98. * kevc is now known as kevc_uk
  99. * Mode change "+o Ganneff" on channel #debconf-team by ChanServ
  100. * Mode change "+o gwolf" on channel #debconf-team by Ganneff
  101. <Jon_uk> maxx: I think it helps to see at-a-glance if someone is on one of the teams or not
  102. * broonie is now known as broonie_uk
  103. * maher_ (~maher@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  104. <helix> what if we're just cheerleading for one side?
  105. <Jon_uk> I'll go with whatever the chairs suggest for this one
  106. <moray> I also was under the impression this meeting was meant to discuss more than just a fight between two venues
  107. * maher_ is now known as maher_sjj
  108. <slef> Jon_uk: that seems inaccurate, as moray pointed out on-list that Edinburgh's not London.
  109. <Ganneff> so, to summarise feelings from at least me and gwolf before the "meeting" starts: now with the removed delegation debconf is back to his old state, ie no debian project anymore. so - let those who do the work decide and move on with this and stop the farce...
  110. <h01ger> Sledge, are u calling aj now ? wow we gonna start this?
  111. <Jon_uk> slef: yup, and London is not Edinburgh, but both are UK
  112. * colin is now known as Colin_uk
  113. * Clint is now known as Clint_cyprus
  114. <h01ger> s/wow/now/
  115. * EmxBA is now known as EmxBA_sj1
  116. * Signoff: EmxBA_sjj (Read error: Operation timed out)
  117. <gwolf> Yup. There might be no cabal anymore, but that's just good news ;-)
  118. * EmxBA_sj1 is now known as EmxBA_sjj
  119. <Sledge> h01ger: I'm just trying to raise him now
  120. <Ganneff> Sledge: see your query please
  121. <gwolf> ...Shit, I get a "now you" message from ganneff ;-)
  122. * Signoff: tech (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  123. <Sledge> if no answer, we'll start without him in a couple of minutes
  124. <h01ger> let's say at 20:45?
  125. * Clint_cyprus is now known as Clint
  126. <Tolimar> Sledge: Couldn't we start with the meeting without aj? I guess we could try to discuss ""what are the important issues in running a DebConf"; if he wakes up, he can start ;)
  127. <gwolf> Ok... Basically, we do feel most of the team that has worked towards Debconf year after year is _really_ not happy with the way this is going.
  128. * kaol (~kari@sammakko.yok.utu.fi) has joined channel #debconf-team
  129. <Q_> h01ger: 18:45 UTC you mean.
  130. <h01ger> this is useless waiting and i could finish a important mail i didnt do all day...
  131. <h01ger> Q_, sure
  132. <Ganneff> h01ger: read your query
  133. <h01ger> sorry for the eurocentrism
  134. <Sledge> please, 18:45 UTC
  135. <slef> Ganneff: in that case, just make the decision and make it happen. He who does wins, as the do-ocrats say.
  136. <gwolf> Debconf has never been an official Debian project, and we now know why - Because it seems it works out when done by a small group that _knows_ _what_ _to_ _do_
  137. <maxx> just tell us which coin it was that has been throwsn
  138. * h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "meeting has been moved a little bit to 18:45 UTC"
  139. * kevc_uk notes he doesn't want to get involved in whether debconf is part of debian or not
  140. <gwolf> I don't want to dismiss everybody who is interested in joining the work...
  141. <bdale> gwolf: that doesn't actually differentiate it from most Debian sub-projects, though
  142. <maxx> so we can blame it on the right national bank
  143. <gwolf> But really, I do trust completely what I have read from the rest of our team...
  144. <h01ger> gwolf, with that attitude you do (dismiss me at least)
  145. <bdale> almost everything good gets done when a small group that knows what to do just does it...
  146. <gwolf> And we reached a stupid point where all of the people that went to visit the proposed venues, in private or in public, have said they don't want to go on with this
  147. <Ganneff> h01ger: no. now without delegation we want a (productive) meeting of all those that actually work on a debconf
  148. <Ganneff> and as such know what to do.
  149. <gwolf> h01ger: I was telling them just before that you were the one _very_ important missing piece :)
  150. * marga (~marga@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  151. <marga> Hi. Sorry for not being here, I had a power outage.
  152. <gwolf> The thing is, we now have a couple dozens people here trying to decide on something that hsould already have been decided...
  153. <helix> it's ok, it hasn't started yet...
  154. <maxx> marga: 18:45 UTC now
  155. <gwolf> And creating a _very_ uncomfortable climate
  156. <stockholm> hi
  157. <gwolf> So... Well, it has landed on my hands, as the others are unable to participate
  158. * Maulkin hugs marga
  159. * tech (tech@217-52-48.0503.adsl.tele2.no) has joined channel #debconf-team
  160. * gregoa (~gregoa@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  161. * psn is now known as psn_uk
  162. <gwolf> Ok, we now have Ganneff, stockholm, marga, h01ger, Tolimar, Maulkin and me looking at this :)
  163. <gwolf> I no longer feel _that_ lonely
  164. <Hydroxide> gwolf: well, doing the meeting in private excludes all the people who attend the conference who aren't on the orga team, and the attendees should have some input too
  165. * h01ger is not interested in being part of a cabal. and fwiw i share tolimars feeling he outlined in his latest mail.
  166. <bdale> gwolf: the other perspective, of course, is that there wouldn't be dozens of people here trying to make a decision if a decision had already been taken. right?
  167. <HE> Ganneff,gwolf: So what you are actually telling us is that this meeting isn't needed and other people will decide?
  168. <Ganneff> h01ger: this is not cabal, this is the people working on debconf.
  169. * sladen (paul@starsky.19inch.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
  170. <Tolimar> okay, I'm off.
  171. <gwolf> Hydroxide: Right. But sometimes, a decision must be taken, end of story. It will always piss some people off.
  172. * sladen is now known as sladen_uk
  173. * Tolimar has left channel #debconf-team
  174. <Maulkin> As a side note, I'm not going to add in any specific input as to the choice of venue, as I'm unbiased.
  175. <h01ger> Ganneff, ic. thank for telling me :(
  176. <Q_> So, from what I understand, we don't actually need aj or Sledge?
  177. <mooch> gwolf: thanks
  178. <gwolf> bdale: Well, yes, but it could not be taken because of that!
  179. <Ganneff> HE: no, this channel should decide. those that are usually working on debconf.
  180. <bdale> I've found the whole sequence of events since the venue meeting at dc6 really amazing and disappointing. I'm hoping we can put that all behind us, figure out a good choice, and move forward together from here.
  181. <mjg59> Maulkin: Unbiased, or biased?
  182. <Ganneff> Q_: yes, thats what we want. to take it back to the debconf team.
  183. <Maulkin> mjg59: Sorry, yes, biased :)
  184. <HE> Ganneff: Without the dozens of people who haven't done so in the past, but have joined for the discussion announced about this?
  185. <Hydroxide> gwolf: I agree it should have been decided a while ago
  186. <InfraRed_uk> has the meeting started?
  187. * Maulkin nods at bdale
  188. <gwolf> HE: I'm telling that some people in the list I just gave (sorry for uncompleteness, shit), are just throwing the towel
  189. <h01ger> InfraRed, no
  190. <h01ger> InfraRed, no
  191. <h01ger> InfraRed, no
  192. * sladen_uk is biased, but neutral regarding the result.
  193. * h01ger sighs
  194. <Jon_uk> InfraRed_uk: starts at :45
  195. <gwolf> because they (and I include myself in this) really don't agree with the way this is going.
  196. <InfraRed_uk> it .45 according to my watch :(
  197. <mooch> 21:43 according to pool.ntp.org
  198. <h01ger> a meeting needs moderation, esp. such a big one. without moderators its silly to start.
  199. <kevc_uk> InfraRed_uk: ntp disagrees
  200. <Hydroxide> :44 here
  201. <Q_> InfraRed: Then it's off by atleast 1 minute.
  202. <psn_uk> Jon_uk: starts when Aj shows up
  203. <gwolf> ok, so, please the more eloquent and decided people...
  204. <Sledge> no sign of aj anywhere that I can find
  205. <marga> h01ger: aren't you the moderator?
  206. * [BA]not_now_john is now known as not_now_john_sjj
  207. <gwolf> Ganneff, stockholm... Please speak
  208. <Sledge> and he doesn't have a phone number in db.d.o
  209. * gigio (~rodrigo@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  210. <Jon_uk> win move 2
  211. <gwolf> h01ger: please do so as well
  212. <Ganneff> so. lets start the meeting of the team.
  213. <h01ger> marga, i was asked to do it and then asked not to do it...
  214. <helix> I have his number but my mobile is at home, of course
  215. <marga> h01ger: ok.
  216. <helix> Sledge: one moment, actually..
  217. <stockholm> gwolf: i am not sure what to say. i wrote to team recently with my thoughts
  218. <h01ger> stockholm, where?
  219. <Sledge> helix: he'll have to catch up
  220. <stockholm> h01ger: -team
  221. <Ganneff> stockholm: a minute ago.
  222. * Hydroxide thought Sledge and aj were running this meeting, or Sledge alone in the absence of aj
  223. <Maulkin> Is everyone happy with h01ger moderating?
  224. <gwolf> stockholm: Ok. You said "I give up", in short words. But here I want to pledge for things to run as they used to
  225. <sladen_uk> Jon_uk: /set actlist_moves true
  226. <Ganneff> Hydroxide: you missed a part of backlog.
  227. <Maulkin> Or what?
  228. <gwolf> You know, if you feel that AJ is pushing for the wrong side, PUSH BACK
  229. <InfraRed_uk> no objections here
  230. * Mode change "+o h01ger" on channel #debconf-team by ChanServ
  231. <stockholm> gwolf: i am listening and watch how it turns out.
  232. <Ganneff> Hydroxide: we are just taking the force back into the teams (not delegates) hands
  233. <Maulkin> There you go h01ger
  234. <mjg59> "wrong side"?
  235. <gwolf> stockholm: The thing is that if you and we all listen, nothing will "just happen"
  236. * h01ger doesnt think its useful to start now. really. lets wait for aj, or rather try to reach him again. its silly to start something now and in 15min when he arrives go back orsideways or whatever
  237. <marga> I'm happy with h01ger moderating.
  238. * amaya too
  239. <sladen_uk> gwolf: and if we all bitch, nothing will happen and everyone will be annoyed with each other aswell
  240. <moray> bdale, Sledge: there seem to be at least two meetings trying to happen here now, maybe they should be split
  241. <stockholm> gwolf: well, i am interesting to hear from e.g. bdale what he thinks. and aj said he asked many people for advice.
  242. * h01ger wonders what topic or order or whatever he should moderate.
  243. <stockholm> i see him taking debconf to some new form and wants to make it a payed conf.
  244. * kevc_uk is in agreement with moray
  245. <Hydroxide> Ganneff: yeah, as moray said, the team was planning a meeting here, and the DPL/Sledge were planning a meeting here
  246. <stockholm> i wonder how people think about that
  247. <h01ger> could we please postpone the start another 15min?
  248. <amaya> is the voicing/unvoicing h01ger proposed doable atm?
  249. <maxx> h01ger: reboot?
  250. <gwolf> Ok. And I don't know what to do, but am angry at what I saw in the last 20 minutes :-/
  251. <bdale> moray: based on aj's email, I was assuming he and Sledge would call the meeting to order. since aj is not here, perhaps he fell asleep (it is something like 04:30 local for him), I'm not sure what to expect.
  252. <Ganneff> h01ger: why?
  253. <h01ger> maxx, yes! that always help
  254. <Sledge> right
  255. <Sledge> let's start
  256. <helix> hum
  257. <Sledge> item 1
  258. <h01ger> Sledge, do you have a agenda somewhere?
  259. <Sledge> what are the priorities for debconf?
  260. <Sledge> h01ger: aj's mail
  261. <h01ger> Sledge, do you want to moderate?
  262. <bdale> stockholm: I think you're mis-interpreting aj, and/or being intentionally divisive with that sort of question
  263. <Ganneff> wrong tiopic. this meeting is about dc7 location.
  264. <Q_> Sledge: So, now you're moderating?
  265. <Sledge> Q_: I guess so
  266. <Maulkin> Any objections to Sledge moderating please?
  267. <Ganneff> yes
  268. * h01ger thinks that was quite a long mail for a agenda, but if Sledge can handle this
  269. <Ganneff> i object to sledge and aj
  270. * sgran (steve@lobefin.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
  271. <stockholm> bdale: i dont try to divisive
  272. <stockholm> what ever that means (c:
  273. <marga> h01ger is moderating. We were going to decide about dc7.
  274. <bdale> stockholm: creating a division
  275. <Ganneff> the nmeeting is simple: decide if its EDI or SJJ. nothing else, thats enough todo
  276. <stockholm> bdale: as in distracting from the problem at hand?
  277. <marga> Sledge: I really like you... But please don't take over our meeting.
  278. <jvw> stockholm: can you please state your opinion as de-facto lead debconf org, who should be moderating and chairing this meeting now?
  279. <Ganneff> h01ger: could you please start with this?
  280. <h01ger> if i am moderating i would like to tell Ganneff to stop this and that we follow Sledges agenda
  281. <jvw> stockholm: we seem to have disagreement
  282. <stockholm> jvw: aj undelegated me.
  283. <bdale> stockholm: as in forcing people to decide between black and white when the answer is probably gray
  284. <Ganneff> h01ger: in that case you dont want me to work for debconf anymore
  285. * Tolimar (schmehl@aegir.ftbfs.de) has joined channel #debconf-team
  286. <stockholm> bdale: ah. right, could be.
  287. <jvw> stockholm: yes, but that's not relevant about this channel
  288. <Sledge> do people want to have a productive discussion, or should we give up now?
  289. <GyrosGeier> should I moderate?
  290. <Ganneff> Sledge: i would like if you give up and we go on.
