--- Log opened Sat Mar 10 03:28:40 2007 03:28 -!- Sledge [steve@lump.einval.com] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 03:28 -!- Irssi: #debian-dpl-debate: Total of 15 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 14 normal] 03:28 -!- Irssi: Join to #debian-dpl-debate was synced in 0 secs 08:50 -!- buxy [~raphael@arrakeen.ouaza.com] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 08:53 < b|> Begin Reponse: steve test URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5608 08:53 < c|> Ready to go for the debate. 08:53 < d|> End Reponse: steve test URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5608 08:53 < e|> EOT: ================================================== 09:02 < Ganneff> bots bots bots! 09:03 <@dondelelcaro> lots of bots 09:11 -!- sprink [~sprink@56-136.186-72.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 09:29 < buxy> dondelelcaro: pbotutil seems to work for me too, I posted 5612 09:36 < f|> Begin Reponse: Raphael test URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5612 09:36 < b|> Hello I want to say that you should really consider doing more of that 09:36 < c|> kinf of stuff. it's really what debian needs. 09:36 < d|> . 09:36 < e|> Please don't be shy and get involved! 09:36 < f|> End Reponse: Raphael test URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5612 09:36 < b|> EOT: ================================================== 09:36 -!- ore [~romain@yeast.orebokech.com] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 09:57 -!- ahoenen [~user@xdsl-87-78-111-79.netcologne.de] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 09:58 -!- ahoenen [~user@xdsl-87-78-111-79.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.1.4 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:27 -!- sbr [~sbr@81.56.171.199] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 10:28 -!- sbr [~sbr@81.56.171.199] has left #debian-dpl-debate [] 10:47 -!- spinclad [~rhale@209-6-140-232.c3-0.bkl-ubr2.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 10:56 -!- trigger [trigger@static.88-198-131-59.clients.your-server.de] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 11:12 -!- jcristau [~jcristau@hydrogene.pps.jussieu.fr] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 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#debian-dpl-debate 16:53 -!- matijs [~matijs@mvz.xs4all.nl] has left #debian-dpl-debate [] 17:06 -!- Leibsle [~dieter@HSI-KBW-085-216-039-002.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 17:06 < Leibsle> hello 17:10 -!- luk_ [~luk@107.64-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 17:34 -!- sbr [~sbr@81.56.171.199] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 17:36 -!- gregoa [~gregoa@chello080109165251.tirol.surfer.at] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 17:38 -!- man-di [~man-di@dynadsl-080-228-201-156.ewetel.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 17:47 -!- siretart [siretart@213.239.237.3] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 17:58 -!- dam_ [~dam@87.120.174.33] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 18:11 -!- Womble2 [~womble@shadbolt.e.decadent.org.uk] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 18:23 -!- wolog [~wolog@brusc.guerrier.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:26 -!- aigarius [~aigarius@82.152.74.5] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 18:29 -!- wajig [~wajig@p57A96F97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 18:31 -!- wajig [~wajig@p57A96F97.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 18:42 -!- JoshTriplett [~josh@dsl093-040-092.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 18:42 -!- Clint [~Clint@thumb.scru.org] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 18:44 -!- beechen [~beechen@e178113239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 18:47 -!- an-t [~ant@spielplatz.hsg-kl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01 -!- svenl [~sven@zealot.plz.fr] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:01 -!- aurel32 [~aurel32@farad.aurel32.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:03 -!- kaeso [~luca@host42-90-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: E quindi uscimmo a riveder le stelle] 19:06 -!- wolog [~wolog@brusc.guerrier.com] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:08 -!- Yoe [~wouter@samba.grep.be] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:09 -!- mhy [~mark@titus.mhy.org.uk] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:10 -!- rjek [~rjek@spoo.flarn.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:12 -!- Adri2000 [~adri2000@f0017-1-88-165-188-51.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:15 -!- joschi [~joschi@195.49.2.8] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:20 -!- Nonomero [~Arnaud@ocean.aerine.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:40 -!- wajig [~wajig@p57A96F97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:47 -!- lool [lool@pig.zood.org] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:52 -!- fjp [~fjp@ip545593b6.speed.planet.nl] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:52 -!- eike [~Eike@p57A0F308.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:54 -!- eike [~Eike@p57A0F308.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55 -!- astronut [~astronut@sfnc-162-39-87-183.sandhills.us] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 19:57 < astronut> dondelelcaro: may i suggest making the canidates use their real names as nicks for the duration of the debate? 20:01 < stockholm> no, for ever! 20:01 < jcristau> where is AndreasSchuldei then? :) 20:03 < stockholm> jcristau: he got lucky that he did not run this year. it is a blast! 20:03 -!- Kebianizao [~KVIrc@102.pool85-53-151.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:03 * jvw recalls that "JeroenvanWolffelaar" was too long for irc... 20:04 < stockholm> jvw: what did you use then? 20:04 < rjek> Pah, time to legally change your name such that it fits into ancient protocols. 20:04 < jvw> rjek: actually my full name is Jeroen Josephus Adriaan van Wolffelaar, but well :) 20:04 < jvw> stockholm: don't recall 20:04 < jvw> probably JeroenvW or some such 20:05 < stockholm> my full name is Andreas Eugen Wilfried Schuldei. not quite as long, though... 20:06 -!- wajig [~wajig@p57A96F97.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:06 * rjek 's full name is only 28 characters or so. 20:06 -!- teledyn_ [~teledyn@adsl-75-32-149-194.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:07 -!- Mjollnir` [~penny@leibniz.catalyst.net.nz] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:07 -!- geser [~mb@leary.ping.de] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:08 < rjek> jvw: You can shrink your name by quite a few characters by adopting Anglicised spelling of them :) 20:08 < jvw> Jay Joe Adrian of Wolffelaar? 20:09 < rjek> Jay and Joe are both diminutives. 20:09 -!- mcg [~mcg@box.cheers.de] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:09 < rjek> Jerome Joseph Adrian. 20:09 < rjek> Is perhaps the closest? 20:09 < Womble2> Jay is short for Jerome? 20:09 < rjek> Womble2: Jay can be short for any name that starts with a J, I've found. 20:09 < jvw> Womble2: dunno, I was called "(Random) J (Jay)" by people who couldn't pronounce Jeroen, so... 20:10 < rjek> (I certainly know Johns who go by Jay, as well as Jacobs, etc) 20:10 < jvw> brittish people even 20:10 < Womble2> rjek: That makes some sort of sense 20:10 < Womble2> Hmm, John doesn't need abbreviation 20:10 < Womble2> but that reminds me of John Kennedy and his brother Jack Kennedy... 20:10 < rjek> Indeed. 20:10 < rjek> Messy. 20:10 < KiBi> Who will be Debian's JFK? 20:11 < Womble2> Let's not start that! 20:11 < rjek> Who wants to be shot? :) 20:11 * Clint looks forward to the channel going +m 20:12 < rjek> Well, you could always leave until it is. :) 20:14 -!- kolter [~kolter@kaoru.asyd.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:16 -!- LightKnight [~gabry@adsl-198-74.37-151.net24.it] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:16 -!- ag- [~ag@zealot.plz.fr] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:19 -!- jacques [~jacques@89.156.37.58] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:22 -!- sgran [steve@lobefin.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:24 -!- adn [~adn@wahe.diwi.org] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:29 -!- santiago [~santiago@200.118.169.24] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:30 -!- k4x [~k4x@lug-owl.de] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:30 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+m] by dondelelcaro 20:32 -!- Yoy [Manu@226.Red-88-21-86.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:32 -!- santiago [~santiago@200.118.169.24] has quit [Quit: Abandonando] 20:34 -!- schoinobates [~lmamane@2001:888:19f0:2:2e0:81ff:fe54:abf9] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:38 -!- azeem [~mbanck@p54B0CE91.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:40 -!- kaeso [~luca@host42-90-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:43 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v b|] by dondelelcaro 20:43 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v c|] by dondelelcaro 20:43 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v d|] by dondelelcaro 20:43 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v e|] by dondelelcaro 20:43 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v f|] by dondelelcaro 20:44 -!- e| [~e|@archimedes.ucr.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44 -!- debate_bot [~debater@archimedes.ucr.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44 -!- d| [~d|@archimedes.ucr.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44 -!- b| [~b|@archimedes.ucr.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44 -!- c| [~c|@archimedes.ucr.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44 -!- f| [~f|@archimedes.ucr.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44 -!- debate_bot [~debater@archimedes.ucr.edu] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:44 -!- f| [~f|@archimedes.ucr.edu] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:44 -!- b| [~b|@archimedes.ucr.edu] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:44 -!