1. --- IRC log started on Mon Jun 6 20:03:18 2005
  2. <gwolf> I am here, although will only be for some time...
  3. <gwolf> and with part of my poor brain :(
  4. <stockholm> three loggers are enough. can you three please coordinate who does it and puts it online later?
  5. <stockholm> ok, lets start then.
  6. <stockholm> general overview:
  7. <toresbe> hmm, my at job failed!
  8. <toresbe> oh well, hrobak was my substitute "at"
  9. <stockholm> we have a lot of open tasks and one month left to get them sorted out.
  10. <stockholm> open tasks: volunteer manager
  11. <stockholm> day trip
  12. <stockholm> we need to sort out a registration problme with more people then we expected
  13. * h01ger would like to have someone to do the job, and follows the topics and announces them... if somebody is willing to do this, please speak up...
  14. <stockholm> tshirts are in limbo, too
  15. <stockholm> the proceedings are to be texed and *printed* somewhere
  16. <slef> stockholm: do you know that UK are probably getting new designs printed for another thing?
  17. <gwolf> stockholm: tshirts? Why?
  18. <stockholm> debian day is in the works, too
  19. <Tolimar> stockholm: The texing is no problem, we found a volunteer for that.
  20. <gwolf> I thought they were already set
  21. <stockholm> gwolf: because of the female style...
  22. <stockholm> yes, teXing will work out fine. (c:
  23. <ASCIIGirl> is really important to have female style?
  24. <stockholm> slef: can you find out prices etc?
  25. <gwolf> stockholm: Ugh... I put that option in because every tshirt seller here has the female sizes as well
  26. <stockholm> ASCIIGirl: not sure, we will see and otherwise work around the problem
  27. <gwolf> But anyway, one month is still a good time to print all the shirts.
  28. <stockholm> the biggest problem is the volunteer manager and the day trip, i think
  29. <stockholm> gwolf: yes, i think so too.
  30. <slef> http://people.debian.org/~neilm/ (discussion http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pipermail/debian-uk/2005-June/thread.html )
  31. <stockholm> ok, i will look later
  32. <gwolf> stockholm: IIRC, you said that it was highly desirable for the volunteer manager to be a Finn, right/
  33. <gwolf> ?
  34. <stockholm> gwolf: yes, but we might need to work with foreign people
  35. <stockholm> teroajk: ?
  36. <stockholm> ateras: ?
  37. <stockholm> is there news?
  38. <gwolf> If no finn is up to that, I might grab the task... I guess my organizational job goes a bit down once we are running
  39. <stockholm> gwolf: i think i could do that in passing together with someone else
  40. <h01ger> Tolimar, maybe^W you should announce a final day to the speakers, when the papers really really have to be ready to be printed...
  41. <nchip> maybe we should tell the late regiserers, that there is no registrations left, except for a volunteer manager :]
  42. <teroajk> I couldn't manage to contact anyone directly yet today, but it's on my urgent-todo list and should be done tomorrow. I'm skeptical as to finding a volunteer even this way, though.
  43. <h01ger> stockholm, why does the volunteer manager needs to be a finn? cause of the language or something else ? (i dont really think so, but you might know better...)
  44. <stockholm> teroajk: can you tell what is the problem?
  45. <Tolimar> h01ger: Yes, I was about to do that. Question would be: What to do, with those, who don't answer at all to the mails?
  46. <stockholm> h01ger: i figure a finn has an easier time to relatet to the local helpers.
  47. <stockholm> Tolimar: tell me who is not answering.
  48. <teroajk> Basically, there are too few finns who would be up to the task and they tend to be overloaded with plenty of stuff.
  49. <stockholm> Tolimar: i will use FORCE (c:
  50. <h01ger> Tolimar, cancel their talks ? (a warning first..)
  51. <Tolimar> stockholm: One second, I had it somewhere in the wiki...
  52. <tiagovaz> hi people
  53. <stockholm> teroajk: do you think this is a huge task?
  54. <stockholm> teroajk: how can we make it easier?
  55. <stockholm> teroajk: we did not find as many volunteers as we had hoped for so far, either
  56. <teroajk> I wouldn't call it huge, but it does take some time before the conference and certainly quite a bit during it. In my case, time before the conference is the big problem as I cannot commit to doing very much.
  57. --- jemtland (fjemtland@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  58. <teroajk> During the conference, I could arrange to be available for pretty much any organisational task.
  59. <h01ger> stockholm, but the local helping fans expect debian people to come from all over... don't they ?
  60. <toresbe> yeah
  61. <stockholm> teroajk: ok, i will try to come up with more detailed job descriptions for the volunteers... do you think you could do the rest?
  62. <toresbe> I'm there as a full-time volunteer, usually video guy
  63. <toresbe> but if you need a cable monkey or anything, I can be grabbable
  64. <Tolimar> stockholm: http://wiki.debian.net/?DebConf5TodoTalks , 5 didn't answered yet
  65. <ateras> stockholm: I'm trying to avoid tasks as far possible, as I have little free time during next three weeks and planning to be away (unreachable by email etc.) June 23 - July 3.
  66. <stockholm> ok
  67. <Tolimar> (five talks, not five people)
  68. <teroajk> stockholm: Rest of the volunteer manager tasks? No. Things like finding the people, placing them, answering their questions, making timetables - they need to be done before the conference and that's exactly when I can't commit to doing them.
  69. <ateras> stockholm: However, I can send a call to the official announcement list of Finnish Linux User Group if somebody could step up? Tero already emailed the discussion list but it didn't go to the announcements.
  70. <stockholm> ateras: please do that
  71. <stockholm> i am not sure what we can do to help finding a suitable person...
  72. <ateras> stockholm: So the main two positions would be volunteer manager and day trip organizer?
  73. <stockholm> we abroad, i mean
  74. <stockholm> can you finns have a meeting about this?
  75. <stockholm> ateras: yes.
  76. <nchip> Live meeting or irc meeting?
  77. <stockholm> the day trip should be one workday, i think
  78. <stockholm> nchip: what ever does the job and is convenient.
  79. <stockholm> phone if oyu like (c:
  80. <stockholm> day trip is only a few phone calls and writeup info for the website etc
  81. <stockholm> perhaps some interaction with me about the budget and costs
  82. <stockholm> could anyone read liw's mail?