  291. <GyrosGeier> s/I /&try to /
  292. <stockholm> GyrosGeier: you seem to be qualified. (c:
  293. * fil is now known as fil_uk
  294. <jvw> Let's get this meeting started, and let's let Sledge moderate this, and chair this -- as per AJ's mail
  295. <marga> Sledge: I do want a productive discussion. I don't think that stating priorities about debconf is a productive discussion.
  296. <Hydroxide> Ganneff: you're being very uncompromising, and compromise is what is needed here from all parties
  297. <jvw> lacking aj himself
  298. <h01ger> Ganneff, if you take it like this, i'm really sorry but i do want to follow ajs proposal - it doesnt make sense to throw everything over again now
  299. <marga> GyrosGeier: we have too many volunteers for moderation.
  300. <Sledge> I'll take it
  301. <Ganneff> h01ger: the thing is easy. we just needed to decide about the location. now aj and sledge want to change the whole thing
  302. <maxx> no, a compromise is a lose-lose situation. a solution is what is needed
  303. <h01ger> Ganneff, if you only want to decide about the location, i think Tolimar and me are out as well.
  304. <GyrosGeier> marga, the point is that I'm totally neutral as I haven't followed any discussion lately
  305. <moray> Ganneff: how can you claim to have that meeting, aftr e.g. stockholm's last mail?
  306. * Mode change "+o Sledge" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  307. * Mode change "+m" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  308. * Mode change "-m" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  309. <Sledge> POINT ONE
  310. * Mode change "-o Sledge" on channel #debconf-team by ChanServ
  311. <stockholm> i would support sleges moderation
  312. <Sledge> priorities
  313. <Sledge> one at a time, PLEASE
  314. * Signoff: InfraRed_uk (Read error: Operation timed out)
  315. <stockholm> (what about those in the checklist, that we agreed on?)
  316. * Yoe (~wouter@samba.grep.be) has joined channel #debconf-team
  317. <Sledge> what precisely are the priorities that we should be using in deciding?
  318. <Sledge> stockholm: good point
  319. <vedran_sjj> I basically agree with bdales priority list
  320. * h01ger really thinks about following his proposal about +m and voice for the team and local leaders..
  321. <Sledge> has everybody ready bdale's list?
  322. <Maulkin> ** minutes Sledge asks for priorities that we should be using in deciding the location for debconf.
  323. <slef> Where's bdale's list?
  324. <Sledge> h01ger: please go ahead and do that
  325. <Maulkin> slef: On the -team mailing list
  326. <slef> h01ger--
  327. * h01ger explains to the others that Maulkin just toke a note for the minutes
  328. <marga> http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060705.181923.927c1bfa.en.html
  329. * h01ger is happy about GyrosGeier and does as planned
  330. <Jon_uk> marga: thanks
  331. <marga> I think Bdale's priorities are quite alright.
  332. * Mode change "+m" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  333. * Mode change "+v marga" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  334. * Mode change "+v stockholm" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  335. * Mode change "+v gwolf" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  336. * Mode change "+v sapphire_sjj" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  337. * jvw has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "Meeting in progress || Sledge chairs || Topic 1: What are the priorities"
  338. * Mode change "+v moray" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  339. * Mode change "+o Sledge" on channel #debconf-team by ChanServ
  340. * Mode change "+v alphascorpii" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  341. * Mode change "+v bdale" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  342. * Mode change "+v aj" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  343. * Mode change "+t" on channel #debconf-team by ChanServ
  344. * Mode change "+v avdwoude" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  345. <Sledge> any objections to any of those items?
  346. <moray> I haven't thought deeply about the ordering, but I felt I agreed with bdale's list when I read it
  347. <Sledge> anythings that should be added?
  348. * Signoff: dzenita_sjj (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  349. <stockholm> the priorities are in a differnet form at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckListhttp://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckList
  350. * Mode change "+v faw" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  351. <stockholm> sorry, bad paste
  352. * h01ger wonders who else
  353. * Mode change "-o Sledge" on channel #debconf-team by ChanServ
  354. <stockholm> http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckList
  355. <stockholm> font size indicates the importance
  356. <marga> I think it lacks something about accessibility, but the rest really seems to reflect my thoughts... Although I'd probably go with a different order.
  357. * Mode change "+v Maulkin" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  358. * Mode change "+v vedran_sjj" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  359. <h01ger> vedran_sjj asked me to give him voice in case sapphire_sjj has connectifity probs
  360. <marga> <slef> there's nothing about orga on that list, whereas it seems the problems debconf has worst today are orga
  361. <bdale> h01ger: Sledge should have voice?
  362. * Signoff: sapphire_sjj (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  363. * Mode change "+v Sledge" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  364. <h01ger> sorry Sledge, i thought i gave it to you first
  365. <Sledge> h01ger: fine
  366. <Sledge> marga: do you mean central orga, or local orga?
  367. * Mode change "+v Tolimar" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  368. <marga> It was slef, but I think he means local.
  369. <bdale> marga: when I wrote that email, I was trying to "stay above" what I knew of the issues in the orga team, and I certainly don't know all of the issues in the team regardless
  370. * h01ger didnt see Tolimar coming back
  371. * sapphire (~sapphire@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  372. <Sledge> marga: ah, ok
  373. * Mode change "+v sapphire" on channel #debconf-team by h01ger
  374. * streuner has left channel #debconf-team
  375. <Sledge> ok, that's a fair enough addition
  376. <marga> So, having a strong, mature, experienced local team is a priority. An important one.
  377. <bdale> I easily agree with that
  378. <Sledge> ok, where does it fit in the list?
  379. <bdale> I'd place it after affordable and the trappings of a good working environment, but ahead of almost everything else
  380. <Sledge> that matches my own idea; anybody else?
  381. <gwolf> Ok, so we go back to the beginning :-/ Sorry, I cannot skip the point that I'm angry - we are going over the same points over and over!
  382. * sapphire is now known as sapphire_sjj
  383. * Maulkin agrees
  384. <Ganneff> yes. its useless
  385. <gwolf> Ordering again the priorities is useless.
  386. <Maulkin> (with bdale's point)
  387. <gwolf> We have went over them a hundred times.
  388. <Ganneff> thats what you get when you let those people run it.
  389. <marga> Ok. Priorities done.
  390. <marga> Let's move on.
  391. <stockholm> Ganneff: dont do this, it does not help currently
  392. * h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "Meeting in progress || Sledge chairs || Topic 1: What are the priorities | /msg h01ger for voice in case you have been involved in debconf-orga or have a question | contribution"
  393. <Sledge> ok, it seems we're happy enough with the ordering
  394. <Sledge> which makes the priorities:
  395. <h01ger> the meeting ordering ?
  396. <Sledge> "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
  397. <Sledge> good working spaces
  398. <Sledge> strong, mature, experienced local team
  399. <Sledge> excellant network connectivity
  400. <Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
  401. <Sledge> suitabile housing in close proximity
  402. <Sledge> presentation facilities
  403. <Sledge> travel logistics
  404. <Sledge> does that work for people?
  405. * ore (~romain@yeast.orebokech.com) has joined channel #debconf-team
  406. * h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "Meeting in progress || Sledge chairs || Topic 1: What are the priorities | /msg h01ger for voice in case you have been involved in debconf-orga or have a question or contribution | join #debconf-team-discuss "
  407. <stockholm> i would move up the local team, actuallz.
  408. <Sledge> stockholm: to which position?
  409. <marga> accesibility is soft of missing, although it's more like a general thing.
  410. <bdale> stockholm: still after affordable, or before?
  411. * mejo (~jonas@dslb-084-058-147-174.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
  412. <stockholm> 2nd
  413. * h01ger thinks the whole debconf-orga-lead topic should be moved up. or at least be present. maybe its good to have it in the end, or maybe not
  414. * martin_ (~martin@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  415. <Maulkin> marga: I think that can be derived from the otehr items :)
  416. <bdale> marga: at least in my part of the world, it is mostly taken as a given part of the context. but I am certainly perfectly ok with it being an explicit priority.
  417. * Signoff: Tincho (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by martin_)))
  418. * martin_ is now known as Tincho
  419. * streuner (~streuner@p54A5E24B.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
  420. * h01ger thinks bith venues are sufficiently accessible. Ganneff, otavio (is not here..) ?
  421. * InfraRed is now known as InfraRed_uk
  422. <gwolf> bdale: This time we failed in that regard because it was not such a given :)
  423. <Sledge> ok, let's add accessibility to make it clear
  424. <bdale> marga: however, in practical terms, it doesn't look like accessibility is a significant differentiator between the two proposals for dc7
  425. <bdale> gwolf: good point
  426. <Ganneff> h01ger: SJJ has advantages
  427. <marga> bdale: no, I know.
  428. <Ganneff> h01ger: but EDI also, depends where you look
  429. <Ganneff> both are good
  430. <Sledge> accessibility priority level?
  431. <h01ger> Ganneff, ok. but do we need this as a topic?
  432. <gwolf> they are quite leveled, so.. :)
  433. <Ganneff> no.
  434. * vorlon (~vorlon@dsl093-039-086.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
  435. <Ganneff> both are fine vor debconf.
  436. <h01ger> good
  437. <stockholm> i would give it level 7 or so
  438. <stockholm> but in this caes it does not matter
  439. <bdale> Sledge: it seems like the important thing is for it to be on the list so it isn't forgotten, not so much where it is on the list
  440. <Sledge> ok, let's just add it to the list
  441. <h01ger> is this thetopic list or the priorities?
  442. <Maulkin> Does this need quickly wiki-ing?
  443. <h01ger> Maulkin, please do create a topic wiki page
  444. <Maulkin> kk
  445. <bdale> h01ger: the priorities. I think the /topic is fine
  446. * zumbi (~zumbi@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  447. <Sledge> list by my reckoning is now:
  448. <Sledge> "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
  449. <Sledge> strong, mature, experienced local team
  450. <Sledge> good working spaces
  451. <Sledge> excellant network connectivity
  452. <Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
  453. <Sledge> suitabile housing in close proximity
  454. <Sledge> presentation facilities
  455. <Sledge> travel logistics
  456. <Sledge> accessibility
  457. <Sledge> anything more/less?
  458. <h01ger> bdale, the topics of this meeting i ment. not the /topic :)
  459. <h01ger> so this is priorities?
  460. <stockholm> what about continuity?
  461. * Yoe has left channel #debconf-team
  462. <stockholm> i think it is important for a complex thing like debconf
  463. <Sledge> stockholm: is that actually a separate priority, or just part of the background organisation?
  464. <Tolimar> stockholm: what do you mean by "continuity"? (I know what the word means, but in this context of venue decission I don't understand what you mean.)
  465. <stockholm> Sledge: i think it should be considered
  466. * testni_hamo2_sjj (~teha2@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  467. * steveq has left channel #debconf-team
  468. * Signoff: kaol (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
  469. <stockholm> Tolimar: if you change too many factors at once in a conplex system you certainly have a uncontroled state.
  470. <marga> stockholm: I think we are stating the priorities about choosing a location, not about what the team has to do better.
  471. <Tolimar> stockholm: Ah, okay. Thanks.
  472. <stockholm> Tolimar: continuity means that it location is not radically different to everthing before, which invalidates what we know how a debconf works
  473. <Maulkin> http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList
  474. <aj> (so, apparently it took me 1h30 to realise that alarm meant "wake up"... 4:30am meetings are teh suck)
  475. <bdale> stockholm: hrm. we've had some pretty large differences in the venues to date, though, haven't we?
  476. * h01ger waves to aj - good morning :)
  477. <bdale> aj: caffeine is good
  478. <Maulkin> ** minutes a list of priorites exists at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList
  479. <h01ger> aj, we have a list of priorities for choosing the venue, but no real agenda for this meeting.
  480. <moray> can we pause a couple of minutes for aj to read scrollback and chime in?
  481. <stockholm> bdale: actually they were similar to some degree.
  482. <gwolf> aj: All my respect for coming out of bed that early :)
  483. * h01ger says yes to moray
  484. <h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
  485. <h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
  486. <h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
  487. <h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
  488. <h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
  489. <h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
  490. <bdale> stockholm: true enough
  491. <Maulkin> ** minutes - general - both venues seem approx equal in accessability fronts, it: both acceptable.
  492. <h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
  493. <h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
  494. <h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
  495. <h01ger> nuff said?
  496. <marga> Pause, but could we please be told what's going to follow, please?
  497. <h01ger> or do i need to take voices away? :)
  498. <h01ger> marga, discussing the agenda of this meeting?!
  499. <stockholm> will aj beep once he is done?
  500. <h01ger> 19:20 is bit enough?
  501. <h01ger> beep even
  502. * buxy (~raphael@arrakeen.ouaza.com) has joined channel #debconf-team
  503. <aj> beep?
  504. <stockholm> visual bell.
  505. * kaol (~kari@sammakko.yok.utu.fi) has joined channel #debconf-team
  506. <aj> xxx ?
  507. <moray> aj: do you have anything to say about your intentions for this meeting, etc., before it re-starts?
  508. <marga> So, the next step is compare the venues according to the priority list?
  509. <h01ger> .oO( oh well... me thinks other people might be afk, but... it started already )
  510. * h01ger is ok with it
  511. <marga> h01ger: I'm just asking.
  512. * h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "/topic make a agenda | /msg h01ger for voice in case you have been involved in debconf-orga or have a question or contribution | join #debconf-team-discuss "
  513. <h01ger> marga, np
  514. <h01ger> aj, please let us come up with an agenda first
  515. <aj> okay, so we still have UK and SJJ people around right?
  516. <Maulkin> aj: Yes
  517. <sapphire_sjj> yes
  518. <aj> i see moray (but no moray_uk...)
  519. <vedran_sjj> yes
  520. <h01ger> aj, so two topics like in your mail or what?