- d| [~d|@archimedes.ucr.edu] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:44 -!- c| [~c|@archimedes.ucr.edu] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:44 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+vvv c| b| d|] by dondelelcaro 20:45 -!- e| [~e|@archimedes.ucr.edu] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:45 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+vv e| f|] by dondelelcaro 20:45 <+b|> Begin Reponse: Wouter Test URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5623 20:45 <+c|> Dit is een test. 20:45 <+d|> This is a test. 20:45 <+e|> Yes, both phrases mean exactly the same thing. This is a longer test to 20:45 <+f|> see whether wordwrapping works out okay. 20:45 <+b|> End Reponse: Wouter Test URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5623 20:45 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 20:47 <+d|> Begin Reponse: Aigars Test URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5620 20:47 <+e|> Test answer. 20:47 <+f|> End Reponse: Aigars Test URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5620 20:47 <+b|> EOT: ================================================== 20:54 -!- Zomb [~be@p54ACA4F8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:55 -!- SamHocevar [~sam@dindon.zoy.org] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:56 -!- padski [~padski@ip-81-1-116-48.cust.homechoice.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:56 -!- ptitlouis [~ptitlouis@kaoru.asyd.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:57 <@dondelelcaro> nb, you may find /ignore #debian-dpl-debate JOIN PARTS QUITS to be useful 20:57 -!- jb [~julien@thumper.technologeek.org] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:57 -!- des [~des@190.7.29.10] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 20:57 -!- glandium [~mh@APuteaux-153-1-55-107.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:01 -!- svena [~sa@62.209.182.200] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:01 -!- herbert [~herbert@N754P030.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:02 -!- Yoe is now known as WouterVerhelst 21:03 -!- curt [~curt@adsl-70-228-83-174.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:04 -!- peterS [~m|ptrS|@adsl-71-158-217-148.dsl.wchtks.sbcglobal.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:06 -!- herbert [~herbert@N754P030.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #debian-dpl-debate [] 21:10 -!- wajig [~wajig@p57A96F97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:10 -!- carmie [~carmie@televikun.org] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:11 -!- cortana [~sam@62-31-146-25.cable.ubr12.azte.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:11 -!- davrieb [~davrieb@b-143.dsl.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:12 -!- broonie [broonie@cassiel.sirena.org.uk] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:12 -!- don_inlab [~don@rzlab.ucr.edu] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:12 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+o don_inlab] by ChanServ 21:15 -!- Chrysalid [~ident@a83-245-214-53.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:15 -!- dondelelcaro is now known as don_armstrong 21:16 -!- kevinoid [~kevin@cpe-24-92-253-74.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:16 -!- don_inlab is now known as dondelelcaro 21:17 -!- aigarius is now known as AigarsMahinovs 21:19 -!- slef [~mjr@g.towers.org.uk] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:20 -!- glowirf [~florent@107.191.98-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:20 -!- dwatson [~david@planetwatson.plus.com] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:20 -!- jatt [~user@pD9E9F9F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:21 -!- Kuantiko [~meltdown@cm89024.red.mundo-r.com] has joined #debian-dpl-debate 21:21 <@don_armstrong> there are just under 10 minutes until we begin 21:22 -!- You're now known as SteveMcIntyre 21:23 -!- aj is now known as AnthonyTowns 21:26 -!- buxy is now known as RaphaelHertzog 21:31 <@don_armstrong> we're just waiting on a few of the candidates now; we'll get going in a bit 21:34 -!- dam_ is now known as Damyan 21:36 <@don_armstrong> we're waiting right now on gustavo and simon; if you see them, please let one of us know 21:37 -!- Damyan is now known as dam_ 21:38 <@don_armstrong> We'll start the debate no later than 21:45 (6 minutes) regardless of who is here and who isn't 21:39 < SteveMcIntyre> fine 21:40 -!- stockholm is now known as VoteForMe 21:40 -!- VoteForMe is now known as stockholm 21:43 <@don_armstrong> Welcome to the 2007 Debian DPL Debate. My name, in case you've not yet figured it out, is Don Armstrong, and I'll be moderating the debates. 21:43 <@don_armstrong> This year I'll be assisted by MJ Ray (slef) and Neil McGovern (Maulkin) 21:44 <@don_armstrong> They will be following #debian-dpl-discuss and selecting questions from you to ask the candiates; if you have a question that you would like to ask, please bring it to their attention. 21:45 <@don_armstrong> This year's debate is again broken into three main sections. 21:45 <@don_armstrong> The first is a long response section, where the candiates are all asked a question and have 8 minutes to respond in a lengthy written response. 21:45 <@don_armstrong> (err, 6 minutes rather) 21:45 <@don_armstrong> The second is a short response, where the candidates will be asked a question, they'll each have 1.5 minutes or 5 lines to respond, whichever is shorter. 21:45 <@don_armstrong> The final section is a free for all, no-holds-barred cage match. 21:45 <@don_armstrong> The candiates this year are Wouter Verhelst, Aigars Mahinovs, Gustavo Franco, Sven Luther, Sam Hocevar, Steve McIntyre, Raphaël Hertzog, Anthony Towns, Simon Richter. 21:45 <@don_armstrong> They've already been asked the first question: 21:45 <@don_armstrong> 1. Please give us a brief introduction of yourself, and tell us why you are running for DPL this year. 21:51 <+c|> Begin Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5627 21:51 <+d|> I am 23 years old programmer from Latvia. I am a founder of Latvian Free Software Association and participated in the fight against software patents in EU. Currently I am finishing my Masters thesis in UK. 21:51 <+e|> I am running for DPL because I think that I have ideas and a vision that would allow Debian to remain at the forefront of the Free Software movement. 21:51 <+f|> End Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5627 21:51 <+b|> EOT: ================================================== 21:52 <+c|> Begin Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5628 21:52 <+e|> Hi, I'm a French hacker and scientist. I've been contributing to 21:52 <+f|> Debian for 8 years now. I'm running for DPL because I see 21:52 <+b|> problems (mostly communication) that I feel are important and are 21:52 <+c|> endangering Debian both as a community and as a product. I think 21:52 <+e|> I can solve efficiently and I'm not entirely satisfied with how 21:52 <+f|> they have been addressed or even acknowledged in the past. 21:52 <+b|> End Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5628 21:52 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 21:52 <+e|> Begin Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5629 21:52 <+f|> My name is Wouter Verhelst, and I've been a Debian Developer since 2001. 21:52 <+b|> At the time, I was still at school, and went to become a Debian 21:52 <+c|> Developer since I thought it'd be a nice introduction into this huge 21:52 <+e|> Open Source/Free Software scene, but didn't plan to stick around for 21:52 <+f|> long. It didn't take me long to figure out that Debian is one of the 21:52 <+b|> leading forces within the Free Software movement, and that not sticking 21:52 <+c|> around would be a grave mistake. 21:52 <+e|> . 21:52 <+f|> Running for DPL has been something I've been pondering about since about 21:52 <+b|> 2004, if I'm not mistaken. Personally, I think that the DPL is, or 21:52 <+c|> should be, someone who easily works with people, since his main job is 21:52 <+e|> coordination. I feel I have the required qualities to do that. 21:52 <+f|> . 21:52 <+b|> Additionally, I'm hoping to be able to slightly change Debian's culture 21:52 <+c|> for the better. This will require help from other developers, but I'm 21:52 <+e|> confident we can do it. 21:52 <+f|> End Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5629 21:52 <+b|> EOT: ================================================== 21:52 <+c|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5630 21:52 <+e|> I'm Steve McIntyre, a long-time Debian developer with lots of experience of development, packaging and trying to organise Free Software groups and gatherings. There's more about that in my platform. I'm 32, single, I live in Cambridge in the UK, and I work for a company manufacturing Linux-based 21:52 <+e|> ..IPTV set-top boxes. 21:53 <+f|> . 21:53 <+b|> I'm standing for DPL because I think I can do a good job of it, both representing Debian and working on the goals I have outlined. 21:53 <+c|> End Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5630 21:53 <+f|> EOT: ================================================== 21:53 <+b|> Begin Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5631 21:53 <+c|> I'm a DD since 1998 and accumulated lots of experience over the years. 21:53 <+f|> I have been progressively moving from simple packagers to active member of 21:53 <+b|> the QA team. It means that nowadays I work more on infrastructural issues 21:53 <+c|> than on my packages. I wrote the PTS and I am administering 21:53 <+f|> alioth.debian.org our Gforge installation. 21:53 <+b|> . 21:53 <+c|> I already candidated once for DPL in 2002 because I had many interesting 21:53 <+f|> projects. Since then I completed several of them and others have been 21:53 <+b|> implemented without my involvement. 21:53 <+c|> . 