  83. <nchip> the daytrip is still targetting to suomenlinna (viapori)
  84. <stockholm> it was in finnish and i am not good at that
  85. <stockholm> nchip: yes
  86. <stockholm> did it have lots of helpfull details?
  87. <nchip> I can try to get the daytrip rolling this week
  88. <stockholm> would it help to bounce it to fishpool.fi?
  89. <gwolf> Anyway... I'd expect (but I might be wrong) that most Finns have a decent grasp of English, so I don't know if this would be a real advantage to be a local...
  90. <stockholm> nchip: taht would be good.
  91. <stockholm> gwolf: calling people in the country is better done by a local.
  92. <ateras> stockholm: Writing the mail ... about the tasks, should I put you as the contact for more info and signing up? Some more volunteers (although not the coordinator) may also show up, where should they sign up currently?
  93. <stockholm> ateras: yes, you can do that. (c:
  94. <gwolf> stockholm: That's true. But coordinating a group of volunteers does not _require_ that.
  95. * teroajk must leave for a while
  96. <stockholm> gwolf: can we have a way for volunteers to leave their private info in comas?
  97. <gwolf> It requires you to say "Hey, $NAME, please call $PLACE and thell them to ..... )
  98. <gwolf> stockholm: Which kind of information?
  99. <gwolf> They could use the 'comments' field, or I can add something more specific
  100. * h01ger also thinks that a lot of volunteers will be DDs - if we ask them to... we should!!
  101. <stockholm> gwolf: mobile phone, task, name. email
  102. <gwolf> Ok. I'll add the fields... Tomorrow.
  103. <stockholm> gwolf: but they must be able to create new accounts if they want to help
  104. <gwolf> That's true :-/
  105. <gwolf> Then... What would you say if:
  106. <nchip> liw is suggesting in that mail to get bus rented from otaniemi -> kauppatori, but people would still need to get tickets for the boat from kauppatori to suomenlinna
  107. <gwolf> - Tomorrow I work on setting up the logging infrastructure
  108. <stockholm> h01ger: we should not do that if we can avoid it, since they serve an other purpose there.
  109. <gwolf> - After that, I can work on adding the functionality we need for volunteers
  110. <fabbe> just dropping a small info-bit here: the video team has been gathering members since a while back and they are not recorded anywhere except in my own documents and on the debconf-video list. It's unrealistic to think that they could register or anything like that.
  111. <gwolf> stockholm: BTW... You didn't answer my question regarding Don's voting patch ~1hr ago
  112. <h01ger> fabbe, cant parse the last sentence. and i have notes, too ;)
  113. <stockholm> gwolf: because i was busy and could not read it yet
  114. <gwolf> ok. When we leave this topic, I'll come back to it ;-)
  115. <martinl> fabbe: can the names be in the wiki?
  116. <stockholm> can we conclude this liek this: nchip will take over the day trip and the finns will meet online/phone/whatnot and try to come up with a way to find a good volunteer manager?
  117. <fabbe> h01ger: :) i mean that some of the people on my list won't register even if it's technically possible, and to answer martinl, they just want to show up and be told what to do. They might not even know what a wiki is.
  118. <stockholm> one more important technical bit:
  119. <gwolf> fabbe: But we need to keep track of who is responsible for that - Maybe you, as a team leader, can register them?
  120. <martinl> ok -- but for our purposes of keeping track of howm any hands we'vegot .?
  121. <h01ger> fabbe: full ACK.
  122. <gwolf> stockholm: BTW... Thinking about this, I think we'll be better off with the volunteer's information in one central place
  123. <stockholm> i got a sponsor (a DD) who will give us access to his sms - mass sending app. we can define groups of people (eg video) and send all video people a sms info for the next day/hour or so
  124. <gwolf> ...Maybe they can fill it in Comas, but I'd rather have a Wiki page with the relevant info...
  125. <h01ger> fabbe, did i read your mail right, you wont attend debconf5 physically ? (and thx for the info about l-a, btw ;)
  126. <stockholm> this is a good tool to get info to distributed people.
  127. <fabbe> gwolf: well I'm just helping out the video team by recruiting people for it but if required I can input their data somewhere
  128. <gwolf> ... We can generate, yes, the view from Comas to put this data together, though :) (my brain is in scattered mode, it seems)
  129. <martinl> stockholm: can the vid team get a phone or sms pager or two ;) ?
  130. <fabbe> h01ger: no, the complete opposite. I'm already here and will be here for the whole event and long after.
  131. <gwolf> fabbe: I think that'll be a good help. We need the data together.
  132. <gwolf> And anyway, we'll use the Comas system to print nametags and such.
  133. <stockholm> martinl: it has a webinterface.
  134. <h01ger> fabbe, ah, good ;)
  135. <slef> What is comas?
  136. <gwolf> slef: the conference management system
  137. <fabbe> gwolf: ok, what I need is somewhere more or less private to put their details for the appropriate people to see.
  138. <gwolf> the system you register your data in
  139. <stockholm> next topic?
  140. <gwolf> fabbe: of course, that'd be an administrative action, not a public one
  141. <martinl> to receive sms???
  142. <gwolf> agree.
  143. <fabbe> gwolf: excellent :)
  144. <gwolf> stockholm: My topic.
  145. * h01ger doesnt see anybody following topics ? nobody announces them either ? whats next ?
  146. <stockholm> martinl: get a prepaid card in finland
  147. <martinl> stockholm: I am thinking of non-finns like me
  148. <stockholm> gwolf: please go ahead
  149. <martinl> ack
  150. <gwolf> We have Don's patch for rating talks and generating the schedules...
  151. <gwolf> Now, he thought he'd set it up just for the accepted talks, and I didn't put much thought into that...
  152. <gwolf> But talking with stockholm, I think we will have to open it to allow casting votes for any of the available talks
  153. <stockholm> it is for all the bofs as well
  154. <gwolf> this means, official talks and BoFs, am I right?
  155. <stockholm> yes
  156. <gwolf> Ok, that's it... I'll work on opening it (but keeping nonexsitant talks out)
  157. <gwolf> ...and will have it ready soon
  158. <stockholm> cool
  159. <gwolf> Now... As soon as I have it... should I mail -event?
  160. <stockholm> gwolf: mail -team first
  161. <gwolf> ok
  162. <stockholm> if it works for us, mail event
  163. <gwolf> good
  164. <nchip> gwolf: I think personal mails to people voting should be sent first?