  521. * bdale has left channel #debconf-team
  522. * bdale (bdale@winfree.gag.com) has joined channel #debconf-team
  523. * Mode change "+v bdale" on channel #debconf-team by Ganneff
  524. <aj> so, what i thought (back when i was last awake...) would be interesting, would be seeing what the SJJ thought EDI's strenghts were (the areas in whcih they'd have the most problems matching or beating) that matter for debian, and vice-versa; and seeing what SJJ and EDI thought there own weaknesses were?
  525. <bdale> oops, f'ing mouse
  526. <Maulkin> :)
  527. <Sledge> bdale: doh! :-)
  528. <vedran_sjj> ok should I go?
  529. <h01ger> aj, agenda first. otherwise... its stupid
  530. * h01ger really really wants clearness on the agenda
  531. * h01ger really really wants clearness on the agenda
  532. <aj> moray, sapphire_sjj: are you happy to do that in a few minutes?
  533. <sapphire_sjj> aj, vedran_sjj will be our speaker
  534. <stockholm> will there be a "native speaker" bonus?
  535. <Sledge> sapphire_sjj: ok, cool
  536. <h01ger> aj, if you take over, please say so, dont just do it :(
  537. * h01ger shuts up
  538. <aj> sapphire_sjj: oh, okay, thanks
  539. <aj> vedran_sjj, moray: are you happy to do that in a few minutes?
  540. <Maulkin> ** minutes <+aj> so, what i thought (back when i was last awake...) would be interesting, would be seeing what the SJJ thought EDI's strenghts were (the areas in whcih they'd have the most problems matching or beating) that matter for debian, and vice-versa; and seeing what SJJ and EDI thought there own weaknesses were?
  541. <Maulkin> ** minutes vedran_sjj and moray representing
  542. <stockholm> why is this better then comparing according priorities?
  543. <marga> I think it might be interesting, but are we doing the comparison against priorities or not?
  544. * fjp has left channel #debconf-team
  545. <gwolf> because it takes longer and gets us back to the same points again?
  546. <aj> sigh
  547. <bdale> if the two teams are willing and are honest about it, we could learn something about each proposal
  548. <stockholm> aj: i believe there might be good reasons. i just dont see them yet
  549. * h01ger wanted to suggest stockholm and gwolf to follow the agenda. so i think i will tell aj again to first discuss the agenda of this meeting and the procedure :) (so we then can make offtopic people quiet ;)
  550. <stockholm> aj: if you tell us how you imagine how this can work out well this way we might see the advantage
  551. <aj> sorry, i need to know if moray/someone from EDI's willing to do the above
  552. <moray> aj: yes, I was waiting for the interruption to be over
  553. <aj> thanks
  554. <stockholm> who is chair now?
  555. * Sledge will continue on
  556. <stockholm> thanks
  557. * leo8 (DJThor@SE400.PPPoE-2081.sa.bih.net.ba) has joined channel #debconf-team
  558. <Sledge> agenda item 3 - teams compare their bids
  559. * h01ger thinks we either go with the agenda from ajs mail or the one we started here while he was asleep. chairs please go. i dont chair anymore
  560. <Sledge> point out strengths of the opposing bid, and weaknesses in their own
  561. * leo8 is now known as leo8_sjj
  562. <Sledge> s/item 2/item 3/, sorry
  563. <Sledge> s/item 3/item 2/, sorry
  564. * Sledge screams at his poor faiing fingers
  565. <aj> f4f18f855ac7240b5e4ebb7c5771e8e74f563682; Sledge: heads or tails?
  566. <stockholm> (c:
  567. <Sledge> heads
  568. <aj> echo 'heads = sarajevo goes first' | sha1sum
  569. <Sledge> later items:
  570. <Sledge> _limited_ questions for the 2 teams
  571. <Sledge> (item 3)
  572. <vedran_sjj> ok I'd like to do EDI's strengths and SJJ weakness at the same time
  573. <vedran_sjj> is it ok?
  574. <aj> sounds fair; moray?
  575. <moray> I'm not sure what the question is precisely, but seems fine
  576. <Sledge> item 4: weigh up bids against priorities
  577. <Sledge> item 5: ***decision***
  578. <Sledge> people happy with that agenda?
  579. <Ganneff> ...
  580. <sapphire_sjj> yes\
  581. <aj> vedran_sjj: okay, 5m on strengths; 5m on weaknesses once sledge says okay; then same for edi team (in reverse), then we'll move on to clarifications from everyone
  582. <h01ger> Sledge, aj: thats it? no orga-team topic?
  583. * Maulkin suggests 4a: comments from orga-team
  584. <h01ger> (sorry for reacting so late)
  585. <Maulkin> Fairly stongly.
  586. <aj> vedran_sjj: the aim at this point is for you guys to demonstrate you know what you're talking about and are able to analyse your own problems as well as just advocate for your bid
  587. <Maulkin> *strongly
  588. <Sledge> Maulkin: yup, add that
  589. <Maulkin> This need wiki-ing?
  590. <Sledge> please
  591. <Sledge> anything else for agenda?
  592. <aj> clarifications from everyone includes from the orga team
  593. <h01ger> Sledge, yes. see above. orgateam/delegates
  594. <h01ger> this somewhat is crashed atm
  595. <h01ger> this=team
  596. * h01ger is sorry to be honest. no, i'm not :)
  597. <Sledge> others: do we want to discuss orga-team in this meeting?
  598. <stockholm> h01ger: i dont follow?
  599. <stockholm> h01ger: can you explain?
  600. <gwolf> stockholm: We are in a crisis moment for the team
  601. <h01ger> stockholm, see gwolf.
  602. <gwolf> And that's something quite objective :)
  603. <stockholm> ah
  604. <marga> Please, guys, this is off-topic right now. vedran_sjj I hope you are preparing your statement.
  605. <vedran_sjj> yes i'm ready
  606. <h01ger> marga, no. Tolimar has left :( you just want to continue??
  607. <Sledge> h01ger: sorry, unless somebody else agrees with you we'll leave that discussion until later
  608. <marga> h01ger: not really, but I don't want to discuss this right now.
  609. <h01ger> (to give one example why i think this is important as well. happily after the venue decision...)
  610. <Sledge> h01ger: ok, cool
  611. <Sledge> vedran_sjj: ready to go?
  612. <marga> vedran_sjj: ok, please go ahead?
  613. <h01ger> Sledge, but put it on the agenda!
  614. <Maulkin> Agenda at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConf7Meetings
  615. <vedran_sjj> ok
  616. <Sledge> h01ger: ok, 6: orga team discussion
  617. <Sledge> vedran_sjj: 5 minutes
  618. <vedran_sjj> 1. SJJ has no budget flights... while EDI has a lot of budget flights
  619. <vedran_sjj> obviously this presents a problem for non-sponsored atendees
  620. <vedran_sjj> making it more expensive and complicated to visit SJJ
  621. * h01ger missed the topic orgateam in the agenda and just added it
  622. <vedran_sjj> (as I said earlier, I'm doing strengths/weaknesses at the same time)
  623. <vedran_sjj> (cause I don't want to just repeat the same stuff...)
  624. <vedran_sjj> we spent a lot of energy finding a solution to this problem
  625. <vedran_sjj> we can make it smaller, but now dissapear completely
  626. <aj> just problems, we don't need solutions too :)
  627. <vedran_sjj> I say non-sponsored, because sponsorship is in the spreadsheet
  628. * syntaxis (~Syntaxis@cpc1-lamb2-0-0-cust860.bmly.cable.ntl.com) has joined channel #debconf-team
  629. <vedran_sjj> 2. EDI has a well-known debian community
  630. <vedran_sjj> they have several DDs on their team
  631. <vedran_sjj> while our team is a strong general Linux community but less involved with Debian
  632. <vedran_sjj> though I see this as an opportunity to convert this community to Debian :)
  633. <vedran_sjj> some may disagree...
  634. <vedran_sjj> 3. SJJ might be less interesting to corporate sponsorship
  635. <aj> (converting the community to debian would be a strength of the bid, don't cheat :)
  636. <vedran_sjj> ok sorry
  637. <vedran_sjj> we had that problem (no 3) when talking about another prospective FOSS conference
  638. <aj> (half time)
  639. <vedran_sjj> 4. and I'd like to add (some from my team disagree strongly...) the cultural issues
  640. <Sledge> ok
  641. <Sledge> by my account that's 5 minutes
  642. <vedran_sjj> I understand some DC attendees might have issues with SJJ
  643. <Sledge> vedran_sjj: please finish 4.
  644. <Sledge> then we move on
  645. <vedran_sjj> -- as I said I'm doing both at the same time
  646. <aj> (5m for weaknesses SJJ, 5m for strengths EDI = 10m all up)
  647. <vedran_sjj> can't we join the two half-times?
  648. <Sledge> crap, sorry
  649. * Sledge hits himself
  650. <vedran_sjj> as I would basically be repeating myself
  651. * igo (~igo@SE400.PPPoE-1468.sa.bih.net.ba) has joined channel #debconf-team
  652. <aj> which cultural issues do you see still being a problem for sjj potentially?
  653. <vedran_sjj> point 4:
  654. * igo is now known as igo_sjj
  655. <vedran_sjj> this is really very subjective
  656. <vedran_sjj> we tried to remove such issues (even have a wiki on that)
  657. <vedran_sjj> but I think some people will just never change their opinion no matter what we do
  658. <vedran_sjj> the issue is prejudice and not the actual state
  659. <vedran_sjj> of things
  660. <aj> okay, next one?
  661. <vedran_sjj> to repeat EDIs strenghts: EDI airport, more attractive to sponsors etc.
  662. <vedran_sjj> well thats it, we'll be open for questions if needed
  663. <aj> okay
  664. <Sledge> swap to EDI?
  665. <vedran_sjj> you can swap, I'm finished
  666. <aj> since there's a minute left; would you go to EDI if they had dc7 and you could?
  667. <vedran_sjj> yes why not
  668. <vedran_sjj> i would go
  669. <vedran_sjj> nothing else :)
  670. <bdale> aj: am I correct that you'd like us to hold comments until after EDI's turn?
  671. <Maulkin> ** minutes see above for sjj positives/negatives bit.
  672. <Sledge> bdale: correct
  673. <Sledge> let's move on to EDI
  674. <aj> bdale: yes; we'll let both teams bullet point any additional strengths they think they have then
  675. * EmxBA_sjj has left channel #debconf-team
  676. <Sledge> moray: are you ready?
  677. * bdale agrees
  678. <moray> Sledge: you want me to start on Sarajevo strengths?
  679. <Sledge> yes please
  680. <aj> weaknesses for edi, strengths for sjj; either order
  681. <Sledge> moray: 10 mins, go!
  682. <moray> I think the main advantage for Sarajevo over Edinburgh is that it's a cheaper city for food/accommodation
  683. <moray> i.e. either of the same quality is definitely cheaper in Sarajevo than Edinburgh
  684. <moray> (2) The Bosnians hope that they'll create some more interest in free software by having the conference there
  685. <moray> (3) It's probably a more 'exotic' location (a lot of people seem to find the UK a boring idea ;)
  686. * Signoff: igo_sjj (Quit: Changing server...)
  687. <moray> (4) I know that a lot of people prefer the 'self-contained' venue they're proposing
  688. <moray> ok, can I go on our weaknesses?
  689. * igo (~igo@SE400.PPPoE-1468.sa.bih.net.ba) has joined channel #debconf-team
  690. <aj> go ahead
  691. <moray> right
  692. * igo is now known as igo_sjj
  693. <moray> weaknesses:
  694. * marga- (~marga@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  695. * Mode change "+v marga-" on channel #debconf-team by Ganneff
  696. <moray> (1) We're competing with a lot of other events in Edinburgh to get venues/accommodation, especially since we're proposing a venue right in the middle of the city
  697. <moray> The obviously drives up prices for facilities, and it also means things need to be booked early
  698. * skx_ (~skx@62-30-160-230.cable.ubr07.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined channel #debconf-team
  699. <moray> (3) Edinburgh is a more expensive city than Sarajevo, though this is mitigated because we'd be right in the centre (zero travel costs once you're there), and all the city-run tourist things are free
  700. <aj> (2) ?
  701. * avdwoude_ (~avdwoude@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  702. <moray> aj: er, the one without a number was 2 in my mind ;)
  703. <aj> ah
  704. <moray> Weather - when I visited Sarajevo, it was consistently bright and mid-30s
  705. * zekko_sjj (~chatzilla@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  706. * EmxBA (~emx@SE400.PPPoE-2993.sa.bih.net.ba) has joined channel #debconf-team
  707. <moray> while I've already explained that Edinburgh isn't wet compared to Glasgow, people *are* likely to see some rain while they're here ;)
  708. <moray> I think that's me done
  709. <aj> (i think we can assume we're not holding dc in glasgow :)
  710. <Maulkin> ** minutes - see above for Edi strengths and weaknesses
  711. <Sledge> moray: nothing further to add?
  712. <aj> vedran_sjj: ok, moray had a chance to think while you were talking, did you think of anything you wanted to add while moray was?
  713. <moray> oh, one more, someone implies people may be worried about kilts or haggis or bagpipes ;)
  714. <vedran_sjj> nothing more from sjj
  715. <bdale> moray: they're only worried that I'll be in a tie-dyed kilt all week... ;-)
  716. * Sledge shudders at that image
  717. <Sledge> :-)
  718. <vedran_sjj> aj: nothing more, we can go on
  719. <Maulkin> ** minutes Questions and comments
  720. <Maulkin> (I think)
  721. <aj> vedran_sjj: okay, cheap food, local interest, exotic locale, self-contained venue; did you have any other strengths for sjj you wanted to remind people of very briefly?