21:53 <+f|> I want to use this experience to enhance Debian because I encountered many 21:53 <+b|> problems. But I'm sure that I can't do it alone, I need many people to 21:53 <+c|> assist me. That's why I want to work within a DPL board. I like the work 21:53 <+f|> of others and I need their help to make Debian a better place to work. 21:53 <+b|> End Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5631 21:53 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 21:53 <+f|> Begin Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5632 21:53 <+b|> Hi, I'm Anthony Towns, aka aj. I'm running for re-election to continue 21:53 <+c|> the things I've worked on over the past year and to make sure we've got 21:53 <+f|> a transition process so that other people get help in the role rather 21:53 <+b|> than thrown in the deep end. Having seen just how much stuff you have to 21:53 <+c|> deal with as DPL that I didn't expect I haven't listed too many specifics 21:53 <+f|> this year, but I think the ones I have listed (maintainers, dak, ambassadors 21:53 <+b|> and assistant DPLs) will be a respectable step forward. 21:53 <+c|> End Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5632 21:53 <+f|> EOT: ================================================== 21:54 <@don_armstrong> The candidates have been asked the next question: 21:54 <@don_armstrong> A key theme in the past few months has been communication, from inter/intra-team communication, to user<->maintainer communication. What do you plan to do as DPL to address the issue of communication? 21:58 <+b|> Begin Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5633 21:58 <+c|> Working on improving communication isn't easy; it requires one to work 21:58 <+f|> on our culture, in addition to a few things that could be done on a 21:58 <+b|> technical level. 21:58 <+c|> . 21:58 <+f|> For the technical things, I'm thinking of ways to make work by core 21:58 <+b|> teams more transparent in as many ways as possible. The request tracker 21:58 <+c|> that's been suggested is one thing, but most of this transparency 21:58 <+f|> depends on the core teams themselves; I'll have to work with them to get 21:58 <+b|> that done. 21:58 <+c|> . 21:58 <+f|> Next, I'm hoping to help improve our discussion culture by suggesting a 21:58 <+b|> few rules that people can abide by (on a voluntary basis), and by 21:58 <+c|> actively participating in discussions where I feel problems exist. 21:58 <+f|> End Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5633 21:58 <+b|> EOT: ================================================== 21:59 <+c|> Begin Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5634 21:59 <+f|> Change the topics. There is and always be communication problems in an organisation as large as Debian has become. 21:59 <+b|> It is important to identify the clots as soon as possible and see them trough before the problems related to a communication clots intensify beyond all reasonable borders. 21:59 <+c|> However in general: stap back, cool down and try another way would be my advice. 21:59 <+f|> End Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5634 21:59 <+b|> EOT: ================================================== 21:59 <+c|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5635 21:59 <+f|> I'd like to encourage people to think more about how they say 21:59 <+b|> things on IRC and mailing lists (especially). A large part of 21:59 <+c|> the problem is people not considering the effects of what they 21:59 <+f|> say and how they say it. 21:59 <+b|> . 21:59 <+c|> Also, I will push for various of the core teams and people to 21:59 <+f|> post regular updates on status so that people can see what is 21:59 <+b|> going on. 21:59 <+c|> . 21:59 <+f|> The two are interlinked; we need to make our lists and channels 21:59 <+b|> healthier places for people to put those updates without fear 21:59 <+c|> of abuse. 21:59 <+f|> End Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5635 21:59 <+b|> EOT: ================================================== 21:59 <+c|> Begin Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5638 21:59 <+f|> It's hard to make people communicate if they don't want to, 21:59 <+b|> especially when they're "serving" you. But I find it an abuse 21:59 <+c|> of power when you have a key position and do not communicate, 21:59 <+f|> I therefore would like to make reporting mandatory at least 21:59 <+b|> for delegates or delegated teams. Failure to report would be 21:59 <+c|> considered a lack of time and I would therefore assign 21:59 <+f|> additional assistants to these teams. 21:59 <+b|> I also believe merging scattered services back into the Debian 21:59 <+c|> infrastructure may also improve passive communication by 21:59 <+f|> making it unnecessary to ask for the information. 21:59 <+b|> End Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5638 21:59 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 21:59 <+f|> Begin Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5637 21:59 <+b|> I don't think communication problems are something that the DPL can 21:59 <+c|> magically solve -- both Martin and Branden worked very hard at that 21:59 <+f|> without achieving a great result, and at least Bdale, Martin and Branden 21:59 <+b|> had difficulties meeting their own goals of communicating themselves as 21:59 <+c|> DPL. I specifically tried to set a low bar for my own reporting as DPL, 21:59 <+f|> but I think with Steve's help we've managed to set a reasonably good 21:59 <+b|> example of regular, interesting posts to d-d-a and elsewhere. As I noted 21:59 <+c|> in [0] (and since then), there's been significant progress in setting up 21:59 <+f|> an official DSA-supported rt instance to track non-package issues (such 21:59 <+b|> as admin and keyring requests) which has been one of the things that's 21:59 <+c|> been on the agenda, and I expect that will actually make a substantial 21:59 <+f|> improvement once it's operational. Beyond that, I've been trying to 21:59 <+b|> encourage other folks to report on what they've been doing to d-d-a when 21:59 <+c|> it makes sense, and I think that's worked well most of the time. 21:59 <+f|> . 21:59 <+b|> [0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/02/msg00204.html 21:59 <+c|> End Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5637 21:59 <+f|> EOT: ================================================== 21:59 <+b|> Begin Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5636 21:59 <+c|> I want to show the project how we can communicate and bring issues to 21:59 <+f|> a solution. I plan to do this within the DPL board. I selected it so that 21:59 <+b|> all members have very good communication skills. They're not used to 21:59 <+c|> resorting to flames. But they still represent the diversity of the 21:59 <+f|> project. 21:59 <+b|> . 21:59 <+c|> I also want to draft some guidelines describing what we expect from our 22:00 <+f|> core teams, in particular in terms of communication with the rest of the 22:00 <+b|> project. I have handled the role of Alioth administrator in an open manner 22:00 <+c|> and I have always welcomed help. There's no reason why we can't extent 22:00 <+f|> that to all our teams. But they will need our help, there's a reason why 22:00 <+b|> their badly communicating: we're simply too negative on most public 22:00 <+c|> communication that anyone can do. This needs to change. 22:00 <+f|> . 22:00 <+b|> Of course, I'll keep the project informed and involved in all those 22:00 <+c|> projects. 22:00 <+f|> End Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5636 22:00 <+b|> EOT: ================================================== 22:00 <@don_armstrong> The candidates have been asked the next question: 22:00 <@don_armstrong> We've gained somewhat of a reputation for longer than projected release times. What do you plan to do as DPL to help us meet these projections? 22:05 <+c|> Begin Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5639 22:05 <+f|> Plan not to release within this year. I feel that 1 release ever 2-3 years is appropriate for Debian. 22:05 <+b|> End Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5639 22:05 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 22:05 <+f|> Begin Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5640 22:05 <+b|> We've done much better in releasing on a shorter timeframe this time 22:05 <+c|> around (or, well, at least we will), which is a great thing. The reason 22:05 <+f|> this worked out this time around, I think, is because of the excellent 22:05 <+b|> way in which the release managers kept the Developer body up-to-date on 22:05 <+c|> the release progress during the whole release (as opposed to just the 22:05 <+f|> end of the release, when the freeze was near). 22:05 <+b|> . 22:05 <+c|> There are a few things that still could be fleshed out next time; for 22:05 <+f|> instance, I think it would be prudent to try to avoid "surprises", such 22:05 <+b|> as the issues with security buildd hosts we've had for the woody and the 22:05 <+c|> sarge release, and the problems with the kernel we're having now. 22:05 <+f|> Avoiding these will be a challenge, but I'm sure our release managers 22:05 <+b|> are up to it. 22:05 <+c|> . 22:05 <+f|> If required, I will help them wherever I can, but I don't think that'll 22:05 <+b|> be necessary. 22:05 <+c|> End Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5640 22:05 <+f|> EOT: ================================================== 22:05 <+b|> Begin Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5643 22:05 <+c|> I don't expect to do anything to improve release times other than 22:05 <+f|> supporting the release managers however I can. Over the past year, that's 22:05 <+b|> meant trying to give them more time to work on the release by letting 22:05 <+c|> them work on it full-time, increasing the frequency of the incoming and 22:05 <+f|> testing promotion scripts to twice a day, and being available to help 22:05 <+b|> with bug fixing and archive issues. I think it's better to listen to their 22:05 <+c|> suggestions for improving the release schedule/process and help them with 22:05 <+f|> that, as the people most familiar with the current problems we're facing. 22:05 <+b|> End Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5643 22:05 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 22:06 <+f|> Begin Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5642 22:06 <+b|> While we haven't met our target release date with etch, we really have an 22:06 <+c|> active and communicative release team. So, as DPL, I'm ready to discuss 22:06 <+f|> any issues they encountered and will do my best to avoid those pitfalls 22:06 <+b|> for lenny. 22:06 <+c|> . 