  165. <ASCIIGirl> gwolf, when its ready would you plz tell me so I announceit on the website? :
  166. * martinl with holger about topics
  167. <h01ger> when will the voting period end and the "final" schedule be announced ?
  168. <gwolf> You can all check it as it is now, with the 14 approved talks
  169. <nchip> or will everyone who has registered vote for them?
  170. <gwolf> at /attendee/account/voting, IIRC
  171. <gwolf> ASCIIGirl: 'fcourse
  172. <stockholm> nchip: everyone votes
  173. <stockholm> nchip: the goal is that everyone can attent the talk he is interested in
  174. <stockholm> and the bofs
  175. <stockholm> and to get as many talks/bofs parallel, to have as little congestion as possible
  176. --- Signoff: martinl (Nick collision from services.)
  177. <nchip> ok, then we just need to have a tight voting period
  178. <stockholm> gwolf: done?
  179. * gwolf done.
  180. <stockholm> ok, next...
  181. <stockholm> i can do sponsoring...
  182. <h01ger> whats next ?
  183. <gwolf> nchip: The voting period doesn't need to be _THAT_ tight - If you don't vote, no harm - It is not as if you hadn't confirmed :)
  184. <stockholm> we have 110kEuros (or more, did not check recently)
  185. <stockholm> but we have many people coming. more then expected.
  186. --- martinl_ (~martinlan@202-0-36-112.cable.paradise.net.nz) has joined channel #debconf-team
  187. <stockholm> the house is full and the food is gone. (c:
  188. <h01ger> stockholm, gwolf: when will the voting period end (for the bofs and talks) and the "final" schedule be announced ?
  189. <stockholm> what is remaining is to remind some sponsors to send out the money and to go through all the people who requested sponsorship and check if they are coming too
  190. <braindmg> hi, mooch is coming in 10 minutes or so ...
  191. <nchip> personally I think that we cap the amount of food, and everyone over that will pay for their own food
  192. <gwolf> stockholm: As I told Sven Muller, unfortunately we have by far exceeded our most optimistic hopes :)
  193. <stockholm> h01ger: no final schedule. not important now. ask on the list.
  194. <toresbe> urgh, my damned monitor malfunctioned, had to take care of it :\
  195. <gwolf> h01ger: AFAICT, you will be able to vote all during Debconf, the schedule might change daily
  196. <Q-FUNK> gwolf: I still need to parse thru accepted proposals and see which ones I can "steal" for Debian Day ;)
  197. <stockholm> nchip: yes, we can do that, if possible.
  198. <dondelelcaro> gwolf: you can vote throughout debconf, but it won't change the schedule...
  199. <stockholm> nchip: can people pay the cafeteria in chash, for food?
  200. <h01ger> stockholm, this is important for people planning their trips. they want to know when they can finally plan their trips...
  201. <gwolf> Q-FUNK: Ok, that's something different - We have to separate debian-day from everything-else before voting!
  202. <nchip> stockholm: atleast for lunch, I'll check the rest
  203. <gwolf> dondelelcaro: is it so? I thought it'd be a fast-changing beast :)
  204. <dondelelcaro> gwolf: it will have to solidify at some point, otherwise the algorithm is too complex
  205. <stockholm> h01ger: what is important?
  206. <h01ger> gwolf, i'm not convinced yet/at all this is a good idea
  207. <h01ger> <stockholm> h01ger: no final schedule. not important now. ask on the list.
  208. <stockholm> h01ger: nonsense.
  209. <stockholm> h01ger: read the faq on the website
  210. <stockholm> nchip: can people pay the cafeteria in chash, for food?
  211. <stockholm> nchip: for all meals?
  212. <nchip> 22:37 < nchip> stockholm: atleast for lunch, I'll check the rest
  213. <stockholm> ah, ok
  214. <stockholm> thanks
  215. * h01ger did. and after reading this i think even more, that "nonsense" wasnt a good answer. also the speakers want to know a little in advance when their talk+bofh is planned.
  216. <stockholm> nchip: we can have support for signing up for food beforehand in the website
  217. <stockholm> i am done with sponsorship.
  218. <nchip> stockholm: why can't we just give food tickets to people when they sign in?
  219. <stockholm> nchip: we can do that, but it is not very flexible.
  220. <gwolf> stockholm: Now... How will people in the cafeteria check who to serve to?
  221. <gwolf> Will they check nametags?
  222. <ASCIIGirl> how are we going to put "the food was given by intel" on the tickets? we should print our own tickets, or just put them a stamp?
  223. <gwolf> Will we give them a list of people to be fed before each meal?
  224. <stockholm> gwolf: no, they check food tickets
  225. <toresbe> haha, stable! Sarge! Satan is wearing mittens :)
  226. <nchip> the web signup seems to make it just a bit more complex to manage the tickets
  227. <toresbe> ASCIIGirl: put "INTEL INSIDE" on the bowls? :)
  228. <gwolf> Ok... And (shit, should I read further above?) we will hand out the tickets daily?
  229. <ASCIIGirl> lol toresbe !
  230. <nchip> ASCIIGirl: It's been worked on
  231. <stockholm> gwolf: did you read my mail on the topic to the mailinglist today?
  232. <ASCIIGirl> ok nchip , if you need somebody to put stamps I can work on that....
  233. <gwolf> no, I have just skimmed on the mails. But if you already mailed, I'll shut up
  234. <stockholm> i mailed this morning
  235. <gwolf> ok
  236. <stockholm> did anyone read my mail and has any questions reagarding this?
  237. <stockholm> nchip: you?
  238. <fabbe> stockholm: I proposed to hand out the correct amount of food tickets as people check in and let people swap them as they please. that seems simple and effective.
  239. <stockholm> fabbe: it does not handle the moving meals backwards in time.
  240. --- h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "food"
  241. * h01ger will change it back later...
  242. <fabbe> stockholm: I don't understand?
  243. <stockholm> fabbe: eating a meal you did not have on sunday on wednesday
  244. * stockholm checks if he finds his email to paste it to the channel
  245. <fabbe> stockholm: I still don't get it. If I'm given three food tickets, I will be able to eat three times, right?
  246. <fabbe> stockholm: or is it to prevent me from eating at the wrong time?