  722. <vedran_sjj> ok, public transport in sjj is very cheap
  723. <stockholm> comments about the sponsors thing:
  724. <aj> stockholm: please wait
  725. * steveq (~sjq@canongate.jadevine.org.uk) has joined channel #debconf-team
  726. <vedran_sjj> we have a top quality venue
  727. <vedran_sjj> a four star hotel
  728. <vedran_sjj> everything under one roof, 24/7
  729. <aj> that one's mentioned (self contained venue)
  730. <vedran_sjj> I'd like to add 24/7 availability
  731. <gwolf> aj: Note the 24/7 thing
  732. <aj> right
  733. * kandinski (kandinski@rowrcolo.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
  734. <vedran_sjj> we have an already established Internet link + prospective donors for wireless
  735. <vedran_sjj> Internet in rooms
  736. <marga> vedran_sjj: that's a promise, not a fact, right?
  737. <vedran_sjj> also we have server & video rooms available
  738. <aj> marga: questions later
  739. <vedran_sjj> marga: thats a fact, we have confirmation from ISP
  740. <marga> vedran_sjj: I meant the "Internet in rooms" part.
  741. <Sledge> ok, vedran_sjj: done?
  742. <vedran_sjj> and one more thing: IMHO we have quite good accessibility support
  743. * gwolf has to interrupt a second - I'm leaving in under five minutes
  744. <vedran_sjj> marga: that also is confirmed
  745. <gwolf> I'll leave a couple of comments in the list. Please take them into account when doing the voting.
  746. <aj> moray: since i forgot earlier; if dc7 were in sjj, would you be going?
  747. * gwolf ceases to interrupt
  748. <Maulkin> gwolf: Or you can /msg me them and I'll relay
  749. <gwolf> Maulkin: So be it.
  750. <moray> aj: well, I'd rather answer about the whole team - I'm sure that there will be a good representation from our UK bid team, wherever it is
  751. <Sledge> ok, that's fair enough
  752. <Maulkin> ** minutes - add stuff above to +/- for sjj
  753. <aj> moray: any additional strengths of edi you'd like to mentioned, other than cheap fligths, debian community, corporate sponsors?
  754. * EmxBA is now known as EmxBA_sjj
  755. <Sledge> moray: quick summary of EDI bid strengths?
  756. <moray> yup ...
  757. <moray> the bid team has a lot of experience of past debconfs, as well as other free software events and academic conferences, so I think we have a lot of experience between us to work to organise a good event
  758. * cmot has left channel #debconf-team
  759. <moray> we're proposing debconf in a very central location, so we have all the amenities of the city right on our doorstep
  760. * Lo-lan-do (~roland@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  761. <moray> the city as a whole is accessible, with e.g. the taxis required to be able to transport wheelchairs, as well as wheelchair accessible buses
  762. <moray> the venues are flexible about network rearranging/mess etc.
  763. <moray> there's lots of breakout space in the venue as well as outside
  764. <moray> Edinburgh's a major network hub, we *might* be able to negotiate 1Gb/s from the venue, but it's certainly easy to get a nice (if slower than that) connection from one of our sponsor ISPs
  765. <Sledge> ok; done?
  766. <moray> the city is well-connected besides flights, btw, people from Europe can also take trains and ferries if they want to avoid killing the earth so fast
  767. <moray> Sledge: yeah, I should stop
  768. <Sledge> ok, done
  769. <Sledge> let's move on
  770. <aj> vedran_sjj: does that summary from moray of edi strengths sound fair?
  771. <Maulkin> ** minutes - add stuff above to +/- for edi
  772. <vedran_sjj> I'd like to add that we have some of the same things
  773. * gwolf waves goodbye. Maulkin has my final comments. I'll stay logged in to get the backlog later.
  774. <Sledge> ttfn gwolf
  775. * armaggeddon (underlebti@ppp217-51.aknet.it) has joined channel #debconf-team
  776. <vedran_sjj> breakout space, network flexibility, we also have a minibus for transportation of disabled persons
  777. <Maulkin> ** minutes dups from SJJ to above list
  778. <aj> moray: happy to move on now too?
  779. <vedran_sjj> yeah I said what I meant to say
  780. <moray> aj: I think we want to avoid just turning into discussion of specific points here, so definitely
  781. <Sledge> ok
  782. <Sledge> (brief) questions for the teams
  783. <stockholm> must go to bed soon
  784. <Maulkin> Sledge: I need a small section in (4) for gwolf's comments
  785. <Maulkin> Are we taking questions from -discuss?
  786. <Sledge> Maulkin: no problem
  787. <aj> oh, i guess we are
  788. <Maulkin> Caus eI can relay
  789. <Sledge> please do so
  790. <Sledge> 10 minutes for questions, we'll be ruthless about moving on
  791. <stockholm> should i comment about the sponsorship later?
  792. <Maulkin> stockholm: Yeah...
  793. <Maulkin> I think
  794. <marga> vedran_sjj: if DC7 is in SJJ, who will be the local-team leader and how will that work?
  795. <vedran_sjj> sapphire will be the leader, but our team on democratic principles
  796. <vedran_sjj> our team WORKS on democratic principles
  797. <aj> so i believe HP at least are committed to sponsoring debconf independent of the venue, as long as the conference is effective at improving debian; i think that's worth noting explicitly, since sjj were concerned it might be a weakness for them
  798. <vedran_sjj> there will be at least three deputees
  799. * Jon_uk is now known as Jon
  800. <vedran_sjj> Amar, Amila and myself
  801. * Jon_uk (~sdfsdfsdf@82-39-205-158.stb.ubr03.newy.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined channel #debconf-team
  802. <Sledge> ok
  803. <Sledge> marga: answered for you?
  804. <marga> Sledge: I guess. Just one more thing, who would be communicating with the orga team?
  805. <vedran_sjj> all four of us
  806. * h01ger hopes they will be(come) part of the orga team ;)
  807. <Sledge> ok - next question please
  808. <Maulkin> Both teams: Why do you want to host debconf?
  809. <moray> I'll go?
  810. <vedran_sjj> moray: you first now :)
  811. <Sledge> go
  812. <aj> both go, it's irc; but be brief :)
  813. <moray> 'to make Debian better' - or, more specifically, because we're really enjoyed previous debconfs and want to contribute something back
  814. <Sledge> ok - vedran_sjj??
  815. <vedran_sjj> we have a strong Linux community, with this I believe that we would push that com. towards Debian
  816. <Sledge> ok; next Q
  817. <aj> "com." ?
  818. <aj> community
  819. <vedran_sjj> community
  820. <Maulkin> Something coming from -discuss
  821. <stockholm> i have a question for for edinburgh: what options did you explore for budget food? did you investigate different places like the mosque, to combine both price and variety?
  822. <moray> Sledge: should I answer that now?
  823. <stockholm> something like indish on fridays, pasta on mondays, haggis on sat... (c:
  824. <Sledge> moray: please, yes
  825. <bdale> I need to leave to fetch my son from camp, back in 20 mins or so, will stay logged in to read scrollback on my return
  826. <aj> Sledge: last round of questions?
  827. <moray> the mosque kitchen is still an available option. the catering option at Teviot (for example) is a flexible canteen, and is much cheaper than other external caterers we've investigated. really the best solution depends on how much money the organising team overall decides to devote to food. the precise details on food can be organised much closer to the event than the main venue booking
  828. <Sledge> aj: one more Q after moray's answer
  829. <moray> I can give more detail, but I guess that's enough?
  830. <marga> This is a comment, and a follow-up question. After the experience in MEX we've learned to distrust things that are promised. So it would be nice that whenever stating a situation you would state if it's an actual fact, a fact that is confirmed to happen, or just an informal promise... So, both teams, do you have a 'Plan B' for things that were promised but haven't happened yet?
  831. <Sledge> ok...
  832. * Maulkin has 3... questions (all short)
  833. <Sledge> SJJ first?
  834. <marga> (sorry if I rushed).
  835. <Maulkin> From (-discuss)
  836. * Sledge tickles marga for diving in
  837. <vedran_sjj> marga: please be more exact
  838. <aj> to clarify, i think marga means promised by sponsors, not by the local team
  839. * Topic for #debconf-team: /topic make a agenda | /msg h01ger for voice in case you have been involved in debconf-orga or have a question or contribution | join #debconf-team-discuss
  840. * Topic for #debconf-team set by h01ger!~holger@socket.layer-acht.org on Mon Jul 10 20:17:26 2006
  841. <marga> vedran_sjj: like network in the rooms, or that sort of stuff, which is not there yet.
  842. <vedran_sjj> marga: for ISP, we discussed with their manager and they said that we will have an official "letter of intent" but sadly their marketing guy was out of town
  843. * h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "agenda at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConf7Meetings | /msg h01ger for voice in case you have been involved in debconf-orga or have a question or contribution | join #debconf-team-discuss "
  844. <Sledge> moray: please have your answer ready too
  845. <vedran_sjj> network in rooms - there is infrastructure, they just need a few switches to hook it up
  846. <vedran_sjj> they have Cat5 in the rooms
  847. <vedran_sjj> so I guess plan B is: we will provide the switches ;)
  848. <Sledge> vedran_sjj: ok, done?
  849. <h01ger> vedran_sjj, for visas at the airport?
  850. <vedran_sjj> most other stuff I can think of is promised to be free, but at worst we will pay for it
  851. <Sledge> moray: EDI response?
  852. <moray> I don't think we're relying on anything that isn't already in place. there's still the question of negotations on facilities falling through before contracts are signed, etc. - I don't think our venues are fly-by-night like that, but this is also why we've been keeping a number of venue options open to get the best deal while we negotiate
  853. <Sledge> ok
  854. * EmxBA_sjj has left channel #debconf-team
  855. <moray> nothing we've asked for from the venues is 'unusual' for them, so I don't foresee problems
  856. <stockholm> what about if the rooms are not 24/7 in edi?
  857. * EmxBA_sjj (~emx@SE400.PPPoE-2993.sa.bih.net.ba) has joined channel #debconf-team
  858. <vedran_sjj> h01ger: we have a promise from Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of B&H and we also have confirmation from other similar venues that they have experience with this
  859. <moray> stockholm: we now have both the ECA and Teviot offering 24/7
  860. <vedran_sjj> h01ger: thats pretty much as good as it gets....
  861. <stockholm> moray: ah, thanks
  862. <Sledge> right
  863. <moray> stockholm: if we didn't have that, we do also have a backup option of another space we could use at night nearby
  864. <Maulkin> My questions from -discuss?
  865. <stockholm> moray: good
  866. <h01ger> vedran_sjj, nods - but you know gwolf also had promises from the bureucrazy...
  867. <Sledge> as Maulkin has a couple of questions from -discuss, please dive in QUICKLY
  868. <aj> Sledge: discussing each teams alternatives to running dc7 after maulkin?
  869. <Maulkin> "we can get food at 3am in both sjj and edi after a long night hacking"
  870. <Sledge> aj: can do
  871. <Maulkin> No.
  872. <Maulkin> Crap. Ignore that
  873. <Maulkin> "both teams, will you bid for 2008 if you don't win?"
  874. <vedran_sjj> h01ger: personally I trust the other organizations that organized similar events
  875. <aj> (2009; 2008 will be on a different continent apparently)
  876. * h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "agenda at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConf7Meetings | /msg h01ger for voice in case you have been involved in debconf-orga | join #debconf-team-discuss to contribute and to ask questions which will be forwarded"
  877. <Sledge> what's the Q?
  878. <Sledge> ok
  879. <moray> please make clear which questions we're meant to answer, and which are noise, yes ;)
  880. <Maulkin> Bith teams: "both teams, will you bid for 2008 if you don't win?"
  881. <Sledge> SJJ: ??
  882. <h01ger> (2009)
  883. <Ganneff> 2009
  884. <stockholm> (isnt that question rather hypothetical, since it is far in the future?)
  885. <vedran_sjj> we will bid on 2009 but I doubt that we will get the same prices...
  886. <Sledge> ok
  887. <Sledge> EDI: ??
  888. <Maulkin> I think the response I'm seeing elsewhere is:
  889. <moray> I think some people will be 'burnt out' for another DebConf bid after the length of time that's led up to this one; also at points in this process it's been implied that the UK is simply too expensive a country, and if prices are unlikely to fall significantly. however, we do have people on the team who would be expect to be interested in bidding again in 2009 if it doesn't happen this year
  890. <Maulkin> Ahh, food.
  891. <Maulkin> Gah
  892. <Sledge> Maulkin: next Q please
  893. <Maulkin> "we can get food at 3am in both sjj and edi after a long night hacking / is there food or restarants generally around the place?"
  894. <Sledge> ok
  895. <moray> Maulkin: do you mean s/we can/can we/?
  896. <Maulkin> (That's the last from -discuss)
  897. <Maulkin> yes, can we
  898. <Sledge> EDI: ??
  899. * h01ger thinks the uk is cheaper than .no and .fi - isnt it?
  900. <moray> h01ger: yes
  901. <vedran_sjj> Maulkin: we can get food 24/7
  902. <aj> vedran_sjj: from where? the hotel or surrounding shops or...?
  903. * Jon_uk has left channel #debconf-team
  904. <moray> Maulkin: yes, we're right in the middle of the city
  905. * Signoff: Jon_uk (Quit: leaving)
  906. <vedran_sjj> aj: from hotel and the nearby restaurant (very cheap)
  907. <marga> moray: do the pubs close?
  908. * Jon_uk (~sdfsdfsdf@82-39-205-158.stb.ubr03.newy.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined channel #debconf-team
  909. <moray> Maulkin: a lot of bars/restaurants nearby, and fast food places nearby for late night
  910. <vedran_sjj> aj: though the restaurant is not 24/7 :)
  911. <moray> marga: yes, at different times from each other
  912. <Maulkin> Time for one more Q?
  913. <Sledge> questions done I think
  914. <Sledge> Maulkin: no, too late
  915. <Maulkin> ok, ta
  916. <Sledge> time to move on
  917. <Sledge> aj: ??
  918. <aj> okay, alternatives now?