22:06 <+f|> I have no big plans on how to handle the lenny release but I know other 22:06 <+b|> members of my board have a stronger interest (sam in particular). I'm sure 22:06 <+c|> we'll have some interesting discussions on this topic shortly after the 22:06 <+f|> release of etch. I'll watch those discussions and be involved as usual. 22:06 <+b|> But really, the decision is up to the release managers, but since they are 22:06 <+c|> listening to what we have to say, there's no problem with that. 22:06 <+f|> . 22:06 <+b|> The only help I'll bring for the next release maybe with attracting more 22:06 <+c|> contributors, some of them who will hopefully augment the numbers of 22:06 <+f|> NMUers for the release... 22:06 <+b|> End Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5642 22:06 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 22:06 <+f|> Begin Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5644 22:06 <+b|> This is probably not for the DPL to decide. I would personally 22:06 <+c|> love a yearly, fixed-date stable release, with a 6-month freeze 22:06 <+f|> period and an optional "desktop" release/add-on every six months. 22:06 <+b|> Workforce is a key issue, our package-to-developer ratio has not 22:06 <+c|> changed a lot since the beginning, and I believe augmenting our 22:06 <+f|> number of developers (as explained in my platform) would help 22:06 <+b|> meet this goal. This is ultimately for the Release Managers to 22:06 <+c|> decide and though I'd try as a DPL to weigh in the discussion 22:06 <+f|> towards having such a goal, it's not something I'd shove down 22:06 <+b|> their throat if they found it unrealistic. 22:06 <+c|> End Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5644 22:06 <+f|> EOT: ================================================== 22:06 <+b|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5645 22:06 <+c|> Release timing is a place where the DPL does not necessarily 22:06 <+f|> have a huge amount of influence. The main point here IMHO is 22:06 <+b|> to come up with a reasonable set of release goals and timings 22:06 <+c|> and get people to agree to them. The trick then is to actually 22:06 <+f|> get people to work towards those goals; that's admittedly 22:06 <+b|> easier said than done. Consensus is good here. 22:06 <+c|> . 22:06 <+f|> Also, tracking the release work for the 22:06 <+b|> entire period rather than just towards the end - that has been 22:06 <+c|> a major improvement in the Etch release cycle compared with 22:06 <+f|> Sarge, and something I applaud in the release team. That doesn't 22:06 <+b|> need much from the DPL... 22:06 <+c|> End Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5645 22:06 <+f|> EOT: ================================================== 22:07 -!- david is now known as Guest757 22:08 <@don_armstrong> next question: Did you enter debian through the NM process? Is it relevant? What do you think of it and how would you change it? 22:12 <+b|> Begin Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5647 22:12 <+c|> Yes, I entered into Debian via the NM process in September of 2000. The whole thing took around a month because I was replying t the requests very quickly. But the DAM approval took extra 2 weeks. 22:12 <+f|> NM is relevant and I think it is more or less appropriate, but delays over one year by a DAM however are not. 22:12 <+b|> End Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5647 22:12 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 22:12 <+f|> Begin Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5648 22:12 <+b|> Yes, I went through the NM process, although the time required to get 22:12 <+c|> through it was at a record low at that time (I signed up in November 22:12 <+f|> 2000, and got my account in February 2001). 22:12 <+b|> . 22:12 <+c|> I think I'm a living proof of why the NM process is necessary. In 22:12 <+f|> hindsight, I don't believe I was fully ready to become a DD when I did; 22:12 <+b|> to get good results, I probably should've waited a bit longer. As it 22:12 <+c|> happened, it was all okay in the end, but there was no guarantee that 22:12 <+f|> this would happen. 22:12 <+b|> . 22:12 <+c|> Getting NM "quicker" or "faster" or whathaveyou at the cost of its 22:12 <+f|> quality is not an idea that I endorse. And getting through NM isn't 22:12 <+b|> impossible these days, either; I have been an AM since about a year now, 22:12 <+c|> and am proud to report that my first NM (Lucas Nussbaum) has become a DD 22:12 <+f|> since a few weeks. 22:12 <+b|> . 22:12 <+c|> If people can think of ways to improve it, however, and it is generally 22:12 <+f|> agreed upon that this is indeed an improvement, then I do not see why we 22:12 <+b|> should not implement those improvements; but I don't see possible areas 22:12 <+c|> of improvements myself. 22:12 <+f|> End Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5648 22:12 <+b|> EOT: ================================================== 22:12 <+c|> Begin Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5649 22:12 <+f|> I entered Debian through the NM process, but it went really 22:12 <+b|> fast, because (I think) I had already been asked to become 22:12 <+c|> a DD earlier, and my employer was a Debian old-timer. 22:12 <+f|> The NM process is a very good test for technical excellence, 22:12 <+b|> but I don't believe one should need *packaging* excellence 22:12 <+c|> in order to become a developer: though this would be 22:12 <+f|> required to get upload access, I'd prefer that NMs who 22:12 <+b|> work in packaging teams would get developer status earlier 22:12 <+c|> on, and get upload rights when they complete the skills 22:12 <+f|> tests. Debian is not just about packaging. 22:12 <+b|> End Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5649 22:12 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 22:13 <+f|> Begin Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5650 22:13 <+b|> No, I've not done the NM process in its current form. Joey or Elmo called 22:13 <+c|> at home, my mum responded and told me: "it must be for you, it's in 22:13 <+f|> english" (I'm French). Then we chatted two minutes about my package (the 22:13 <+b|> sympa mailing list manager) and I was approved shortly thereafter. 22:13 <+c|> . 22:13 <+f|> The current NM process is certainly far from perfect but it does its job. 22:13 <+b|> It's constantly evolving, the AM have some liberty in how they conduct 22:13 <+c|> the process, they must just be sure to prove that the candidate has 22:13 <+f|> the required skills. And looking at those that have been approved, it's 22:13 <+b|> the case! 22:13 <+c|> . 22:13 <+f|> However we're certainly scaring some contributors away and that's sad. We 22:13 <+b|> need to have the require infrastructure to let each contributor contribute 22:13 <+c|> to its own level. We need to create and recognize intermediary level of 22:13 <+f|> involvement. That's why I like the idea to have packagers who are not DD 22:13 <+b|> but who can still upload their own packages (once we checked that they are 22:13 <+c|> able to maintain them correctly). There are things like that in 22:13 <+f|> preparation. I like the debian-community.org initiative that Holger is 22:13 <+b|> preparing, etc. 22:13 <+c|> End Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5650 22:13 <+f|> EOT: ================================================== 22:13 <+b|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5651 22:13 <+c|> As mentioned in my platform, I entered Debian before there was 22:13 <+f|> any kind of NM process. Since then, the NM process has grown 22:13 <+b|> and become significantly more complex. The question's not as 22:13 <+c|> clear as it could be here, so I'll answer both versions as I 22:13 <+f|> see them. I don't think it's relevant that I didn't go through 22:13 <+b|> NM, as I know lots of people that have gone through it and I've 22:13 <+c|> helped several with mentoring etc. The NM process is very 22:13 <+f|> relevant itself - it helps us to decide who we will allow to 22:13 <+b|> upload to our archive and provide Debian packages directly to 22:13 <+c|> our users without direct oversight. 22:13 <+f|> . 22:13 <+b|> I'd like to push for a more social setup to the NM process. 22:13 <+c|> At the moment, we have a large number of technical questions 22:13 <+f|> that are asked, but we don't have much in terms of seeing how 22:13 <+b|> well candidates will fit in with the rest of us. I see that as 22:13 <+c|> a problem. 22:13 <+f|> End Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5651 22:13 <+b|> EOT: ================================================== 22:13 <+c|> Begin Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5652 22:13 <+f|> I joined Debian by sending a mail to new-maintainer saying I'd been using 22:13 <+b|> Linux for a couple of years and I was interested in maintaining a package, 22:13 <+c|> got my key signed by a DD who occassionally showed up to my LUG, and got 22:13 <+f|> a phone call from Joey Schulze one Saturday morning. It took a couple 22:13 <+b|> of weeks all up, and I didn't really do anything to "prove myself" until 22:13 <+c|> after I was a DD; which included helping fix RC bugs, trying to provide 22:13 <+f|> useful input to debates on the lists and IRC, and maintaining my packages. 22:13 <+b|> . 22:13 <+c|> There's a lot more interest in Debian now than there was then, so 22:13 <+f|> self-selecting alone probably isn't enough; and beyond that the more 22:13 <+b|> structured training process we have now is useful in and of itself. I do 22:13 <+c|> think there's a lot to be said for giving people more permissions more 22:13 <+f|> easily, though, and I'm currently working on an implementation of the 22:13 <+b|> "maintainers" concept I wrote about last year [0] using Joey Hess's 22:13 <+c|> "jetring" project. 22:13 <+f|> . 22:13 <+b|> [0] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/blog/2006/04/12 22:13 <+c|> End Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5652 22:13 <+f|> EOT: ================================================== 22:14 <@don_armstrong> next question: What is the biggest problem that Debian is facing currently? (Don't restrict yourself to problems that the DPL can solve.) Now that you idenfied it, what can be done to solve it? 22:19 <+b|> Begin Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5653 22:19 <+c|> I believe the biggest problems we're facing currently are situated in 22:19 <+d|> communication. We don't always communicate very well, which leads to 22:19 <+e|> misunderstandings--or in the worst case, personal vendettas. I've 22:19 <+f|> already explained how I'll work on that in a previous question. 