  247. <gwolf> stockholm: ...And if 70% of us decide not to eat one day (and the food rots) and then demand double meals the next day (and we all starve)? :)
  248. <h01ger> fabbe, yes.
  249. <fabbe> ok then I see the problem
  250. <h01ger> but you can give away your ticket and someone else can eat you food then.
  251. <h01ger> s/you food/your food/
  252. <stockholm> fabbe: no, each food ticket would be only good for one specific meal
  253. <stockholm> fabbe: the kitchen needs to know beforehand how many people will come each day
  254. <mooch> re
  255. <martinl_> holger: video status when? I'm preparing some notes but have to leave soon
  256. <stockholm> fabbe: these are the days of debconf:
  257. <h01ger> does everybody agree to change topic ?
  258. <stockholm> 125 | 18 | 2.
  259. <stockholm> 170 | 24 | 5.
  260. <stockholm> 179 | 25 | 6.
  261. <stockholm> 182 | 25 | 6.
  262. <stockholm> 179 | 26 | 6.
  263. <stockholm> 177 | 26 | 6.
  264. <stockholm> 174 | 25 | 6.
  265. <stockholm> 144 | 17 | 6.
  266. <h01ger> martinl_, "no" it seems... ;-)
  267. <martinl_> or did I miss it (video-status update)?
  268. <stockholm> differnt days have differnt amount of meals consumed
  269. <h01ger> martinl_, no you didnt miss it.
  270. <martinl_> holger: thx
  271. <stockholm> if we people dont eat meals on monday they *could* be eaten on a later day if the kitchen knows in time
  272. <fabbe> stockholm: ok, let's continue to the next topic and have the kitcken people involved in this to make it work for real
  273. <stockholm> yes
  274. <stockholm> h01ger: your video update?
  275. <nchip> the kitchen won't be able to react "real-time", they ave ordered the ingredigents previous day
  276. <h01ger> martinl_, (video): there isnt much news. besides the mails on debconf5-video the last days. we have a schedule, a list of people, but no final setup. wiki../Debconf5ToDoVideoStreaming still has to be structured soon
  277. <stockholm> nchip: yes, that is mentioned in the mail
  278. --- h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "video"
  279. <fabbe> nchip: you're probably right, but I say involve the kitchen in the planning and we won't have to guess
  280. <martinl_> ok -- I'm back from the cold and been working on video
  281. <stockholm> h01ger: how do you feel are you doing time-wise?
  282. <martinl_> need to figure out exactly what HW we have
  283. <ateras> holger: By the way, asked about whether the three laptops we're getting from IBM have firewire, but no answer yet
  284. <h01ger> stockholm: mostly fine. _i'm_ to busy currently :-|
  285. <martinl_> because fluendo/theora is much more cpu heavy than expected
  286. <stockholm> ateras: the intel ones will have
  287. <h01ger> ateras, could you please stick on getting an answer ?! :-)
  288. <stockholm> h01ger: ok.
  289. <martinl_> ateras: we are getting ibm laptops for encoding?
  290. <hrobak_> I doubt Theora can be compressed in real time reliably.
  291. <stockholm> can anyone else from the video team help out?
  292. <martinl_> usb2 is as good as fw anyway
  293. <jlightsey> Better since the cameras are on firewire
  294. <hrobak_> martinl_: Not for a camera!
  295. <h01ger> i will work on the CS maps next (doesnt take long) and then prepare the fai setup for the video people to try at home. so we can work on the setup before debconf...
  296. <martinl_> theora-mmx is what the fluiendo gang are using
  297. <martinl_> sorry -- the cameras do need FW ; )
  298. <martinl_> I was thinking HD transfers.
  299. <h01ger> but we have to finalize the setup. (streaming from the laptops to a editing server or writing on hd and carry it to the server later)
  300. <martinl_> Should we think of getting pcmicia FW?
  301. <ateras> stockholm: Cool, then it's not so crucial whether the IBM ones do or not
  302. <stockholm> the intel notebooks will have firewire. i asked them to see to that
  303. <hrobak_> USB2 will work nicely for the HDs.
  304. <nchip> .oO( usb2-fw adaapters exist too, but this is getting to too detailed discussion )
  305. <martinl_> I've got the setup sussed out, and I am demoing it on my lan
  306. <hrobak_> Two drives simultaneously on a laptop is no sweat.
  307. <h01ger> stockholm: glad you said that (firewire) - we really need it...
  308. <martinl_> holger: been working on the setup.
  309. <h01ger> ...cause the cams have firewire
  310. <stockholm> is the video part done? it sounds good to me
  311. <h01ger> martinl_, which setup ?
  312. <martinl_> We'll want to be editing the talks page to add the relevant links. is that in comas?
  313. <fabbe> just one addition: handling the camera crew
  314. <stockholm> can someone perhaps unload h0lger?
  315. <martinl_> holger: Fluendo configuration
  316. <fabbe> there needs to exist some basic docs about the setup so the cam people know what they are doing
  317. <martinl_> the fluendo/theora thing has been a mess because I'm on ppc and it doesn't work well
  318. <h01ger> martinl_, what were the server side / firewall requirements to stream with fluendo ?
  319. <martinl_> fabbe: I'm covering teh cam operator workflow too.
  320. <h01ger> fabbe, yes. i propose to use a wiki.
  321. <martinl_> we'll want to open one high port _or_ one high port per camera (3 ports)
  322. <gwolf> Guys... I have to leave you for today :-(
  323. <fabbe> also there needs to be an understanding of task division, especially since we may get people who have real director experience and are used to viewing the whole situation from a different perspective as tech-people (the techs are extensions to the hardware as far as they are concerned)
  324. <martinl_> but it seems we'll have heaps of real IPs right?
  325. <h01ger> martinl_, could you please write a mail to the list and propose a complete design. from the audience to the browser at $home
  326. <stockholm> gwolf: bye, thanks
  327. <h01ger> ?
  328. <gwolf> Have my traditional-3:30PM-Monday-meeting
  329. <martinl_> won't every encoding box have a real ip?
  330. <gwolf> ...Count on my job, and bug me if I'm late :)
  331. <gwolf> !
  332. --- gwolf has left channel #debconf-team
  333. <martinl_> holger -- been drafting if right now ;)
  334. <h01ger> martinl_, we have a dual-xeon (or quad?) server dedicated for the video team...
  335. <stockholm> can thoes details be done later?