  919. <Sledge> yup - ask away
  920. <Maulkin> Alternatives?
  921. <Maulkin> ** minutes: questions and answers section above
  922. <aj> so, if the other team hosts the conference, what will your team end up doing? helping out remotely as part of the orga team; running something else? what ideas do people have? people from -discuss might want to chime in to, i don't know if we want to demoderate briefly
  923. <aj> i'd say max 15m for this at this point?
  924. <Maulkin> aj: No, I can relay
  925. <Sledge> yes, please relay to keep things sane
  926. <stockholm> i need to go to be.
  927. <stockholm> bed
  928. <vedran_sjj> aj: some team members will help out
  929. <Maulkin> stockholm: /msg me with any commenst you want me to relay
  930. <aj> one possibility i see for sarajevo is having a regional miniconference, or a regional "free software" conference -- both those have been quite successful in australia
  931. * Signoff: avdwoude_ (Quit: Leaving)
  932. * Signoff: igo_sjj (Quit: KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia')
  933. * Maulkin swaps hats around
  934. <Maulkin> I'll carry on being part of the orga team no matter who gets it.
  935. * Maulkin re-hats
  936. <aj> 06:36 <weasel> aj: is this to imply that DebConf will be in EDI?
  937. * Ned|m_sjj (~nedim@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  938. <aj> to answer that on channel, actually
  939. <aj> no, definitely not -- it does imply i'd like to see a conference in sjj next year either way though
  940. <moray> Maulkin: also from Edinburgh we have e.g. someone interested in helping with video team stuff in SJJ, Paul Sladen who says he'd attend and sleep lots ;)
  941. <moray> (er, s/someone interested/Mark Brown interested/)
  942. <Sledge> sladen will sleep lots wherever, I can attest to that :-)
  943. <aj> 06:36 <slef> is either venue short of regional conferences already?
  944. <aj> edi, sjj; are there other local conferences you can go to if dc isn't local?
  945. * __che__sjj (~chatzilla@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  946. <vedran_sjj> aj: there are no other confs
  947. <moray> aj: I think that depends what you mean by 'local'; there do tend to be Debian *social* events in the UK, though mostly down in the south of England, while it's quite easy to get from Edinburgh to events on the continent
  948. <moray> (e.g. KDE, GNOME conferences)
  949. <marga> (for those not familiar with UK slang, 'the continent' = 'the rest of Europe that's not the UK').
  950. <aj> vedran_sjj: is it difficult for bosnians to get to KDE, GNOME etc conferences that moray mentions? i guess due to travel costs?
  951. <vedran_sjj> aj: yes, there are visa issues and the general financial issues
  952. <vedran_sjj> aj: though I'm wandering about the purpose of this line of questions
  953. <Maulkin> Otehrs on -discuss are wondering too
  954. * Ady01 (~viwa@SE400.PPPoE-1304.sa.bih.net.ba) has joined channel #debconf-team
  955. <Maulkin> aj: Could you clarify?
  956. * pNGOS (~Malinovic@ppp-93-99.teol.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
  957. * armaggeddon has left channel #debconf-team
  958. * Ady01 is now known as Ady01_sjj
  959. <vedran_sjj> s/wandering/wondering/ sorry
  960. <Sledge> aj: ??
  961. <aj> damn, and i thought i'd be the one asking the difficult questions
  962. <Sledge> :-)
  963. <aj> okay, so this requires a little background
  964. <aj> in australia, we have an annual linux conference; it started in '99, missed a year, continued in 2001 and has been annual since then
  965. <aj> i was on the organising team for it in 2002 (we had about 250-300 people), and have been more or less involved in most of them since then
  966. <aj> the focus of the conference is basically "it's too hard to travel to europe for most of us to see all their cool talks, ditto america, so let's bring them out here"
  967. <aj> in 2002 we also started running a debian miniconf, which attracted about 100 people, mostly debian users rather than developers, and has continued ever year since too
  968. * bdale is back
  969. <aj> it's different to debconf, since it's more about talks and users than hacking and developers, but is quite interesting
  970. * Signoff: Lo-lan-do (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  971. <aj> it just strikes me that bosnia/the balkans are in a similar situation, and maybe a similar solution would be interesting; i know a few people i've talked to who are in favour of edi for dc7, also think that a "linux.conf.balkans" every year would be a fascinating event
  972. <Sledge> ok...
  973. <Sledge> aj: done?
  974. <vedran_sjj> aj: interesting idea, but it's a bit hard to think about that when we don't know if we will host DebConf or not
  975. <aj> yes
  976. <Sledge> right
  977. <Maulkin> aj, would it not make sense to use a DebConf as a kick-off for an annual series?
  978. <Maulkin> From -discuss
  979. * pNGOS is now known as pNGOS__sjj
  980. <Maulkin> Quick answer please :)
  981. * Sledge nods Maulkin
  982. <aj> Maulkin: it could easily, the question is what would edi do then? i don't even have a guess for that
  983. * Lo-lan-do (~roland@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  984. <Sledge> right
  985. <Sledge> I think we're wandering off, time to get back to the agenda
  986. <aj> yup
  987. <Maulkin> All ok form -discuss.
  988. <Maulkin> *from
  989. <Sledge> orga team comments
  990. <Sledge> item 4
  991. <Maulkin> Ok.
  992. * Maulkin needs a little bit here from gwolf and stockholm
  993. <Ganneff> then start
  994. <Maulkin> <stockholm> i asked sponsors if they would sponsor either debconf or sarajevo when asking for sponsorship last time around. and they consider both "europe" and would sponsor. e.g. the big providers in germany etc.
  995. <marga> I guess there's and EDI missing there.
  996. <Maulkin> Yes.
  997. <Maulkin> 21:00 <gwolf> As for the local teams, the EDI team looks more responsable/grown-up, and I must acknowledge their balance - even on looking on Sarajevo information when the other team could not answer something
  998. <Maulkin> 21:02 <gwolf> The SJJ team looks very enthusiastic, and they (claim to - should we believe them? I do at least :) ) have experience on other non-Debconf conferences - Now, as for my experience here, no conference gets you ready for Debconf... But still :)
  999. <Maulkin> 21:02 <gwolf> Anyway, I won't go anymore on the issue-per-issue thing
  1000. <Maulkin> 21:03 <gwolf> Both venues have great installations, but I think the Terme hotel provides a more comfortable setting where we will be able to sit and work
  1001. <Maulkin> 21:02 <gwolf> The amount of details we can work on for both sides is huge
  1002. <Maulkin> [ends]
  1003. * Signoff: pNGOS__sjj (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1004. <Sledge> Maulkin: thanks
  1005. <Sledge> any other orga team comments please
  1006. <Maulkin> Oh, and for me, I'm staying out of particular discussions, due to potential bias.
  1007. <Ganneff> my opinion about this meeting is known, so i dont speak much more then when it comes to "decision".
  1008. <Sledge> anybody else?
  1009. <Maulkin> yes.
  1010. <aj> Ganneff: can you summarise that to the list when it's convenient for the record, please?
  1011. <Maulkin> <@mooch> Maulkin: nokia comment, please
  1012. <marga> I don't have comments.
  1013. <Maulkin> No idea what that means though
  1014. <marga> <mooch> nokia will probably not have a problem with the venue
  1015. <bdale> mooch is primary point of contact for Nokia as a sponsor, I presume
  1016. <Maulkin> Erm...
  1017. <aj> Maulkin: want me to take the heat for quoting this one? :)
  1018. <marga> aj: I'll do it.
  1019. * pNGO1 (~Malinovic@ppp-93-99.teol.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
  1020. <Maulkin> aj: Please, I can't as I have bias
  1021. <aj> marga, go ahead, i'd like to comment on it afterwards (too)
  1022. <Sledge> please just post the comment
  1023. * Signoff: EmxBA_sjj (Read error: Operation timed out)
  1024. <Maulkin> ok.
  1025. <marga> It is the opinion of several people (mooch is the one raising it at this moment), that should the conference happen in SJJ, Safir might not be the best person to lead the group since it needs a lot of cold blood and controled spirit not to break apart, and he has demonstrated to be too influenced by personal feelings and attacking attitude during the process.
  1026. * pNGO1 is now known as pNGOS_sjj
  1027. * Signoff: __che__sjj (Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.74 [Firefox])
  1028. <Maulkin> Thanks marga
  1029. * Signoff: pNGOS_sjj (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1030. <aj> the term "impulsive" maybe have appeared too; i'd just like to say that i've been very impressed by the excitement and enthusiasm of the sjj team, and while i think that has boiled over into taking offense unnecessarily now and then, it's that sort of passion that makes these sorts of conferences great
  1031. * leo9_sjj (DJThor@SE400.PPPoE-2081.sa.bih.net.ba) has joined channel #debconf-team
  1032. <Sledge> if we have no more orga comments, I'd like to move us on again
  1033. * pNGOS (~Malinovic@ppp-93-99.teol.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
  1034. <Maulkin> Sledge: Checking -discuss now
  1035. * h01ger is not sure if he has something new to say
  1036. * pNGOS is now known as pNGOS_sjj
  1037. <Ganneff> um. sjj didnt comment on that one point yet?
  1038. <aj> otoh, actually running them tends to teach you hot to deal with those sorts of reactions, because you get so stressed out you have to learn one way or another
  1039. <vedran_sjj> Ganneff: what point exactly?
  1040. <Ganneff> vedran_sjj: margas quote
  1041. <vedran_sjj> Ganneff: amar_sjj responded on -discuss
  1042. <Ganneff> different chan, not in minutes
  1043. <Maulkin> I think that's all
  1044. <h01ger> <amar_sjj> Maulkin: the bosnian team consists of 27 people. Safir initiated everything but the DebCof will be handled by the TEAM.
  1045. <Sledge> ok, let's see that response and move on please
  1046. <vedran_sjj> the sjj team consists of 27 people. safir started everything but debconf will be handled by the TEAM
  1047. <Maulkin> Can we move?
  1048. <vedran_sjj> thanks h01ger
  1049. <Sledge> yes
  1050. <Sledge> item 5 by my count
  1051. <Maulkin> ** minutes above comments from orga
  1052. * h01ger looks at the agenda to see if he should say something now or later
  1053. * Maulkin nods
  1054. <Sledge> h01ger: shout now if you're going to
  1055. <Ganneff> h01ger: you are orga, so talk
  1056. <Sledge> h01ger: ??
  1057. * EmxBA (~emx@SE400.PPPoE-1187.sa.bih.net.ba) has joined channel #debconf-team
  1058. * h01ger thinks
  1059. * Sledge urges h01ger to think quickly :-)
  1060. * Topic for #debconf-team: agenda at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConf7Meetings | /msg h01ger for voice in case you have been involved in debconf-orga | join #debconf-team-discuss to contribute and to ask questions which will be forwarded
  1061. * Topic for #debconf-team set by h01ger!~holger@socket.layer-acht.org on Mon Jul 10 21:25:31 2006
  1062. <h01ger> i think i value the "strong, mature, experienced local team" EDI team, but must admit he has also been impressed by the SJJ team recently but still has doubts.
  1063. <Sledge> right
  1064. <Sledge> thankyou, let's move on
  1065. <h01ger> and me shuts up, for sake
  1066. * Signoff: leo8_sjj (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
  1067. <Sledge> 5: "weigh up bids against priorities"
  1068. <Maulkin> ** minutes see abouve for orga team comments, now weigh up bids against priorities"
  1069. <marga> -> http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList
  1070. <Sledge> marga: yup
  1071. * leo9_sjj is now known as leo8_sjj
  1072. <Sledge> right, let's get this organised
  1073. * Signoff: steveq (Quit: Leaving)
  1074. <Sledge> would orga people prefer to give their rankings against all the priorities at once, or shall we go through an item at a time?
  1075. <aj> how about we see if moray and vedran_sjj can agree on answers for each priority first?
  1076. * marga H ~marga@ (Margarita Manterola)
  1077. <marga> Sledge: I don't know if ranking is important...
  1078. <Maulkin> Again, I'm abstaining this section.
  1079. <Sledge> aj: I think we've probably seen enough discussion of those
  1080. <marga> At least, we should discard those priorities which are pretty much the same for both venues.
  1081. <moray> aj: I think that'll just turn into a fight about details and how you weigh up sub-points of each?
  1082. <aj> sorry as in "both venues seems to be roughly equally affordable for sponsors" ?
  1083. <Maulkin> Ok...
  1084. <Maulkin> Suggestion.
  1085. <Sledge> Maulkin: go ahead
  1086. <Maulkin> Sledge: state the 'item' and give an opinion on which is stronger or weaker or the same.
  1087. <Sledge> ...
  1088. * h01ger has another comment, sorry. the SJJ team has not been involved in dc before (like stockholm demanded before dc6 and now waved this requirement) - OTOH people from the EDI team have and i think its good.
  1089. <Maulkin> Ask for objections from local teams and orga team
  1090. <Sledge> Maulkin: ok, I'll do that
  1091. <Maulkin> Then move on
  1092. <Ganneff> 2,3,4,5,6,7,9 are too similar for both locations and can be kicked imo.
  1093. <Sledge> h01ger: you're too late
  1094. <Sledge> right
  1095. <Sledge> item 1: cost
  1096. <aj> (jftr: safir was involved as a volunteer at dc5 aiui)
  1097. <marga> Ganneff: I disagree.
  1098. <Maulkin> Can we keep this short BTW?
  1099. <Sledge> in terms of cost, we have: cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI
  1100. * igo (~igo@SE400.PPPoE-1333.sa.bih.net.ba) has joined channel #debconf-team
  1101. <marga> Ganneff: I think the points at stake are 1,2,4 and 8.
  1102. <Sledge> does that sound a fair summary?