22:19 <+b|> End Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5653 22:19 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 22:19 <+d|> Begin Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5654 22:19 <+e|> I think Debian's biggest problem for a while now has been finding some 22:19 <+f|> way to take all the people who want to contribute to Debian -- particular 22:19 <+b|> new contributors, but DDs too -- and giving them the encouragement, 22:19 <+c|> support and authority they need to contribute as best they can. The more 22:19 <+d|> ways we can find to help with that, particularly if we can avoid trading 22:19 <+e|> off supporting some contributors against others, the better off we'll be. 22:19 <+f|> End Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5654 22:19 <+b|> EOT: ================================================== 22:19 <+c|> Begin Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5655 22:19 <+d|> The biggest problem IMHO is that Debian is loosing the WOW! factor both for users and the developers. 22:19 <+e|> The few ideas in my platform are there to bring back the wow factor for the developers. Smaller specialised teams should be working to bring the wow to specific groups of our users, like Ubuntu does it to _our_ desktop users. ;) 22:19 <+f|> But seriously, it is hard for one man to come up with something that will wow the rest of the world, it need to be a team effort. 22:19 <+b|> End Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5655 22:19 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 22:19 <+d|> Begin Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5656 22:19 <+e|> Debian has become a bunch of old farts who no longer 22:19 <+f|> find it fun to work on Debian. Not true of everyone, 22:19 <+b|> of course, but that's my general idea. 22:19 <+c|> We have grown big but bored, we need to attract more 22:19 <+d|> users, more developers (in the general meaning of 22:19 <+e|> developer I have been using; this includes graphists, 22:19 <+f|> translators, usability people) and instead of insisting 22:19 <+b|> that newcomers suffer as much as we did, make it easier 22:19 <+c|> for them to contribute. And we need to stop frustrating 22:19 <+d|> people who're already here but are prevented to work 22:19 <+e|> on what they love to do: another thing we need to ban 22:19 <+f|> is the "better no solution than an imperfect solution" 22:19 <+b|> spirit. 22:19 <+c|> End Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5656 22:19 <+d|> EOT: ================================================== 22:19 <+e|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5657 22:19 <+f|> The biggest problem that I think we have is social interaction. 22:19 <+b|> We have problems with flamewars on the lists, various teams and 22:19 <+c|> people not communicating any more about what they're doing, and 22:19 <+d|> others seemingly spending more time flaming and mocking other 22:19 <+e|> people's contributions than actually working on Debian. 22:19 <+f|> . 22:19 <+b|> In terms of how to fix that, I think we need to be clear on what 22:19 <+c|> we're trying to achieve. Those people who don't work with us on 22:19 <+d|> making Debian the best distro possible and would rather waste 22:19 <+e|> everybody's time in flaming and insults should be given a clear 22:19 <+f|> message that that behaviour is not acceptable. We can work on 22:19 <+b|> that together; the DPL's job here is to push it hard. 22:19 <+c|> End Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5657 22:19 <+d|> EOT: ================================================== 22:19 <+e|> Begin Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5658 22:19 <+f|> That's a difficult question. We always remember the problems that we 22:19 <+b|> faced, and in my case, that would be the difficulty to cooperate with 22:20 <+c|> DSA. However that's certainly not our biggest problem. 22:20 <+d|> . 22:20 <+e|> I think Debian lacks a proper identity. We have strong roots with the 22:20 <+f|> social contract and the DFSG, but it's been a long time since Debian 22:20 <+b|> positionned itself clearly within the free software movement. Over the 22:20 <+c|> last years, we only took once a clear decision and that was concerning 22:20 <+d|> the GFDL problem. 22:20 <+e|> . 22:20 <+f|> I think we need to have some more discussions and make public statements 22:20 <+b|> about where we stand and what we care about. I'll probably push forward 22:20 <+c|> some position statements for the project, but I'll try to use the DPL 22:20 <+d|> board for those instead of relying on GR which have proved to be painful. 22:20 <+e|> That's part of the principle of the discussion by proxy that I want to try 22:20 <+f|> out. What about an offcial document explaining ho we stand compared to the 22:20 <+b|> FSF, to Ubuntu? 22:20 <+c|> End Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5658 22:20 <+d|> EOT: ================================================== 22:21 <@don_armstrong> next question: Is a code of conduct (ala Ubuntu) needed? If not, why not? If yes, why and what should it contain? 22:23 -!- GyrosGeier is now known as SimonRichter 22:26 <+e|> Begin Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5659 22:26 <+f|> I tried working on a code of conduct by creating the #debian-tech 22:26 <+b|> channel back in 2005, with Steve Langasek, Steve McIntyre and a few 22:26 <+c|> others. That worked okay for a while, particularly for a couple of 22:26 <+d|> scheduled discussions, but hasn't kept alive with active discussion apart 22:26 <+e|> from that. I think there are other things to be tried in this area, 22:26 <+f|> but I'll leave it for other people to try them at this point. 22:26 <+b|> End Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5659 22:26 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 22:26 <+d|> Begin Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5660 22:26 <+e|> I'm in doubt about this. On the one hand, I'm convinced that the "code 22:26 <+f|> of conduct" which we have right now is a joke; it may have been useful 22:26 <+b|> at the time it was created, but it's horribly outdated today. 22:26 <+c|> . 22:26 <+d|> On the other hand, I feel, as I have before, that actively enforcing a 22:26 <+e|> set of social rules does not help anyone; you'll only be creating 22:26 <+f|> animosity against the rules and/or the people pointing them out when 22:26 <+b|> they are enforced. For a code of conduct to work, people have to /want/ 22:26 <+c|> to follow it. 22:26 <+d|> . 22:26 <+e|> Getting that to happen will require a lot of work; but I don't think 22:26 <+f|> it's impossible. 22:26 <+b|> End Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5660 22:26 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 22:26 <+d|> Begin Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5661 22:26 <+e|> A code of conduct should be there, but merely as a recommendation allowing eople to complain about things they do not like, even if those are not in violation of the CoC and at the same time allowing the DPL to allow some things to slide depending on the situation. 22:26 <+f|> In the end a human factor must be taken in account. By a human. 22:26 <+b|> The expulsion should however not be achievable via the CoC alone, the current expulsion procedure is much more appropriate. 22:26 <+c|> End Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5661 22:26 <+d|> EOT: ================================================== 22:26 <+e|> Begin Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5662 22:26 <+f|> I do not believe a code of conduct is needed. General 22:26 <+b|> guidelines for sure, but a code of conduct means rules, 22:27 <+c|> and rules mean borderline behaviour, deliberate 22:27 <+d|> trolling and rule twisting. 22:27 <+e|> If people quarrel on our mailing-lists, it's because 22:27 <+f|> they have a reason to. Let's address the reasons instead. 22:27 <+b|> End Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5662 22:27 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 22:27 <+d|> Begin Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5663 22:27 <+e|> We already have the Debian Community Guidelines written by Enrico! 22:27 <+f|> http://people.debian.org/~enrico/dcg/ 22:27 <+b|> It's a very interesting document that one should read. I would like 22:27 <+c|> to see it promoted during the NM process, and I would like that 22:27 <+d|> prospective DD try to abide to those basic rules. 22:27 <+e|> . 22:27 <+f|> It would be useful to have a shorter summary of the DCG to point people 22:27 <+b|> to. 22:27 <+c|> . 22:27 <+d|> We have a strong history of non-restrained discussions and it's difficult 22:27 <+e|> to change the habits of everybody. But I think that the project is slowly 22:27 <+f|> evolving. We already tend to block temporarily the inclusion of NM which 22:27 <+b|> are causing troubles. We start learning from the problems, let's continue 22:27 <+c|> on that way. 22:27 <+d|> End Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5663 22:27 <+e|> EOT: ================================================== 22:27 <+f|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5664 22:27 <+b|> I've suggested that a CoC would be useful in the past, and I 22:27 <+c|> still believe it would be. Simply getting everybody to agree to 22:27 <+d|> a reasonable base level of conduct would be a very good start 22:27 <+e|> on the road to cleaning up the atmosphere on our lists and IRC 22:27 <+f|> channels. 22:27 <+b|> End Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5664 22:27 <+c|> EOT: ================================================== 22:27 <@don_armstrong> Thank you everyone for your attention during the first part of the debate; we'll take a short 5 minute break and start with the second section 22:29 -!- mv is now known as hilfried_tlerfrief 22:29 -!