  336. <martinl_> fabbe: if ppl want to shoot a "movie" they'll want other cameras
  337. <martinl_> fabbe: this setup is for talks being streamed
  338. <stockholm> can the video team deal with this on their own?
  339. <martinl_> fabbe:which is boring as well
  340. <stockholm> hello?
  341. <h01ger> martinl_, fabbe: we have not finalized whether we stream or record. martinl_, please take this into account, ie. prepare _two_ propasals / setups...
  342. <stockholm> can we continue with the debainday?
  343. <martinl_> of course -- if ppl help us with good framing, camera work sound & lighting, then great
  344. <h01ger> stockholm, please change /topic then!
  345. <martinl_> ok -- back into my corner
  346. <h01ger> :)
  347. --- stockholm has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "DebianDay"
  348. <stockholm> fabbe, Q-FUNK ?
  349. <stockholm> Tolimar: ?
  350. <stockholm> jaldhar is not here
  351. * h01ger is still unhappy with that nonsense about the schedules. imho the faq is nonsense.
  352. <Tolimar> Nothing to say about that, from me.
  353. <stockholm> h01ger: later
  354. <Q-FUNK> re
  355. <Tolimar> Just, that I'm sorry, that I didn't "resigned" earlier.
  356. <stockholm> Q-FUNK: can you fill us in on how the debian day is doing and if you have any blockers we can help with?
  357. <Tolimar> I send Jaldhar all mails I send regarding DebianDay, and he didn't had any further questions. I take that as a good sign ;)
  358. <Q-FUNK> no blockers so far. got bdale to confirm he's making a presentation, waiting on others to confirm.
  359. <stockholm> fine.
  360. <fabbe> I'm waiting for confirmation from Branden
  361. <Q-FUNK> got a comment from aigars that he didn't even know his talk had been accepted, let alone scheduled for debian day.
  362. <stockholm> ah. (c:
  363. <stockholm> is that all? then we can continue.
  364. <stockholm> thanks for doing this
  365. --- Signoff: ateras ("Leaving")
  366. --- stockholm has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "timetable"
  367. <stockholm> please look at http://wiki.debian.net/?DebConf5Schedule LATER
  368. <Q-FUNK> it seems that we need a more proactive feedback on confirming if someone's talk has been accepted and when exactly it has been scheduled in the debconf/debday schedule.
  369. <stockholm> and fill in what you can think of
  370. <mooch> one thing we have to specify is that the 18th nobody can sleep in otaniemi
  371. <mooch> also, we have to plan the daytrip, because that day nothing will happen in the CSD
  372. <fabbe> adding to that, it would be good to have a better separation of what is actually meant to be available for debian day and what is not
  373. <Q-FUNK> they don't just need to know if it was accepted, they need to know when it is. some people don't attend all days and we have to be prepared to adjust with them.
  374. <stockholm> mooch: nchip does the daytrip
  375. <mooch> again: CSD -> Computer Sciences Department (conferences) / Smokki -> Hacklab / Otaz/dorm/... -> dormitory
  376. <mooch> i already told to the CSD that the 13 (wed) we will not need the conference area
  377. <h01ger> mooch, hi, why will on the daytrip nothing happen in the CSD ? because nothing is planned or arent we "allowed" ?
  378. <mooch> who is not coming to the daytrip can stay in the hacklab
  379. <h01ger> ah
  380. <Q-FUNK> nchip: what do you have in mind for the daytrip? tango at the tuusula tanssilava?
  381. <stockholm> Q-FUNK: sveaborgen
  382. <Q-FUNK> bra
  383. <mooch> h01ger: we have a daytrip, so there is no sense in reserving the whole 300 ppl conference hall for nothing...
  384. * hrobak_ goes away for a while
  385. <stockholm> daytrip not now...
  386. <mooch> Q-FUNK: no tango here...
  387. <mooch> we have to specify more details in the schedule, and publish it on the debconf place, on a table
  388. <mooch> day by day
  389. <mooch> _official_ schedule, not planfor work schedule
  390. <stockholm> yes. that would be a nice task for the web-mistress
  391. <nchip> sveaborg is the current plan, it may change if someone has better ideas, and wants to do those plans too :)
  392. <stockholm> mooch: what schedule do you mean?
  393. <mooch> what will be happening every day...
  394. <stockholm> like daytrip, formal dinner, keysigning party, sauna?
  395. * fabbe wishes we could discuss one topic at a time and get proper conclusions for each
  396. <mooch> kind of things like: everyday at 15.45 we move back to the hacklab and stuff...
  397. <mooch> and sauna/daytrip/... stuff
  398. <stockholm> ah, ok
  399. <mooch> yes
  400. <stockholm> ASCIIGirl: can you do that?
  401. <ASCIIGirl> Im reading what I have to do :)
  402. <h01ger> mooch: "the CSD is only open at $eventtime"
  403. <stockholm> ASCIIGirl: collect that info and put it up?
  404. <mooch> gwolf was thinking we could start the conferences timetable at 11/12, because he did not know that we have to close CSD at 15.45 everyday
  405. <ASCIIGirl> ok.. :) Ill work on that...
  406. <mooch> a table with daily activities would be nice, and fill it in when we have the more or less final talks settled
  407. --- Signoff: antonm ("dIEEAAA")
  408. <stockholm> can everyone please send dates to the team mailing list with a [DATE] in the subject?
  409. <mooch> more topics? local logistics?
  410. <stockholm> that would help ASCIIGirl to collect that data
  411. <ASCIIGirl> yes plz! :)
  412. <stockholm> is that all on the timetable?
  413. <h01ger> mooch, according to the faq the schedules will be ready when they are ready. according to stockh0lm this means on demand - every day. i dont think this will work. at speakers want to plan their lives+talk as well...
  414. <stockholm> mooch: can you continue with the network?
  415. <stockholm> h01ger: not *that* on demand.
  416. <h01ger> mooch, yes please. i'll mail about that anyway...
  417. <stockholm> like food there will be a grace time of aproximatly 24 hours
  418. <mooch> h01ger: still: 10.00 talk1 11.30 talk2 kind of timetable MUST be done
  419. --- stockholm has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "networking"
  420. <stockholm> mooch: not now
  421. <h01ger> mooch, yes.
  422. <mooch> i got confirmation from HUT that most of the services we requested are granted, except services that are open to external clients
  423. <mooch> that means streaming might need to be pushed to another machine where they can get the feed ...