  1103. * EmxBA is now known as EmxbA_sjj
  1104. * EmxbA_sjj is now known as EmxBA_sjj
  1105. * igo is now known as igo_sjj
  1106. <vedran_sjj> Ganneff marga: I must object
  1107. <Sledge> vedran_sjj: what's the problem?
  1108. <moray> Sledge: yes: prices on the ground vary depending exactly what we decide to pay for for attendees, but certainly things of the same quality will be cheaper in Sarajevo, whereas getting to Edinburgh gives budget airlines for Europeans, and significantly cheaper flights for others
  1109. <vedran_sjj> I think all points need to be weighed
  1110. <Sledge> vedran_sjj: ok, we'll weigh them all up
  1111. <Sledge> vedran_sjj: are you happy with the summary of cost?
  1112. <vedran_sjj> Sledge: you mean the spreadsheet? yes we're fine with that
  1113. <Sledge> right
  1114. <marga> vedran_sjj: he means this: "<Sledge> in terms of cost, we have: cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI"
  1115. <Sledge> pri #2: local team
  1116. <Ganneff> edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already. i trust both to make a good conf.
  1117. * h01ger also thinks 1,2,4 and 8 are the important (different) ones
  1118. <moray> marga appeared to want to say something here; I don't think it's useful for us teams to comment?
  1119. <Sledge> Ganneff: thanks, about what I'd have said
  1120. <Sledge> marga: please dive in if you have something
  1121. <moray> Sledge: can I correct that we've intentionally only listed people who were already involved, there are a lot more people in the UK who've expressed interest in helping *if* DebConf happens here
  1122. <Sledge> moray: noted
  1123. <moray> (including edlug, compsoc people as mentioned on the wiki)
  1124. <vedran_sjj> Sledge: also applies for SJJ
  1125. <aj> if both teams could keep some room at the conference for non-organisers, that would be great :)
  1126. * h01ger wonders if the localteams should be involved so much in weighting the prios..
  1127. <bdale> my opinion is that both teams have critical mass already
  1128. <Sledge> any further comments on pri2?
  1129. * Sledge waits 30 secs
  1130. * jlightsey (~john@cpe-70-120-217-224.houston.res.rr.com) has joined channel #debconf-team
  1131. <marga> Ok
  1132. <marga> Sorry, was away one moment, I have a comment.
  1133. <Sledge> marga: go
  1134. * Signoff: streuner (Quit: Client Exiting)
  1135. <marga> It's my understanding that it's a question of "National Pride" for SJJ people to hold a DebConf. However, I do fear that they might not be ready for hosting DebConf yet.
  1136. <Sledge> right
  1137. <Sledge> 30 secs
  1138. <marga> Mainly because only Safir has been present in a previous DebConf, and DebConf is not like any other conference.
  1139. * h01ger nods
  1140. <Sledge> pri3: good working spaces
  1141. * pNGOS_sjj has left channel #debconf-team
  1142. <Sledge> as far as I can see, both bids should have this covered
  1143. <Sledge> if you disagree, please respond ASAP
  1144. <bdale> I think so too
  1145. <vedran_sjj> Sledge: 24/7, special rooms
  1146. <Ganneff> both are covered here
  1147. <Ganneff> hotel has enough room, edi also.
  1148. <vedran_sjj> Sledge: same building
  1149. <Maulkin> That's a different point
  1150. <Sledge> moving on
  1151. <Sledge> pri4: excellant network connectivity
  1152. <h01ger> vedran_sjj..., u didnt say anything new/interesting now... (really) (at 3)
  1153. * Signoff: kandinski (Quit: leaving)
  1154. <vedran_sjj> h01ger: am I allowed to point out our strengths?
  1155. <Ganneff> pri4 - edi may have more uplink, but sjj would give us also enough for debconf IMO
  1156. <Sledge> both have offers of networking from local ISPs that should be enough for us; EDI may have an advantage in terms of absolute bw
  1157. <Maulkin> vedran_sjj: Please just state if you disagree with the summaries
  1158. <h01ger> vedran_sjj, i thought the orga team weights the priorities - you had your time allready..
  1159. <Sledge> any disagreement?
  1160. <Sledge> 30 secs
  1161. <aj> i believe the edi venue also has wired networking already hooked up, whereas the sjj team may have to do that themselves
  1162. <vedran_sjj> Maulkin: I disagree with summary of pri3
  1163. * h01ger is not sure about aruba and other hw sponsors but the SJJ offerings are not that bad
  1164. <h01ger> (because esp. aruba-sponsorship relies on local dealers..)
  1165. <Ganneff> aj: no already setup wired did suffice up tonow
  1166. <Ganneff> aj: i think we need to run cables in both locations for some parts
  1167. <Sledge> vedran_sjj: what's the problem with (3)?
  1168. <Maulkin> vedran_sjj: Do you feel sjj is stronger in terms of the actual working spaces? (not rooms etc)
  1169. <marga> vedran_sjj: pri 3 refers to hacklabs / talk rooms. Not allocation.
  1170. <moray> Ganneff: yeah, in ECA we might want to add some, and in either venue would certainly need to split out for individual machines etc.
  1171. <vedran_sjj> Sledge: we have confirmed 24/7 and availability of server and video rooms
  1172. <h01ger> Ganneff, which might be harder in a hotel (but wasnt a problem in brasil)
  1173. <Maulkin> vedran_sjj: So does Edinburgh
  1174. <Ganneff> h01ger: not according to the hotel, we asked that. should be doable.
  1175. <h01ger> Ganneff, ok
  1176. * godog (~filo@host51-20.pool8256.interbusiness.it) has joined channel #debconf-team
  1177. <vedran_sjj> we also have more hacklabs available
  1178. <marga> vedran_sjj: more? How many rooms for how many people?
  1179. <Ganneff> i wouldnt count numbers there, as some locations in edi have lots of rooms.
  1180. <Sledge> vedran_sjj: I think most people are happy with both bids on this front, we should move on
  1181. <Ganneff> yes. next.
  1182. * h01ger nods to sledge
  1183. <vedran_sjj> marga: we have 6 rooms available, one large room up to 300 people and the other are smaller
  1184. <Sledge> people happy with (4)?
  1185. <bdale> if sjj thinks they're slightly ahead on 3, they seem to be slightly behind on 4, so it probably washes out
  1186. <vedran_sjj> bdale: I agree
  1187. <moray> bdale: in either venue in Edinburgh rooms would be limited by what we rent rather than space
  1188. <moray> (as Ganneff said)
  1189. * Maulkin moves for closure on (3) and (4)
  1190. <Sledge> 30 secs on (4), then move on
  1191. <bdale> my opinion is that both teams have adequate answers for 3 and 4 to ensure a good conf
  1192. <Sledge> (5):
  1193. <Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
  1194. <moray> is this about sponsored catering or outside stuff, or both?
  1195. <Sledge> both, I think
  1196. <Ganneff> for 5 - both sites can offer good food. the price may vary in EDI, depending on what is chosen.
  1197. <bdale> moray: I meant both
  1198. * h01ger nods to Ganneff
  1199. <Sledge> on site food seems to be good enough in both, though maybe more expensive in EDI
  1200. <aj> expensive goes back to point (1), no?
  1201. * Maulkin nods
  1202. <Sledge> for separate food, EDI may have a slight advantage due to being right in the city centre; again, both are adequate
  1203. <Ganneff> where i only vote against using the mosque kitchen for the whole thing, but except that i guess both sides will feed us good enough. maybe edi more expensive, depends on what they can talk out of the guys there.
  1204. <bdale> for perspective, I think dc2 and dc3 were barely adequate in this regard, dc4 had great in-house meals but going off site was a challenge. dc5 was so-so on food all told, and dc6 was stunningly good because there were many options available within easy walk at good prices
  1205. <Sledge> any arguments on (5)? 30 secs
  1206. <Maulkin> bdale: Thus, do you have a preferred venue for this?
  1207. <bdale> Maulkin: I've been to EDI, I've never been to SJJ, I find it hard to differentiate well based on what has been asserted in the proposals
  1208. <Maulkin> Or any objections to "They're both equal"? :)
  1209. <bdale> I'd abstain
  1210. <Maulkin> :)
  1211. <Sledge> ok, moving on to (6): suitabile housing in close proximity
  1212. <vedran_sjj> Maulkin: sjj is much cheaper
  1213. <moray> Maulkin: well, I'd mildly object on that, but I agree no one will starve in either
  1214. <Maulkin> .oO(This is feeling like a SPI meeting)Oo.
  1215. <Maulkin> vedran_sjj: That was section (1), it's been noted
  1216. * bdale whacks Maulkin
  1217. <Sledge> Maulkin: *grin*
  1218. <h01ger> vedran_sjj, thats is point1. atm you're only weakening point2
  1219. <h01ger> what does "suitabile housing in close proximity" mean?
  1220. <Sledge> housing: sjj has an advantage with accommodation on the same site; EDI is more spread out (but not a *huge* amount)
  1221. <h01ger> accomodation?
  1222. <Maulkin> h01ger: yes
  1223. <marga> SJJ has an advantage over EDI at prio. 6, since it's a four star hotel, and everything is close together. EDI's proposal is still acceptable and "DebConf level".
  1224. * Sledge nods marga
  1225. * h01ger nods to marga
  1226. * bdale agrees
  1227. <Ganneff> accomodation is in SJJ all in one, EDI is spread in the city. and has of course a lot of hotels also there.
  1228. <Ganneff> plus for sjj imo.
  1229. <h01ger> anybody taking notes on this pro/con things?
  1230. <Sledge> no arguments? moving on in 30s
  1231. * Maulkin is taking minutes.
  1232. <aj> one advantage to EDI on that score is people can opt to go to a 5-star hotel if they're willing to pay
  1233. <aj> the SJJ bid gets everyone into the 4-star hotel instead
  1234. <bdale> aj: I'm presuming you could also do that in SJJ, though? cheap taxis, too.
  1235. <aj> ah, good point
  1236. <Sledge> (7): presentation facilities
  1237. <aj> this is what happens when you walk everywhere...
  1238. <Ganneff> for 7 - SJJ has the technic of the hotel included for free. sjj has the lecture halls in ECA and big rooms in teviot.
  1239. <bdale> traveling on an expense account is definitely a different experience...
  1240. * Sledge nods Ganneff
  1241. <bdale> s/sjj/EDI/, right?
  1242. <Ganneff> sjj has a big room for main talks, with stuff for beamer and sound, and various smaller rooms for other things.
  1243. <Ganneff> edi has the lecture halls or big room, and also various smaller rooms. dont know technic in lecture halls in EDI.
  1244. <marga> So, it's even?
  1245. <Sledge> sounds like
  1246. <bdale> both sound adequate
  1247. <moray> Ganneff: Maulkin and sladen_uk have worked in audiovisual stuff (and kevc_uk does sound stuff), so we have lots of contacts for getting lent/sponsored equipment, besides what's in the venues
  1248. <moray> (so yes, I'd agree both are adequate)
  1249. * h01ger nods to moray
  1250. <Sledge> ok, so even there by all accounts
  1251. <Sledge> moving on in 30s
  1252. <Ganneff> (that even is why i mentioned skip)
  1253. <Sledge> (8) travel logistics
  1254. <Ganneff> plus for EDI, way more airlines there.
  1255. <Sledge> this point is a major plus towards EDI
  1256. <h01ger> visas also
  1257. * marga nods.
  1258. * Signoff: leo8_sjj (Quit: )
  1259. * EmxBA_sjj has left channel #debconf-team
  1260. <bdale> both require 3 airline flights for me. there seem to be more connection options to EDI, and EDI seems to be cheaper though not by a lot.
  1261. <Sledge> ok
  1262. <Sledge> any argument? moving on in 30s
  1263. <bdale> I don't appear to need a visa for either.
  1264. <aj> the one world alliance airlines don't seem to travel to sarajevo, though i need to talk to my travel agent again
  1265. <h01ger> bdale, you us-american :)
  1266. <marga> bdale: it's been shown that from the list of DC6 attendees more people would need a visa to go to SJJ than to go to EDI.
  1267. <moray> Sledge: we may have trouble if a *lot* of Europeans take budget flights to a DebConf in Edinburgh :p
  1268. <Sledge> moray: worry about that as/when
  1269. <h01ger> moray, same is true for SJJ... (probably even more)
  1270. <Ganneff> i think both airports are well connected for the number of people
  1271. <Sledge> moving on to (9) accessibility
  1272. <bdale> marga: I understand that. I just took the time to research what it would take me to get there, so thought I'd comment. I mentioned here before the meeting that neither country is on the list of places I'm supposed to avoid on behalf of my employer, which is good news.
  1273. <Ganneff> 9 is even for both. SJJ has a slight advantage in the hotel, EDI out in the streets with the need for all taxis to have weelchair access. SJJ seems to have a bus for weelchairs for us to use whenever we want. in EDI disabled people most probably need to go to a hotel, not our hostels. (ie together with sponsors that dont take hostels).
  1274. <Maulkin> 22:40 <@Jon_uk> (8) summary?
  1275. <Sledge> Maulkin: ah, true
  1276. * marga nods to Ganneff
  1277. <h01ger> Ganneff, the both airports point is not true
  1278. <h01ger> while i nod to the accessability point of Ganneff :)
  1279. <Ganneff> h01ger: the capacity for the number of people is ok at both locations.
  1280. <Sledge> (8) summary: cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people
  1281. <Ganneff> h01ger: we have a laughable amnount of people going there.
  1282. <h01ger> Ganneff, the capacity yes.
  1283. <Sledge> are we agreed on accessibility?
  1284. <moray> Ganneff: it sounds like you're implying people would need to take taxis: in Edinburgh the ordinary buses are generally wheelchair accessible too; also because we're in the centre probably no attendees would *need* to take a bus even if they want to see the city
  1285. <Ganneff> moray: no. just mentioning the fact.