- hilfried_tlerfrief is now known as hilfried_tlerfried 22:32 <@don_armstrong> for the second part of the debate, the candidates will respond themselves to questions that are asked 22:32 <@don_armstrong> they will ask to be recognized in an out of band channel, and I will say their name 22:32 <@don_armstrong> they will then have 1.5 minutes or 5 lines to respond, whichever is shorter. 22:32 <@don_armstrong> I'll then recognize the next candidate 22:33 <@don_armstrong> some questions will have the opportunity for rebuttals; the candidates will indicate to me that they wish to rebut, and I will allow them to on selected questions 22:33 <@don_armstrong> during this process, the candidates will be +v, however, they will refrain from responding unless they are recognized 22:35 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+vvvv SimonRichter SamHocevar SteveMcIntyre AnthonyTowns] by don_armstrong 22:35 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+vvv WouterVerhelst RaphaelHertzog AigarsMahinovs] by don_armstrong 22:35 <@don_armstrong> Here we go with the first question; (candidates, if I forgot to voice one of you, let me know) 22:36 <@don_armstrong> How do you plan to document your activities as DPL for your fellow developers and the community at large? 22:36 <@don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns 22:37 <+AnthonyTowns> I plan on doing irregular reports to d-d-a as has happened in the past. I think that works fairly well as long as you keep doing new things to write about, or can find other people to encourage to write about the things they're doing. 22:38 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre 22:38 <+SteveMcIntyre> I plan to make regular-ish posts to d-d-a to summarise things that have been going on in Debian, and things that the DPL has been doing - much like (most of) this last year. 22:39 <+SteveMcIntyre> I also expect to blog about things more often, especially the smaller things that don't necessarily deserve the full hit of an announce posting 22:39 <@don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs 22:39 <+AigarsMahinovs> For the short term information I think a published iCal file with everything that is being done or being planned, would be a good thing to try. Blogging about anything, including half-baked ideas, projects and concepts for the mid-term information. And regular status reports on d-d-a once every two month even if nothing significant has been done. 22:40 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst 22:41 <+WouterVerhelst> I can only ack what the other candidates have said: I plan to post regularly to d-d-a; I will also, most likely, add a section to my blog for dpl-specific bits that don't warrant a full d-d-a post, but will have to see how that works out 22:42 <@don_armstrong> SamHocevar 22:42 <+SamHocevar> Every DD, not just the DPL, already has the proper tools to communicate about his/her activities: planet.debian.org for small everyday reports, debian-devel or debian-project for projects and ideas that require discussion, debian-devel-announce for more synthesised activity reports. This is what I plan to use, I do not need additional tools and the fact that previous DPLs may have used them on an irregular basis does not render them ineffective. 22:42 <@don_armstrong> SimonRichter 22:42 <+SimonRichter> I think creating even more channels would be a bad thing, we already have too many. I think it would be d-d-a postings for larger and blog entries for smaller stuff for me as well. 22:43 <@don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog 22:43 <+RaphaelHertzog> The DPL board has a public list, so most of the work will be public from 22:43 <+RaphaelHertzog> the beginning. Of course, reports to d-d-a are required. I also like to 22:43 <+RaphaelHertzog> use the wiki for documenting the ideas/projects that I like (see wiki.debian.org/CRMI or wiki.debian.org/CollaborativeMaintenance). 22:44 <@don_armstrong> followup question: Many of you talked about posts to d-d-a. This has often been promised in the past, but these posts tend to die out as the term of the DPL continues. What stratagies do you have to make sure you actually make these posts? 22:44 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre 22:45 <+SteveMcIntyre> I started off reasonably well in the last year doing bits from the 2IC, but lost a little bit of focus towards the end of the year 22:45 <+SteveMcIntyre> It just needs a little more discipline, and I'm happy I can manage that 22:45 <+SteveMcIntyre> if needs be, cron/apt will help :-) 22:45 <@don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog 22:46 <+RaphaelHertzog> It's difficult to remember everything when you want to communicate on everything you do. 22:46 <+RaphaelHertzog> However there's a simple way to do this, any time that you have something interesting to say, put it up on a wiki page. 22:47 <@don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns 22:47 <+RaphaelHertzog> Once there's enough content to make an interesting post, send it. I setup such a page for the QA group already. 22:47 <+RaphaelHertzog> [EOF] 22:47 <+AnthonyTowns> I don't think we've done too badly at keeping reports going throughout the year -- there's been a lull in the last few months of the year as we've focussed more on the etch release, but that's about it. I think the main thing is to move your 22:47 <+AnthonyTowns> focus to new things once something stalls -- it's no fun writing reports like "I've been working on X, but gotten nowhere with it", and it's often much easier to get past roadblocks when you come back later anyway. 22:47 <+AnthonyTowns> [EOF] 22:47 <@don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs 22:48 <+AigarsMahinovs> A technical solution to a social problem - a cron job that *will* send the email every two months, 6 text files with a template saying that nothing has been done and I just need to remember to write something good into those files before they are sent. 22:48 <+AigarsMahinovs> A bit of random would help too, so that I would need to update the files as soon as possible fearing that the mail will go off today. 22:48 <+AigarsMahinovs> [END] 22:48 <@don_armstrong> SamHocevar 22:48 <+SamHocevar> If I fail to properly report, I shall offer full reimbursement for your annual Debian subscription and a right to spank me at the next DebConf. 22:48 <+SamHocevar> [END] 22:49 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst 22:49 <+WouterVerhelst> Keeping people up to date on stuff isn't something I have much issues with; I've been singlehandedly managing the Debian presence at FOSDEM for at least three years now, and that's always worked out. 22:49 <+WouterVerhelst> I'd like to add one word about RaphaelHertzog's suggestion about wiki stuff: I don't think that this can be compared to actually pushing information out through d-d-a; wiki's require people to poll them from time to time 22:50 <@don_armstrong> ok; moving on 22:51 <@don_armstrong> Do you believe Debian would benefit from having all packages in version control? If so, how do you think we could get to that point? 22:51 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst 22:52 <+WouterVerhelst> no. It would first spark a flame war about which version control system we're going to use, 22:52 <+WouterVerhelst> then would get people unhappy about the version control system we're actually using, so they'll flame about that, too 22:52 <+WouterVerhelst> I think our current ways work well, and we have snapshot.debian.net for history 22:52 <+WouterVerhelst> perhaps that could be .org'ed, but that's about it 22:53 <@don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs 22:53 <+AigarsMahinovs> Yes, we could do that in 3-4 years, if we design a version control system for our needs, like Linus did (or make the GIT people adapt theirs) 22:53 <+AigarsMahinovs> I would see branching as a major rethink of the maintaining concept. 22:54 <+AigarsMahinovs> [END] 22:54 <@don_armstrong> SamHocevar 22:54 <+SamHocevar> It would be great, yes, and unlike others so far I don't believe we'd need to decide to use a single version control system for everyone to be happy, we can pretty well work with all the diversity we have on Alioth. (we have been, so far) 22:54 <+SamHocevar> The first step is to have all packages team-maintained to force us using a VCS in the first place. 22:54 <+SamHocevar> [END] 22:54 <@don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog 22:55 <+RaphaelHertzog> We certainly do benefit from good tols to manage our packages and VCS are 22:55 <+RaphaelHertzog> among them. However each DD has its own VCS preference. But that's not a 22:55 <+RaphaelHertzog> real problem... we can support most of them. We're about to announce the support of mercurial on Alioth, so it completes the existing list: arch, bzr, cvs, svn, git 22:55 <+RaphaelHertzog> Now we needs tools to work in the same way with the various VCS... that's part of wiki.debian.org/CollaborativeMaintenance ;-) 22:55 <+RaphaelHertzog> [END] 22:56 <@don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns 22:56 <+AnthonyTowns> I think all our packages _are_ in version control simply by our versioning scheme and source packages. It's not very complicated and there's not a lot of metadata, but it does work. I think we can do that better by making past versions more 22:56 <+AnthonyTowns> readily/reliably available, and implementing the "Wig and Pen" changes to the dpkg source format to make the sources we distribute more compatible with the version control systems maintainers/upstream use. I think the main things we need for 22:56 <+AnthonyTowns> that is support in the archive for the multiple patch format, and support for the "Wig and Pen" format in the various cvs-buildpackage programs. 22:56 <+AnthonyTowns> [END] 22:56 <@don_armstrong> SimonRichter 22:56 <+SimonRichter> I agree with Wouter on the flamewar bit; also, it further heightens the learning curve for new maintainers for no real benefit 22:57 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre 22:57 <+SteveMcIntyre> yes, it will help on most fronts 22:58 <+SteveMcIntyre> to be honest, I think we're already working towards version control for a lot of our packages naturally and therefore I don't think we necessarily need to do anything specific to further it 22:58 <@don_armstrong> NB: For info on the wig and pen format: http://lwn.net/Articles/139811/ 22:59 <@don_armstrong> next question: Name your major weak point as a dpl 22:59 <@don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs 22:59 <+AigarsMahinovs> Crazy ideas and not much of a reputation as an actual programmer I would think. 