  424. <stockholm> like... video streaming clients?
  425. <stockholm> duh
  426. <h01ger> mooch, 2nd half of that sentence ? what does it mean ?
  427. <h01ger> "another machine" = outside HUT ?
  428. <mooch> probably we will get that server from the student network, since they approved all the requested services without much problems...
  429. <mooch> another machine = outside hut or inside hut outside the HUT network
  430. <stockholm> ok. that will not be a problem? bandwidth wise?
  431. <mooch> the network is divided into two parts: HUT (aka TKK) and student network (aka Trinet aka TKY net)
  432. <h01ger> what network is there inside the HUT outside the hut network ?
  433. <mooch> bandwith wise we have plenty
  434. <martinl_> mooch: does it mean that we can push the video to one server that streams to intarweb?
  435. <mooch> student network is inside the HUT campus, but is not in the HUT network supervision
  436. <h01ger> mooch, ah ok. good ;)
  437. <stockholm> cool
  438. <mooch> we mightbe able to push the video somewhere else,where there is access andplenty of BW
  439. <mooch> even my house
  440. <martinl_> mooch: how fast is the wired network?
  441. <mooch> 8)
  442. <mooch> martinl_: 100mbs the slowest
  443. <martinl_> lol
  444. <mooch> i will get more info this week
  445. <Q-FUNK> csc r us
  446. <stockholm> mooch: do you know if we will have gbit or 100mbit to otaz?
  447. <stockholm> ok
  448. <h01ger> no problems with bandwidth means ? unlimited traffic ? whats the limits ?
  449. <mooch> there are some gigabit links between the depsrtments, and a ring of 5GB was built 6 years ago, which MUST have been updated...
  450. <martinl_> if we have giga from video encoding machines to one central server it'll sort out some issues
  451. --- Signoff: damog (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  452. <martinl_> but I think tthat's too much to ask for ;)
  453. <mooch> the encoding machines and the central server might be linked with GB
  454. <mooch> i got a GB switch from nokia which we will be using
  455. <stockholm> *nod*
  456. <martinl_> excellent!
  457. <h01ger> martinl_, and we should get a dedicated line from the auditorium to the server. can we delete the word "should" in that sentence ?
  458. <martinl_> have we got any server with 1.5 TB to spare ;)
  459. <martinl_> ?
  460. <mooch> we have to visit the TKY network people to see where and what we are getting for smokki
  461. <stockholm> martinl_: i asked for BIG hd capacity from intel
  462. <mooch> we will be doing this as time permits...
  463. <liiwi> muu
  464. <stockholm> liiwi: huhu
  465. <martinl_> stockholm: great!
  466. <liiwi> mooch: tell me when, I'll join.
  467. <stockholm> what else is interesting about the network?
  468. <martinl_> when do we know if we have those things? (HD space, GBit ether)
  469. <stockholm> we will get some switches from intel
  470. <liiwi> cool
  471. <stockholm> we can set up APs ahead of time (done by intel engineer)
  472. <stockholm> i think that is it, right?
  473. <anibal> stockh0lm, do we need to bring our own APs?
  474. <h01ger> i want a complete list of the hardware... and a map. i'll start those documents and you can improve them after
  475. <h01ger> anibal: yes for the dorms
  476. <stockholm> anibal: most likely not
  477. <h01ger> stockholm, yes... ^^^
  478. --- tassia (~tassia@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  479. <liiwi> stockholm: awesome, also the core network should be up as early as possible.
  480. <stockholm> yes
  481. <liiwi> stockholm: as in, where are we going to connect the AP's etc.
  482. --- Signoff: tiagovaz ("Fui embora")
  483. <anibal> mooch, what type of network is in the dorms?
  484. --- tiagovaz (~tiago@ has joined channel #debconf-team
  485. <h01ger> liiwi, please fill up http://wiki.debian.net/?DebConf5Schedule ;-)
  486. <mooch> 100mb with dynamic ip addresses ethernet
  487. <stockholm> liiwi: dont know about the cabling. can you coordinate with mycroft from intel to be there so he can show you what he did?
  488. <mooch> the problem with the cabling should be solved by talking with the network people in otaniemi
  489. <mooch> we have to visit them next week and check all the eth points
  490. <liiwi> stockholm: I think we need to meet up with mooch and TKY network people to get things sorted out.
  491. <liiwi> stockholm: I can be there when he installs them, if it's in june..
  492. <mooch> and when i say we have, i mean we HAVE to
  493. <liiwi> mooch: tell me the date and I'll be there.
  494. <stockholm> mooch: right
  495. <stockholm> great.
  496. <stockholm> this will work, i guess.
  497. <stockholm> was that all from the networking department?
  498. <mooch> i got ablueprint
  499. --- stockholm has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "Status of the housing, blueprints (mooch)"
  500. <stockholm> good.
  501. <mooch> from smokki, but has no access points or eth places... nor cabling
  502. <ASCIIGirl> brb
  503. <hrobak_> back
  504. <stockholm> mooch: a general overview map of the area?
  505. <mooch> housing: we got the house and the contract almost signed
  506. <stockholm> mooch: was that the one you got in paper mail?
  507. <stockholm> yes.
  508. <mooch> i got also a map, but need to scan it... i am reserving this for wed... i have something tomorrow the hwole day
  509. <h01ger> stockholm: definitly a good idea ;-)
  510. <mooch> not, i went today there to pick it up
  511. <mooch> stockholm: i have also a map of otaniemi, but might need some work... it is the one from the phonebook
  512. <stockholm> who can put all the maps together into a nice little paper folder?
  513. <mooch> stockholm: ?
  514. <mooch> what for?
  515. <stockholm> the interesting ones.
  516. --- Signoff: jlightsey ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.11")
  517. <stockholm> for people to find it on the web to find there
  518. <mooch> to give them to the people coming?
  519. <stockholm> scratch the "paper"
  520. <stockholm> and that, perhaps
  521. <liiwi> high level overlay map?
  522. <mooch> we can go to the tourism office and get maps...
  523. <stockholm> at the place the overview map would be nice
  524. <stockholm> great.
  525. <stockholm> get 250.
  526. <mooch> but not high resolution or anything...
  527. <stockholm> or we can print them at the location on the printer
  528. <mooch> we will get one with otaeniemi asap
  529. <stockholm> nice.