  1286. <Maulkin> Sledge: I'd rate them ==
  1287. <Ganneff> accessibility is equal
  1288. <h01ger> so both are equal on that
  1289. <Sledge> ok, agreed
  1290. <Sledge> right
  1291. <Sledge> I hope somebody out there is counting these answers
  1292. <Maulkin> Crap. ok.
  1293. <marga> The main problem is not counting but weighing.
  1294. <Sledge> are the 2 teams happy overall with the responses here?
  1295. <aj> okay, so clear draw on (5)-catering; (7), and (9)
  1296. <vedran_sjj> Sledge: sjj is fine
  1297. <h01ger> Sledge, i think cheaper is not the point in 8 (as its 1). but more flights (budgets and less changes) and less visa trouble certainly is.
  1298. <Sledge> EDI: happy with the summaries?
  1299. <Sledge> h01ger: good point, yes
  1300. <aj> different advantages both ways, but no clear winner on (1), and (9)
  1301. <marga> aj: I think 9 was declared equal. 1 is actually like 1a and 1b.
  1302. <h01ger> aj, wasnt 9 equal
  1303. <h01ger> ?!
  1304. <aj> sorry
  1305. <aj> i mean edi-is-better-due-to-X, sjj-is-better-due-to-Y, but it evens out
  1306. * Maulkin is summarising atm
  1307. <marga> So, how do we weigh / decide ?
  1308. <h01ger> i really cannot follow it :-) (to late) - /me suggest to wait for Maulkins summary..
  1309. <h01ger> too late even!
  1310. <Maulkin> 1 cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI
  1311. <Maulkin> 2 edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already.
  1312. <Maulkin> 3 equal
  1313. <Maulkin> 4 both acceptable, edi has more potential bandwidth
  1314. <Maulkin> 5 both can offer good food
  1315. <Maulkin> 6 sjj has advantage
  1316. <Maulkin> 7 equal
  1317. <Maulkin> 8 cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people
  1318. <Maulkin> 9 equal
  1319. <Maulkin> I think
  1320. * h01ger likes to bring back in memory that we priorized them in order of importance
  1321. * Maulkin nods
  1322. <Maulkin> I can do some evil scoring thing if you want.
  1323. <marga> Maulkin: it depends.
  1324. <Maulkin> ie: partial advantage = 0.5, full advantage = 1.
  1325. <Maulkin> Times by 10-priority number
  1326. <Maulkin> Or someone else do it :)
  1327. <Sledge> how do the orga team wish to do this?
  1328. <h01ger> Maulkin, go, Maulkin!
  1329. * fjp (~fjp@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  1330. <Maulkin> Or it's a stupid idea.
  1331. <Maulkin> I dunno! :)
  1332. <marga> I don't know, I don't like scoring, particularly because we didn't really debate the priorities.
  1333. * h01ger thinks this is ok-ish - we could also just weight
  1334. <vedran_sjj> <bdale> if sjj thinks they're slightly ahead on 3, they seem to be slightly behind on 4, so it probably washes out
  1335. <Maulkin> Or we can just do:
  1336. <Maulkin> 22:50 <@Igloo> kevc_uk: The local team who dress up in the silliest outfits win?
  1337. <bdale> drop the equals, weigh the rest
  1338. <marga> So, the points that matter are:
  1339. <marga> 1 - cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI
  1340. <marga> 2 - edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already.
  1341. * sapphire_sjj puts on the silly hat :)
  1342. <marga> 6 - sjj has advantage
  1343. * h01ger nods. but i really think 2 is not correctly summarized. we had a big local team in .mx too.
  1344. <marga> 8 - cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people
  1345. <Ganneff> h01ger: no, we had not.
  1346. <h01ger> (nodding to bdale that was)
  1347. <Ganneff> h01ger: it was said to be there. but wasnt.
  1348. <h01ger> Ganneff, no. not in .mx. but before.
  1349. <Ganneff> h01ger: here we know its there.
  1350. * Signoff: Tincho (Quit: Sayounara)
  1351. * h01ger wont start a wdiscussion about single points now
  1352. <h01ger> (not more as i already did, sorry for that)
  1353. <Maulkin> Quick issue: are we doing this by scoring, or consensus?
  1354. <Sledge> consensus would be better, if possible
  1355. * h01ger nods
  1356. <h01ger> consensus of whom though :)
  1357. <Maulkin> Can we try that first?
  1358. <h01ger> (tahts always the question)
  1359. <aj> i'm not convinced that "more people" balances out the involvement in debian that the uk group have already had; mooch and marga had some specific concerns on that earlier, in particular
  1360. <Maulkin> ok...
  1361. <Maulkin> General comments/concerns on my summary above please :)
  1362. <Maulkin> Are we taking general comments, or just orga?
  1363. <marga> Yes, point 2 should be rephrased.
  1364. <Maulkin> ok
  1365. * Tincho (~martin@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  1366. <moray> Maulkin: comments from whom? I still think Edinburgh has a definite advantage on 5(b) food outside the venue, since that's a lot of the reason I pressed for it to be *in* the city...
  1367. <vedran_sjj> moray: thats debatable
  1368. <marga> 2 - EDI have been more involved in prior debconfs, more in Debian. SJJ has very enthusiastic people, only Safir in DebConf5, although they organized big conferences.
  1369. <Maulkin> So != ?
  1370. <moray> marga: UK people have also been involved in organising big non-Debian conferences, in case you're implying otherwise
  1371. <marga> moray: I was not.
  1372. <Maulkin> 22:55 <@Hydroxide> a bit of input suitable for replaying: items 1 seems to mostly be a washout; 6 and 8 balance out; in item 2, I think that the involvement in debian is an especially important advantage for edi since this is, after all, a DebConf, not a Free Software Conf.
  1373. <h01ger> moray, i think "food outside the venue" is nice (and surely closer in EDI) but i dont think its really much relevant for debconf
  1374. <moray> h01ger: ok, bdale said that was part of what he meant by that criterion
  1375. <h01ger> Maulkin, could you please repost the rephrased complete list? /me is tired of scrolling.. :)
  1376. <Maulkin> Just a sec...
  1377. <aj> we're calling (1), (6)+(8), (7) and (9) balanced for both groups, no?
  1378. <Maulkin> How's this:
  1379. <Maulkin> 1 cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI. Equal
  1380. <Maulkin> 2 EDI have been more involved in prior debconfs, more in Debian. SJJ has very enthusiastic people, only Safir in DebConf5, although they organized big conferences. Edi strong advantage
  1381. <Maulkin> 3 equal
  1382. <bdale> h01ger: it really depends. if you like and/or are satisfied by the group meals, that can work fine. dc4 was like that for me, for example. if you're not, then what's available nearby is very important. in the case of dc6 it was particularly nice to be able to "wander off" in a small group to experience some local food and culture without having to make a big deal about it
  1383. <Maulkin> 4 both acceptable, edi has more potential bandwidth. - equal
  1384. <Maulkin> 5 both can offer good food - euqal
  1385. <Maulkin> 6 sjj stong advantage
  1386. <Maulkin> 7 equal
  1387. <Maulkin> 8 cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people - edi
  1388. <Maulkin> slight advantage
  1389. <Maulkin> 9 equal
  1390. <Maulkin> Please object to this if you think it's wrong :)
  1391. <Maulkin> I'd like to hear from sjj and edi here...
  1392. <Maulkin> As to the above summary
  1393. <aj> (3), i thought there was a slight advantage to sjj; but i haven't studied either venue in enough detail to say
  1394. <vedran_sjj> why is 2 strong advantage for Edi?
  1395. <moray> Maulkin: the 'strong' in 6 seems to be new
  1396. * h01ger thinks 5 is less important as 2+4 are in favor of EDI and 1+3 are equal.
  1397. <aj> (5)-remote food was a slight advantage to edi, i thought too
  1398. * h01ger wonders if he maybe thats why _he_ doesnt care that much about 5?
  1399. <vedran_sjj> aj: as I said before (and you silenced me), food outside venue is much cheaper in sjj
  1400. <moray> aj: obviously I'm partisan, but I didn't feel the working spaces in SJJ were better than what we're proposing - they probably had more carpet, but they seemed more awkward spaces IMO
  1401. <aj> oh, sorry, i should've reminded you to repeat that after moray had finished; doh
  1402. <h01ger> vedran_sjj, how close is that? walking distance?
  1403. <vedran_sjj> h01ger: yes, 5 minutes walk
  1404. <marga> vedran_sjj: because, as it was stated before, it is important for the local team to have been involved in previous DebConfs. stockholm had actually said that it was a "requirement" for one of the local-team to have been an organizer of the previous year DebConf. SJJ has only Safir participating in DC5 as a volunteer, not as an organizer. While EDI has a big group of people who have been attendants/volunteers, and Maulkin was an organizer for DC6.
  1405. <Maulkin> ok...
  1406. <h01ger> and moray hangs out here since idunno
  1407. <Maulkin> 1 equal
  1408. <Maulkin> 2 EDI strong
  1409. <Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight
  1410. <Maulkin> 4 equal
  1411. <Maulkin> 5 equal
  1412. <Maulkin> 6 SJJ stong
  1413. <Maulkin> 7 equal
  1414. <Maulkin> 8 EDI slight
  1415. <Maulkin> 9 equal
  1416. <Maulkin> Which leaves:
  1417. <Maulkin> 2 EDI strong
  1418. <Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight
  1419. <Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong
  1420. <Maulkin> 8 EDI slight
  1421. <aj> (4) and (5) i'd say EDI slight; (8) i'd say EDI "clear"
  1422. <Maulkin> 'clear'?
  1423. * h01ger supports aj
  1424. <aj> strong, but not to say it's more important than the previous priorities
  1425. <h01ger> its prio 8 :)
  1426. <marga> Actually, I thought that we had evened-out 3 and 4. If 3 is SJJ slight (nobody except vedran_sjj knows why), then 4 is EDI slight.
  1427. <Maulkin> aj: ok, strong
  1428. <sapphire_sjj> marga Safir has been in orga team for DC6
  1429. <Maulkin> It'll be done with priorites anyway
  1430. <Maulkin> objections to 4 and 5 edi weak?
  1431. <vedran_sjj> Maulkin: yes objection to 5
  1432. <aj> yes, likewise
  1433. <moray> maulkin: 'edi weak' sounds like you mean 'edinburgh is weak'
  1434. <aj> oh wait
  1435. <Maulkin> Sorry, s/weak/slight/
  1436. <Maulkin> ok...
  1437. <vedran_sjj> Maulkin: 4. Edi has no connectivity in hotel rooms
  1438. <bdale> I commented on that in my email to -team
  1439. * h01ger just noticed that he knows three people wondering what sapphire_sjj did for dc6 - i'm sorry to say this... but
  1440. <Maulkin> vedran_sjj: I think that was seen as a advantage as well as a disadvantage
  1441. <Ganneff> h01ger: work before debconf on some parts
  1442. <bdale> I'm not sure that connectivity in housing is actually a benefit.
  1443. <Maulkin> Can we please agree that (3) and (4) cancel each other out?
  1444. <moray> Maulkin: well, I think Edinburgh's better on both...
  1445. <vedran_sjj> Maulkin: yes it was seen as a way to force people to go to venue, which in sjj is unneccesarry since hotel is the venue
  1446. <h01ger> Maulkin, no, i dont agree
  1447. <Maulkin> ok.
  1448. <Ganneff> this doesnt get us anywhere...
  1449. * h01ger nods Ganneff
  1450. <h01ger> 5min break?
  1451. * marga sighs and nods.
  1452. <sapphire_sjj> h01ger, I did gather information, contacted sponsors and worked on the website
  1453. <h01ger> sapphire_sjj, ok.
  1454. <bdale> vedran_sjj: your point is well taken, but camping out in one's room and being in a public room with others is clearly not socially equivalent
  1455. <Maulkin> (1) is equal, agreed?
  1456. <aj> yes
  1457. <Sledge> yes
  1458. <bdale> vedran_sjj: I'm not saying it's a problem to have connectivity in the housing, just that it's not a clear advantage
  1459. * streuner (~streuner@p54A5E24B.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined channel #debconf-team
  1460. * Maulkin waits...
  1461. <Maulkin> (7) is equal, agreed?
  1462. <aj> yes
  1463. <Sledge> yup
  1464. <Maulkin> 30 secs
  1465. <marga> yes
  1466. * Signoff: fjp (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1467. <Maulkin> (9) is equal, agreed?
  1468. <Maulkin> (30 secs)
  1469. <aj> yes
  1470. <bdale> agreed
  1471. <Sledge> yup
  1472. <Maulkin> ok, thanks
  1473. <Maulkin> Right, now the hard bit :)
  1474. <Maulkin> 2: edi strong.
  1475. <Maulkin> Agreed?
  1476. <aj> yes
  1477. <vedran_sjj> no
  1478. <h01ger> yes
  1479. <Maulkin> (see above for reasoning)
  1480. <sapphire_sjj> no
  1481. <Sledge> Maulkin: yup
  1482. <Maulkin> Ok, we'll come back to 2.
  1483. <marga> yes.
  1484. <Ganneff> slight
  1485. <Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight
  1486. <Ganneff> yes
  1487. <Maulkin> Agreed?
  1488. <moray> Maulkin: I don't get the justification for that yet
  1489. * fjp (~fjp@ip545593b6.speed.planet.nl) has joined channel #debconf-team
  1490. <marga> I don't see the reasoning, but I don't think it's worth the bother discussing it.
  1491. <Maulkin> moray: Is that a disgree?
  1492. <vedran_sjj> moray: 24/7 availability
  1493. <vedran_sjj> moray: video and server rooms
  1494. * Maulkin marks 3 as contested
  1495. <aj> vedran_sjj: moray's noted several times they've confirmed 24/7 availability for edi
  1496. <Maulkin> 4 EDI slight
  1497. <h01ger> me not really neither. but if we if give EDI the benifit of the doubt in "2 EDI strong"..., SJJ has 3 slightly
  1498. <vedran_sjj> aj: confirmed? thats new
  1499. <aj> vedran_sjj: since last week, yes
  1500. <vedran_sjj> aj: video and server rooms remain
  1501. <marga> yes for 4 EDI slight.