23:00 <+AigarsMahinovs> [END] 23:00 <@don_armstrong> SamHocevar 23:00 <+SamHocevar> My French humour. But I'm working on that, I already know a few good Irish jokes. 23:00 <+SamHocevar> [END] 23:00 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst 23:01 <+WouterVerhelst> I'm terribly bad at figuring out my own weaknesses... but, well, I'm not too stubborn to ack them when pointed out. 23:01 <@don_armstrong> SimonRichter 23:01 <+SimonRichter> In trying to see "the big picture" I might miss details. 23:01 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre 23:02 <+SteveMcIntyre> I can be a little too serious sometimes, and when I'm stressed I don't take criticism well - I'm normally enough of a self-critic already... 23:02 <+SteveMcIntyre> [END] 23:03 <@don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns 23:03 <+AnthonyTowns> My biggest difficulties are that my manner can be somewhat abrasive, both accidently and sadly at times deliberately, and that I can forget things that have been brought up while I'm focussed on something else. 23:03 <+AnthonyTowns> [END] 23:04 <@don_armstrong> next question: What do you think of the idea to define a "core" distribution with several other package groups around that (X; Desktop common; KDE; Gnome; ...) in relation to allowing arches to not support certain groups and allowing update during the lifetime of a stable release? 23:04 <@don_armstrong> SimonRichter 23:04 <+SimonRichter> that's two questions 23:05 <+SimonRichter> the first is a technical one - if you can show that it works, it can be done 23:05 <+SimonRichter> (Ian Murdock was working on that BTW) 23:06 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre 23:06 <+SteveMcIntyre> I'm not sure on the exact details of how to do it, but I think there is some validity to the first part of this 23:07 <+SteveMcIntyre> for example, at the moment we're building numerical analysis packages on arm - that's ridiculous IMHO 23:07 <+SteveMcIntyre> looking into this would be useful 23:07 <+SteveMcIntyre> I'm not sure what the second half is asking - please expand 23:07 <+SteveMcIntyre> [END] 23:07 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst 23:07 <+WouterVerhelst> as an m68k porter, this question hits home. Strange as it might sound to some, I'm not terribly fond of the idea. First, it will complicate our dependencies rather than simplifying them (details by mail, if you want them). Second, compiling 10G worth of software actually is a pretty good way to figure out whether or not your toolchain sucks; and if you've built it, why not upload it anyway? And finally, I've always felt that the decision on 23:08 <+WouterVerhelst> ...what's "useful" should be left to our users, not to us. If someone really, really wants to run KDE on his 68030, who are we to tell them they can't? 23:09 <@don_armstrong> SamHocevar 23:09 <+SamHocevar> We already have that, more or less. It's called base/standard/etc. vs. optional/extra. 23:09 <+SamHocevar> Having more package groups may not be easy, and technology merges between KDE and GNOME (dbus, many freedesktop standards) render it even more difficult. Is GTK part of GNOME or should it be a separate group because of XFCE? 23:10 <+SamHocevar> As I said earlier, I'd be more in favour of releasing more often (a yearly release) with "desktop" upgrades inbetween that would not touch the core. The specifics would need to be discussed, but KDE or GNOME teams could work in experimental and only upload to unstable if their packages are fit for the inbetween release. 23:10 <+SamHocevar> [END] 23:10 <@don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns 23:10 <+AnthonyTowns> Architectures can already choose to support however much or little they want -- they all seem to choose to support as much as possible, and sometimes a little more. As far as release or security support goes, I'd rather see Debian support 23:10 <+AnthonyTowns> everything that gets packaged, if that's possible. 23:10 <+AnthonyTowns> [END] 23:10 <@don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs 23:10 <+AigarsMahinovs> Theoretically it could be done outside Debian stable update process if we would he the code to allow outside repositories to be added to the buildd queue. So, a group of DDs should be able to create a Debian-woody-Gnome-updates repository. But I would not agree to let some arch release without KDE for example. That would be a path to making such arch even more irrelevant. [END] 23:11 <+AigarsMahinovs> s/he the code/have the code/ 23:11 <@don_armstrong> moving right along to the next question 23:12 <@don_armstrong> actually, RaphaelHertzog 23:12 <+RaphaelHertzog> There's too much in this question. I really would like us to find a way to 23:12 <+RaphaelHertzog> provide some updates for kernels/Xorg once during the stable lifetime. 23:12 <+RaphaelHertzog> I'm not sure that it needs a split in the archive however. 23:13 <+RaphaelHertzog> It's a difficult topic, but we will probably discuss it when we'll discuss release management, because it could be a way to hit the release date... 23:13 <+RaphaelHertzog> [END] 23:13 <@don_armstrong> now really moving to the next question 23:13 <@don_armstrong> Name something, other than releases, that you think a specific other distribution does better than Debian. How could we fix that? 23:14 <@don_armstrong> (After this question, I'm going to ask a few directed questions; I'll give the candidates 2 minutes to respond so they can actually read the question) 23:14 <@don_armstrong> SamHocevar 23:15 <+SamHocevar> Ubuntu is far better than us at doing transitions. We could fix this by having "transition strike teams" who NMU all late packages faster than we currently do. 23:15 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst 23:15 <+SamHocevar> Gentoo is far better at including new ports (OS X, for instance). We could fix this by lowering the requirements for new ports, and only decide later if the arch can be released 23:15 <+SamHocevar> [END] 23:15 <+WouterVerhelst> Ubuntu is doing pretty well in getting mindshare currently, mainly because it's so slick and shiny (in some respects). I think we'll have caught up there by the time etch releases; I recently did an installation of an etch machine, which blew me away in terms of what's changed since sarge. 23:16 <+WouterVerhelst> But other than that, I have always felt that Debian is a great distribution, and the best in most ways. Otherwise, I wouldn't have stuck around :) 23:17 <@don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns 23:17 <+AnthonyTowns> Working Live CDs for Debian instead of having to used derived distros. I think we'll have this for etch, which just means we need to promote them, and keep them working. [END] 23:17 <@don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs 23:18 <+AigarsMahinovs> Ubuntu is nice at many things, I think we should assimilate them by making it possible to do what they are doing in a way that is inside Debian for some definitions of "inside". Gentoo has the nice ability of adjusting you systems vital parameters (mostly compilation settings) and feel great if it works. It should be possible to make a way to have local packages that are autocompilled forks of the main tree. 23:18 <+AigarsMahinovs> [END] 23:18 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre 23:19 <+SteveMcIntyre> Ubuntu have done a very good job of getting things like laptop support working 23:19 <+SteveMcIntyre> by pushing changes through at all levels that need them in a short-ish interval 23:20 <+SteveMcIntyre> working together more on that kind of goal should be possible, but we need to agree to do that 23:20 <+SteveMcIntyre> [END] 23:20 <@don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog 23:20 <+RaphaelHertzog> Everybody said the most obvious already. For my part, what I like in 23:20 <+RaphaelHertzog> Ubuntu is the process of selection of goals for the next release and how 23:20 <+RaphaelHertzog> they document their projects in the wiki. It really helps getting new 23:20 <+RaphaelHertzog> people involved and for everyone to see what they can expect from the next 23:20 <+RaphaelHertzog> release. 23:20 <+RaphaelHertzog> [END] 23:20 <@don_armstrong> we'll have a round of rebuttals, then I'll ask directed questions 23:20 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst 23:21 <+WouterVerhelst> Sam Hocevar mentioned something about Gentoo, that they do pretty well in ports. I don't think that's right; they do have support in their systems for many ports, 23:22 <+WouterVerhelst> but when I tried out a non-standard port once (i.e., not ppc or i386 or some such), I found that most packages couldn't be installed because they were 'masked' 23:22 <+WouterVerhelst> we're doing much better in that respect 23:22 <@don_armstrong> SamHocevar 23:23 <+SamHocevar> I mostly agree with Wouter. 23:23 <+SamHocevar> But that's a problem with Gentoo's QA; the fact that our QA is better should not hinder the fact that our ports do not get proper support early enough. 23:23 <+SamHocevar> [END] 23:23 <@don_armstrong> moving along to directed questions; the candidates will have two minutes to respond. 23:24 <@don_armstrong> Wouter: You mentioned meetings to help team building in your platform: Which teams do you think should meet first? How do you propose to organize the meetings? 23:25 <+WouterVerhelst> That will depend on the teams themselves. I'm not going to shove meetings down people's throats if they don't want them. I will only encourage people to hold them, and help them when they want to hold one. 23:25 <+WouterVerhelst> hence, I can't know which team will be the first to hold a meeting 23:25 <@don_armstrong> Aigars: You mentioned continuing education of developers in your platform: How do you propose to implement that? What have you done so far towards implementing it? 23:27 <+AigarsMahinovs> I have not done anything about it as I am not in position to do that. On the contrary, I myself feel that I would need to refresh on current best practises of Debian development. 