  530. <mooch> stockholm: i will get them and print something in nokia ;)
  531. <stockholm> who can take care of that?
  532. <stockholm> good.
  533. <stockholm> thanks
  534. <h01ger> mooch, with only the buildings relevant to debconf5 ?
  535. <mooch> h01ger: those are easy... we can even put pics of the places beside the map so that people can actually see what they are lookingfor
  536. <mooch> we have to do a day trip to get pics of the way from the airport to HUT
  537. <nchip> dc5 buildings in a stronger shade than the unintresting buildings, preferrable. but with only dc5 buildings will do too.
  538. <mooch> perhaps this coming saturday
  539. <stockholm> that would be very valuable. yes.
  540. <stockholm> done?
  541. <stockholm> anything from the web-team?
  542. <ASCIIGirl> not much
  543. --- stockholm has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "website"
  544. <ASCIIGirl> just if you find faqs..plz leave them on a private msg to me
  545. <stockholm> right. that is important
  546. <ASCIIGirl> cause Im horrible to think about the FAQs
  547. <stockholm> preferably answered. (c:
  548. <mooch> i wanted to add something to the agenda, but forgot what...
  549. <mooch> oh!
  550. <martinl_> video team will want to update talks page with links to videos ;)
  551. <martinl_> each end of day
  552. <mooch> we need to send a mail to the subscribers of the list with a link to a web page with a list of things people MUST take with them:
  553. <ASCIIGirl> then..any suggestions about website are welcomed..private msg to me..cause Im working during the time everybody sleeps :)
  554. <stockholm> martinl_: it might be easiest if one of you get a admin account for the website
  555. <nchip> website needs a rehaul of the instructions how to get everywhere
  556. <mooch> gel, kitchenware (if they want to cook) and the like
  557. <nchip> now that the new bust terminal is open, it can actually be done
  558. <mooch> electricity bars, and so on
  559. <stockholm> mooch: yes, right
  560. <ASCIIGirl> perfect, nchip can you help me with that?
  561. <mooch> and deodorant
  562. <stockholm> mooch: or you?
  563. <mooch> smokki can get quite hot...
  564. <stockholm> preferably shower gel
  565. <mooch> and deodorant... ;)
  566. <mooch> ASCIIGirl: i can help...
  567. <nchip> ASCIIGirl: probably yes. Liw had a plan to take photos all the way, but I don't know if that is still valid
  568. <ASCIIGirl> ok.. mooch and nchip plz help me on this....pictures would be perfect
  569. <mooch> alright
  570. <stockholm> yeah.
  571. <mooch> braindmg will also help
  572. <mooch> right, braindmg?
  573. <stockholm> anything else?
  574. <braindmg> mooch: yes, whatever it was requested =)
  575. <ASCIIGirl> no...thats all I had to say
  576. <fabbe> stockholm: about the website or in general?
  577. <stockholm> braindmg: :>
  578. <stockholm> fabbe: website for now.
  579. * braindmg reads backlog now ... O:)
  580. * martinl_ is off
  581. <stockholm> done?
  582. <mooch> anything else?
  583. <stockholm> then does anyone have other items?
  584. --- Signoff: martinl_ ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.5/20041217]")
  585. --- stockholm has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "other stuff, misc"
  586. <mooch> i think the food thing needs a major rework...
  587. <fabbe> I have four items, slightly related.
  588. <stockholm> fabbe: you first, mooch sounds bgger
  589. * hrobak_ just made #debconf-video
  590. <stockholm> fabbe: ?
  591. * h01ger joins #debconf-video
  592. <fabbe> First: a lot of people have been getting hardware from sponsors and other channels. is there any information whatsoever on the responsibilities for these? are they insured? is there any list of what we have?
  593. <stockholm> right, i need to ask intel for that info
  594. <mooch> fabbe: you talk about hardware people like me are getting (7 sparcsfrom nokia) or what?
  595. <fabbe> mooch: for example -- anything that is used in debconf but not for personal purposes
  596. <stockholm> mooch: yes, and me, getting notebooks from intel and servers
  597. <stockholm> and the servers from HP
  598. <fabbe> mooch: and you mentioned the gigE-switch from Nokia
  599. <stockholm> yes
  600. <mooch> fabbe: in the case of some of the machines, we are putting them in the akuarium (the small room in smokki) or in the dorm, so they will be closed under lock
  601. <stockholm> mooch: this is about insurance for the machine
  602. <stockholm> mooch: this is about insurance for the machines
  603. <fabbe> mooch: ok, that's good, but we need to know what the policy is to find out the insurance needs
  604. <mooch> (which reminds me we need a way to comunicate for free, so walky talkies might come handy...)
  605. <mooch> fabbe: right
  606. <fabbe> basically, we need to know what hardware there is, exactly, who it is from and if it's insured in any way, and what the policy of the sponsor is in case of damage or theft
  607. <stockholm> mooch: walkie talkies are in the works
  608. * nchip needs to get asleep soon
  609. <stockholm> fabbe: more?
  610. <fabbe> stockholm: the total value so we have the right insurance amount
  611. <stockholm> ouch. that can be a lot.
  612. <anibal> fabbe, will that include personal notebooks?
  613. <stockholm> fabbe: more items?
  614. <stockholm> not personal ones
  615. <stockholm> anibal: we cant insure those
  616. <fabbe> stockholm: we don't have to insure for the total value, but if eg. a building burns down with all the laptops in it, we want to be prepared somehow
  617. <fabbe> anibal: your traveler's insurance will cover that
  618. <fabbe> anibal: and for locals their personal or home insurance will
  619. <fabbe> ok, that was the first item
  620. <stockholm> fabbe: can you write to the list with a list of things to find out?
  621. <anibal> stockh0lm, maybe you need to tell people to get their own traveler insurance
  622. <fabbe> stockholm: -event or -team?
  623. <mooch> anibal: we should not have to tell people about that...
  624. <stockholm> agree
  625. <mooch> they should know: if you travel, you need a travel insurance
  626. <stockholm> fabbe: -team
  627. <mooch> but we can send a reminder
  628. <fabbe> stockholm: ok
  629. <mooch> anibal: you can send an email telling people about that ;)
  630. <stockholm> anibal: you could send a reminder
  631. <stockholm> *nod*
  632. <stockholm> fabbe: next of the 4?