  1502. <h01ger> so me takes back what he said before
  1503. * Maulkin hands back to Sledge
  1504. <Maulkin> Or not.
  1505. <Maulkin> Ok.
  1506. <Maulkin> No objections to 4.
  1507. <Maulkin> 5 EDI slight
  1508. <vedran_sjj> Maulkin: 5 no!
  1509. <vedran_sjj> Maulkin: based on what?
  1510. <moray> vedran_sjj: (no, we have these too, as also said earlier)
  1511. <Maulkin> Just state if you have objections please
  1512. <Maulkin> Ok. That's on objection
  1513. <Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong
  1514. <Ganneff> yes
  1515. <sapphire_sjj> Maulking, 5 object
  1516. <h01ger> Maulkin, so 3 was equal? (as i just read on -dicuss that EDI has 24/7 for server/video as well)
  1517. <Maulkin> Sledge: noted
  1518. <marga> yes.
  1519. <Maulkin> h01ger: It's been contested.
  1520. * Maulkin sees no objections to 6
  1521. <Maulkin> 8 EDI strong
  1522. <Maulkin> Objections?
  1523. <aj> sorry, yes to both 6 and 8
  1524. <moray> Maulkin: I think strong was over-egging on 6
  1525. <aj> as in agree, not yes to objections :)
  1526. <h01ger> Maulkin, ? dont know the word "contested"... what is the 3 now? well, i'll wait for the full list
  1527. <aj> moray: hostels versus a hotel seems an advantage to sjj to me
  1528. <marga> yes to 8.
  1529. <Maulkin> moray: Ok, noted.
  1530. <h01ger> aj, 6 is SJJ strong?!
  1531. <Ganneff> h01ger: yes.
  1532. <Maulkin> It's been noted for 6 is in dispute
  1533. <Maulkin> 8 please.
  1534. <moray> aj: ok, I didn't know the point was qualitative rather than 'is there some accomm. appropriately'
  1535. <Maulkin> Edi strong.
  1536. <Maulkin> I see no objections
  1537. <Sledge> 8 is agreed
  1538. <marga> h01ger: having a 4 star hotel that accommodates everyone, instead of two separate hostels sounds like better accomodation to me.
  1539. <Maulkin> (sorry, I'm getting annoyed and want to go to bed)
  1540. <Maulkin> ok!
  1541. <Maulkin> Right, we have 4 contested items. 2,4,5 and 6
  1542. <sapphire_sjj> 6 is agreed as well
  1543. <aj> is (2) contested except by members of the teams it's referring to?
  1544. <h01ger> Maulkin, the contestions from SJJ on 5 have been "revoked" by EDI
  1545. <Ganneff> can we do the rest without *both* local teams? (sorry). they only contest the other side then imo.
  1546. <Maulkin> 2: Edi strong, objection received from vedran_sjj and sapphire_sjj
  1547. * h01ger nods Ganneff
  1548. <moray> Ganneff: I'm happy to keep quiet
  1549. <moray> Ganneff: just didn't want to do so while my input was expected
  1550. <Maulkin> ok.
  1551. <Sledge> moray: thanks
  1552. <Maulkin> sapphire_sjj: Are you ok with that?
  1553. <vedran_sjj> Ganneff: I'll be quiet too
  1554. <Ganneff> ok, so both local teams quiet. :)
  1555. <Maulkin> 2 EDI strong
  1556. * h01ger wonders what the status of 3 is?
  1557. <sapphire_sjj> Maulkin, ok
  1558. <Maulkin> (30 secs)
  1559. * Ned|m_sjj has left channel #debconf-team
  1560. <bdale> item 2 is clearly a question of how the decision-making group feels more than something that can be measured in absolute terms
  1561. <Sledge> yup
  1562. <Ganneff> i would rate 2 as slight.
  1563. <marga> I would rate it as strong
  1564. * vorlon has left channel #debconf-team
  1565. * h01ger would rate it as stronger than slight at least
  1566. <marga> Should we go with semi-strong? slightly-strong?
  1567. * h01ger nods marga
  1568. <Sledge> yuo
  1569. <Maulkin> Ok... semi strong
  1570. <Sledge> yup
  1571. <aj> strong with noted preferences to slight from ganneff?
  1572. * Sledge strangles aj
  1573. <Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight
  1574. <aj> sorry, i typed slow :)
  1575. <Ganneff> and to note it: thats from the meeting with them.
  1576. <Ganneff> from the impression i got.
  1577. <Maulkin> noted objections from moray
  1578. <aj> Ganneff: them = both teams, yes?
  1579. <marga> Ganneff: you've been to both places, would you agree that work areas are the same?
  1580. <Ganneff> aj: nah. i can rate SJJ higher than i would without meeting them. ie i lower the advantage of beeing involved in debian a bit.
  1581. * h01ger wonders what Maulkin noted from moray.
  1582. <Ganneff> aj: but keeping a slight advantage for edi
  1583. <Sledge> right. Maulkin: next point please
  1584. <Maulkin> 23:13 <+moray> Maulkin: I don't get the justification for that yet
  1585. <aj> the argument for SJJ slight was that the venue was 24/7 and had video/server rooms 24/7; but since last meeting the edi team seem to have confirmed both those are available in EDI too
  1586. <Ganneff> for the work areas - similar space. hotel has some more comfort, but space is ok both sides.
  1587. <Maulkin> Ok... is that now equal, or what?
  1588. * h01ger thinks so
  1589. * marga nods.
  1590. <Maulkin> no objections received
  1591. <Maulkin> 5 EDI slight *
  1592. <Maulkin> objections from SJJ
  1593. <marga> I'd say... EDI very slight.
  1594. <Ganneff> edi has more pubs/restaurants *neaer* sjj has something near, but due to edi beeing in the city center there are naturally more.
  1595. <marga> But they can both provide what we would need.
  1596. <aj> aiui they have 24/7 food available, and alternative food available locally; but EDI has morechoices available locally for longer hours
  1597. <bdale> cheap taxis in SJJ might mitigate that, but within walking distance is a powerful differentiator
  1598. <Maulkin> So is slight "right"?
  1599. <h01ger> yes
  1600. <bdale> from what I know, EDI slight seems right
  1601. <aj> yes
  1602. <Sledge> looks like
  1603. <Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong
  1604. <Ganneff> si
  1605. <Maulkin> Objectiosn from a few people
  1606. * h01ger nods
  1607. <Ganneff> the hotel is an advantage here.
  1608. <Maulkin> 23:17 <@h01ger> aj, 6 is SJJ strong?!
  1609. <Maulkin> 23:17 <+moray> Maulkin: I think strong was over-egging on 6
  1610. <Ganneff> strong due to the 4-star hotel
  1611. <Ganneff> and everything in one place.
  1612. <Maulkin> So the proposal is slight, instead of strong.
  1613. * h01ger nods - must have mistyped that one
  1614. <Ganneff> edi has hostels.
  1615. <Ganneff> so strong is ok in this point imo.
  1616. <Maulkin> Ok... I'll leave it as strong, agreed?
  1617. <Ganneff> yes
  1618. <marga> yes
  1619. <Maulkin> Lat point! :)
  1620. <aj> i think strong in the same way travel for edi is strong -- a hostel is acceptable, but a hotel is better, just as we could get to sjj, but it'll be more conveinent to get to edi
  1621. * Sledge nods aj
  1622. <Sledge> Maulkin: go go go!
  1623. * h01ger ment 8 i think
  1624. <Maulkin> yes
  1625. <Maulkin> 8 EDI strong
  1626. <Maulkin> but not contested!
  1627. <Maulkin> So!
  1628. <Maulkin> 2 EDI strong(ish) *
  1629. <Maulkin> Is that Ok with everyone?
  1630. <aj> yes
  1631. <Ganneff> we had that. make the summary.
  1632. <Maulkin> Right, the final (non ==) list is:
  1633. <Maulkin> 2 EDI strong(ish)
  1634. <Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight
  1635. <Maulkin> 4 EDI slight
  1636. <Maulkin> 5 EDI slight
  1637. <Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong
  1638. <Maulkin> 8 EDI strong
  1639. <Maulkin> Enjoy.
  1640. <aj> hrm? i thought 3 became a draw?
  1641. * h01ger nods aj
  1642. <Maulkin> (This is weighted, so don't add up stongs/weaks :P)
  1643. <Maulkin> sorry.
  1644. <Maulkin> 2 EDI strong(ish)
  1645. <Maulkin> 4 EDI slight
  1646. <Maulkin> 5 EDI slight
  1647. <Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong
  1648. <Maulkin> 8 EDI strong
  1649. <aj> 1,3,7,9 draw
  1650. <Maulkin> yes
  1651. <Maulkin> The rest dreaw
  1652. <Maulkin> *draw
  1653. <Sledge> right
  1654. <Sledge> decision
  1655. <Maulkin> Yes
  1656. <Maulkin> Someone from orga make a motion please.
  1657. * Sledge nods
  1658. * h01ger waves
  1659. * Maulkin stabs
  1660. * bdale waits patiently
  1661. <marga> I wonder what we are waiting for
  1662. <h01ger> isnt it obvious?
  1663. <bdale> aj
  1664. <h01ger> so, its edinburgh. now flame me to death.
  1665. <Maulkin> Ok.
  1666. <moray> did aj fall asleep again?
  1667. <Maulkin> Objections form orga?
  1668. <aj> i wish
  1669. <Maulkin> *from
  1670. * h01ger has dinner atm
  1671. <vedran_sjj> I'd like to use this intermission to congratulate Maulkin for excellent leading of this meeting
  1672. <sapphire_sjj> no gwlof, no stockholm
  1673. <aj> likewise
  1674. <Maulkin> It's not over yet...
  1675. <Maulkin> :)
  1676. <Ganneff> vedran_sjj: you know that most was done by sledge and maulkin, not Maulkin alone?
  1677. <Maulkin> But thank you vedran_sjj :)
  1678. <aj> thanks also to both teams for sticking around and being very helpful (and being patient with my napping)
  1679. <Maulkin> Yes, Sledge++
  1680. <marga> vedran_sjj: likewis, I'd like to congratulate you on a great representation from Sarajevo.
  1681. <vedran_sjj> thanks marga
  1682. <Maulkin> That was far too close.
  1683. <Sledge> vedran_sjj and moray: thanks for clear bids and responses to questions tonight
  1684. <Maulkin> Can we have two debconfs a year? ::)
  1685. * Sledge stabs Maulkin
  1686. * Sledge stabs Maulkin again, just in case the first wasn't enough
  1687. * h01ger also really says thanks+kudos to both teams, you're presentations and preparations have been real good
  1688. <Maulkin> Aww!
  1689. <Ganneff> so. now -team has to sort out itself i think. but probably tomorrow...
  1690. <aj> so shall we (a) schedule a time to discuss how we do this in future now this decision's out of the way and we don't have any active bids; and (b) can i talk to the sjj guys about stuff sometime too (in english :)?
  1691. <h01ger> (damn, maybe i should have skipped that politician like "both teams" here. but i mean it.. and would have said it in any case)
  1692. * Sledge nods aj
  1693. <Ganneff> aj: a.) no. that should be done at running debconf.
  1694. <moray> aj: can someone post an 'official' decision
  1695. <Sledge> h01ger: do you really want to have the orga team discussion now?
  1696. <Ganneff> aj: by kicking both teams into a room and loosing the key until they have one location only.
  1697. <vedran_sjj> aj: b) sure! we'll be around
  1698. * broonie_uk is now known as broonie
  1699. <Sledge> Maulkin: thanks for doing the minuting and pri tallying, I'll take it back now if you want to run
  1700. <Maulkin> Sledge: Can you post a decision to debconf-annouce?
  1701. <aj> Ganneff: that's what needs to be discussed
  1702. <h01ger> Sledge, no. as much as i hate to postpone it again or rather to have yet another dc meeting soon... i dont think now would be any good
  1703. * kevc_uk is now known as kevc
  1704. <marga> Ganneff: we might _try_ that on IRC, if we manage to be friendly enough.
  1705. <aj> Sledge: yes please do
  1706. <Sledge> h01ger: ok, cool
  1707. <bdale> it has been approximately 4 hours since this meeting started. I strongly suggest everyone get food and sleep before trying to decide anything else of substance!
  1708. * adioe3_sjj is now known as adioe3
  1709. * marga now with her DC8-candidate hat.
  1710. <Sledge> ok, I'll post an announcement tonight
  1711. <Maulkin> oh yeah
  1712. <h01ger> Ganneff, no. not next debconf. i dont wanna continue now. remember Tolimar?
  1713. <h01ger> (s mail)
  1714. * amar_sjj is now known as amar
  1715. <Ganneff> h01ger: see my comment at 00:38:12
  1716. <Maulkin> ** minutes - see about 2000 lines of backlog and try and condense it. I'm going to have to do this in SPI if I run for secretary, aren't I?
  1717. <Ganneff> Sledge: if you want debconf-announce you need me.
  1718. <aj> Maulkin: yes
  1719. * h01ger greps
  1720. <aj> meeting over, demoderate?
  1721. <Sledge> Ganneff: ok, cool - let's organise that later
  1722. * Sledge nods aj
  1723. * Maulkin nods
  1724. <Sledge> meeting closed
  1725. <marga> Ganneff: we had agreed on deciding the next venue _before_ the current one. But we can discuss it again later on.
  1726. <Ganneff> and i guess it should come from the orga, not you.
  1727. <marga> YIPPEE!
  1728. * Mode change "+o Maulkin" on channel #debconf-team by ChanServ
  1729. * Mode change "-m" on channel #debconf-team by Maulkin