  633. <fabbe> My second item: recording who gets hardware. how do we know who got which laptop etc. how will they be handed out?
  634. <mooch> fabbe: the same way with the keys...
  635. <h01ger> mooch, that is ? comas ?
  636. <stockholm> any good ideas?
  637. <mooch> we collect a fee for the keys, so that we know for sure the keys will come back
  638. <stockholm> a fast easy way to take note?
  639. <mooch> and the one who pays is responsible for that specific key of the specific room
  640. <fabbe> ok, so there is a central location that hands out hardware, and you sign it out and sign it in again when you return it?
  641. <stockholm> we would need good easy procedures for that.
  642. <teroajk> fabbe: I think we should have a list of all sponsored hardware where their current location is tracked.
  643. <mooch> fabbe: i belive that shoul ddo
  644. <mooch> stockholm: in reception we coud have that
  645. <stockholm> and a description for the people manning the information
  646. <stockholm> yes
  647. <mooch> we can organize a good reception protocol for those things
  648. <stockholm> mooch: who writes it?
  649. <h01ger> why dont we put it in comas ?
  650. <mooch> the person who hands it out?
  651. <stockholm> h01ger: yes, that could be done
  652. <mooch> in comas or in a local database synced somewhere else in a server
  653. <fabbe> ids will need to be checked at the reception for checkout, also the people who check things out need to be aware of the circumstances in which the insurance will cover
  654. <stockholm> fabbe: can you think about good procedures for this?
  655. <fabbe> stockh0lm: i can send a proposal to -team
  656. <stockholm> fabbe: thanks
  657. <mooch> sendit and we can work on it
  658. <stockholm> fabbe: third item?
  659. <mooch> brb
  660. * h01ger also got a small item
  661. <fabbe> Third and fourth both related to the reception also: compiling an information package to be handed out (including the maps) when people come, and most importantly *check-out* procedures
  662. <fabbe> as some of you know, the deadline for getting people out of the facilities is very important to keep
  663. <stockholm> fabbe: i started thinking about the informatoin package
  664. <toresbe> hmm
  665. <toresbe> I have quite a bit of WLAN hardware I can volunteer, if that is needed
  666. <stockholm> yes. we need to get 200 people out of the house in 5 hours
  667. * hrobak_ proposes debconf-video IRC meeting Thursday at 19 UTC.
  668. <fabbe> stockholm: ok, the things I would like to include are some basic legal facts about the conference, such as what you should do if something breaks or gets stolen or such
  669. <stockholm> fabbe: good, can you write that down, we can include it.
  670. <fabbe> stockholm: i will write it down
  671. <stockholm> fabbe: thanks
  672. <anibal> one more misc item: please send your gpg key for the keysigning party
  673. <stockholm> fabbe: done?
  674. <mooch> can i say one more thing about the food?
  675. <teroajk> fabbe: Watch out for your workload while you're taking all these tasks ;)
  676. <stockholm> mooch: you wanted to reorganize something?
  677. <toresbe> I won't have my passport
  678. <fabbe> stockholm: small detail for the checkout, I think we should tell people from the start that they need to check out at the reception at 9 or something
  679. <mooch> we need to contact TAFFA to check how flexible they can get, and i (insist i) think we have to put a limit to the food, and those who are not in, are out
  680. <stockholm> mooch: we discussedn food
  681. <toresbe> is a generic picture ID OK?
  682. <stockholm> mooch: that is a problem
  683. <fabbe> teroajk: don't worry, this is already done to a large part
  684. <stockholm> mooch: did you read my mail?
  685. <mooch> i did
  686. <stockholm> ok
  687. <fabbe> Well that's mostly it for me
  688. <stockholm> mooch: today i mailed intel and asked if they could cover for the latecomers untill now, too
  689. <stockholm> but we need to get a grip on this now
  690. <anibal> toresbe, a goverment issued ID will be okay, like a driver's license
  691. <mooch> right, the latecomers might get food, but the flexibility with which TAFFA can handle food might not be too wide
  692. <stockholm> we have a db snapshot now and can at least tell who was not in untill today
  693. <stockholm> mooch: yes, i hope nchip can find out how flexible they are
  694. <mooch> stockholm: we dont have daily tickers
  695. <hrobak_> anibal: toresbe is too young to drive.
  696. <stockholm> mooch: daily tickers?
  697. <mooch> tickets
  698. * h01ger has added "take the comas db off the net on the 18th" (which could also mean clear from private data like phone numbers etc.) to http://wiki.debian.net/?DebConf5Schedule - the ccc has had bad experiences with a conference db which was left on the net and broken into years after the event ;)
  699. <mooch> they have no day specified... so a ticket not used today can be used tomorrow
  700. <stockholm> mooch: the kitchen will need to know when how many people come
  701. <stockholm> they would be mad if not
  702. <mooch> not so much during the week days at lunch
  703. <toresbe> I have a postal ID
  704. <mooch> there are people in otaniemi going there to have lunch
  705. <stockholm> ok, that leaves breakfast and dinner
  706. <mooch> anibal: people will need a valid ID to get into finland, wherever they come from, except finland
  707. <stockholm> enough? (c:
  708. <stockholm> mooch: they will be happy to have good numbers from us
  709. <mooch> andthe breakfast will be more or less restricted buffet, IIUR
  710. <mooch> find
  711. <mooch> even fine
  712. <mooch> etch is officially out
  713. <anibal> toresbe, people will decide to sign your key depending on the ID you show them
  714. <mooch> even sarge
  715. <mooch> happy sarge!
  716. <stockholm> can we conclude the meeting now?
  717. <stockholm> i think it is de-facto over
  718. <teroajk> stockholm: When is the next meeting planned?
  719. <stockholm> teroajk: 14 days from now
  720. <mooch> 14?
  721. <mooch> ok
  722. <stockholm> two weeks
  723. <stockholm> yes
  724. --- h01ger has changed the topic on channel #debconf-team to "yeaaaaaaaaaaaaah sarge is released ;-)"
  725. <toresbe> old news ;)
  726. <teroajk> Ok
  727. <anibal> stockh0lm, toresbe said he has WLAN hardware
  728. * h01ger looks up the even older topic... ;)
  729. <stockholm> anibal: why do we need it?
  730. <toresbe> stockholm: for WLAN! ;)