23:28 <@don_armstrong> Sam: I noticed that you mentioned that you thought the BTS was ugly, but I don't see any bugs filed by you against either bugs.debian.org or debbugs. What have you done so far to communicate and/or fix some of the other problems that you've identified in Debian? 23:28 <+SamHocevar> I have grown pretty afraid of the "show the code or shut up" argument. 23:29 <+SamHocevar> I don't mean to say that my suggestions would be met with such responses, though, but I thought I'd rather start working on a PoC before complaining 23:29 <+SamHocevar> I have already started working on lintian.d.o improvements 23:30 <+SamHocevar> and will continue with the BTS once finished with lintian. 23:30 <+SamHocevar> [END] 23:30 <@don_armstrong> Steve: Communication was a common theme in your platform; over the past 12 months when you were 2IC, what were you able to do to help improve communication in Debian? 23:31 <+SteveMcIntyre> I tried to get involved in various teams, so I could help them talk with the rest of the project (not as much as I'd hoped, unfortunately) 23:31 <+SteveMcIntyre> I tried to point out some of the discussions etc going on in the 2IC posts 23:32 <+SteveMcIntyre> mediation work 23:32 <@don_armstrong> Anthony: What was your biggest triumph over the past 12 months? Your biggest mistake? 23:34 <+AnthonyTowns> the thing that pleased me the most was all the things getting freed -- the new GFDL drafts, the new creative commons drafts, and Sun's announcemnet of its intention to GPL Java (and the hints that the GPLv3 will be considered for OpenSolaris for that matter) 23:34 <@don_armstrong> Simon: Could you pick out one of the problems you identified in your platform and describe how you'd attempt to solve it? 23:35 <+AnthonyTowns> (gak, time's up already? i'll reply on list) 23:36 <+SimonRichter> there is only one problem 23:36 <+SimonRichter> subgroups are fighting each other 23:36 <+SimonRichter> any attempt at solving Debian's problems must remove the incentive to fight 23:36 <@don_armstrong> Raphael: What will differentiate your DPL Board from the previous attempts that we've had at them? 23:37 <+RaphaelHertzog> It will have the real DPL powers. 23:37 <+RaphaelHertzog> It won't be a simple board of DPL advisers. 23:38 <+RaphaelHertzog> They'll have to play an active role, making propositions, discussing them and deciding together. 23:39 <+RaphaelHertzog> They will have access to the information that the DPL has via the leader@d.o alias. 23:39 <@don_armstrong> ok; thanks everyone for your responses. We're going to take a 5 minute break here and start up with the cage match in 5. 23:42 <@don_armstrong> for this part the candidates are free to ask eachother questions, as am I; I'll attempt to relay questions asked in real time from the audience to the candidates as well as asking some of the followup questions that didn't get a chance to be answered 23:45 <@don_armstrong> ok; here we go! 23:45 <@don_armstrong> Approximately how much of your time per week will you be able to spend on DPL related tasks? 23:45 <@don_armstrong> SimonRichter: you mentioned incentive to fight; how would you remove it? 23:45 <+RaphaelHertzog> It really depends on my workload, I can spend a whole week doing Debian only stuff (I did that during the python transition) 23:46 <+WouterVerhelst> That first question's been asked on -vote already, I believe 23:46 <+SimonRichter> about four to five hours, travelling time not counted as I generally travel by train which lets me work on other things 23:46 <+SteveMcIntyre> I expect to be able ot spend quite a lot of time on DPL work 23:46 <+SamHocevar> I think this was already asked on -vote; I'd say 3-4 hours a day, more in the weekends, and I can afford to work less if necessary 23:46 <+WouterVerhelst> I'm self-employed currently, which basically means I mostly get to choose my own time schedule :) 23:46 <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: it'll vary wildly, but generally be "as much as it takes". i'm hoping to have more time for other things this year, and i'm hoping more assistant dpls, along with actually knowing what being dpl is like, will help with that 23:46 <@don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns: what obsticals did you encounter trying to make things happen? 23:46 <@don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns: how could they have been overcome? 23:47 <+AnthonyTowns> SamHocevar: what do you believe needs to be done to have transition teams work? There are very few technical restrictions on uploading, and we've already had discussions about this sort of issue in the past. So what more needs to happen for us to have, eg, a team of people doing NMUs to fix kfreebsd build issues? (Cf http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/07/msg00240.html ) 23:47 <+SteveMcIntyre> I already spend a lot of time on Debian, and between squeezing that and optionally getting more time released from work I can do a day or two each week on average, obviously squashed together more as demands 23:47 <+WouterVerhelst> I usually spend quite a number of hours per day on Debian-related stuff 23:47 <+SimonRichter> the most important bit is not exactly a DPL task: reading email and having an overview of what is happening; I don't count that into the time required either) 23:47 <@don_armstrong> In what ways do you think Debian can use its resources more effective? 23:47 <+SimonRichter> (as already written on -discuss) to a certain extent, the lack of communication between teams makes goals of different teams appear conflicting; the prime example is the mail asking for newer GNOME to be pushed into etch. 23:47 <+SimonRichter> des, I think the important bit will be identifying these situations and getting a consensus on the best technical solution that is compatible with both team's goals 23:47 <+SteveMcIntyre> Debian's best resources are its people 23:47 <+SamHocevar> AnthonyTowns: we need consensus that these teams are legitimate; we currently rely on LowThresholdNMU to guess whether a maintainer is "NMU-friendly", and we shouldn't have to 23:48 <+WouterVerhelst> SteveMcIntyre: couldn't agree more 23:48 <@don_armstrong> Communications break down, and conflicts can arise. What do you plan to do as DPL to handle the (almost) inevitable conflicts? 23:48 <+SteveMcIntyre> we need to make it easier for people to work together to get things done, with less of the sniping that currently causes people to waste time, or at worst leave 23:48 <+SamHocevar> for instance the kfreebsd-i386 porters would gain legitimacy by having their port accepted in the archive, they have unanswered bugs that are hundreds of days old 23:48 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: how can we reduce the sniping? 23:48 <+AigarsMahinovs> SteveMcIntyre: now we only need to figure out 1) how can we get more people and 2) how to use them in the most effective fashion 23:49 <+SteveMcIntyre> we can reduce the sniping as part of a combined effort to raise the quality of our communications 23:49 <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: mostly arguments on the lists, and not being sure i had the moral authority to do things. one example where interminable debate was "overcome" was the sun-java-in-non-free issue, which, after help from Sun in clarifying their issues, it was passed on to SPI's lawyer for an opinion 23:49 <+RaphaelHertzog> If you get people busy with interesting project, they' don't have the time to fight. 23:49 <@don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs: how do you think we can get more people? 23:49 <+SimonRichter> SteveMcIntyre, indeed, these are related 23:49 <+WouterVerhelst> SamHocevar: I don't think you get legitimacy simply by getting a port in the archive 23:49 <+SteveMcIntyre> as I said earlier, a reasonable minimum base code of conduct will help here 23:49 <+WouterVerhelst> 68k is in the archive too, and has similar problems to kfreebsd-i386 in some regards (obviously not all, since it's still Linux) 23:49 <@don_armstrong> SamHocevar: what do you feel is hindering them from entering the archive? 23:49 <+SimonRichter> SteveMcIntyre, and I disagree on that one 23:49 <+WouterVerhelst> +m 23:49 <+SamHocevar> WouterVerhelst: I think it helps a lot; just because it's not enough doesn't mean it's not worth it 23:49 <+SteveMcIntyre> make it more obvious that most of us do *not* find the sniping funny, or useful for example 23:50 <+RaphaelHertzog> Thus the solution is to help people realize their project... why discuss endlessly if kfreebsd-i386 is worth it when we can add it to the archive and have the numerous members happy to do even more good work ? 23:50 <+AigarsMahinovs> don_armstrong: Ubuntu gets loads of users because of its wow factor. Some of those are bound to become developers. To get more deelopers we need to get more users join the free software community overal and more developers to preffer developing in Debian. 23:50 <+SteveMcIntyre> and also start working out exactly what common goals we really have as a project 23:50 <+WouterVerhelst> SamHocevar: I didn't say we shouldn't put kfreebsd in the archive nor that it wouldn't be worth it; only that it doesn't affect the port's legitimacy 23:50 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: what needs to be done to darft the code of conduct? 23:50 <+SamHocevar> don_armstrong: the common "it's not perfect yet so we're better without it" belief that we often use as an excuse for the status quo 23:50 <@don_armstrong> SamHocevar: how do you plan on overcomming that? 23:51 <+SamHocevar> WouterVerhelst: on that precise point I disagree 23:51 <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: we've two major issues with using resources -- keeping track of what's available and what's needed (eg hardware donations, bandwidth/hosting donations, and what people actually need machines to help them with) and feeling authorised to actually use them (eg, i didn't feel comfortable spending debian money to fly myself places to promote debian, so i ended up only authorising smaller flights for toher people) 23:51 <@don_armstrong> AigarsMahinovs: how should we go about getting more developers involved in Debian and keeping them once they're here? 23:51 <+RaphaelHertzog> Of couse, we must take care of problems, but that's something that are solved in a continual basis, not in a "get it right straight the first time" 23:51 <+SteveMcIntyre> if needs be, encourage those that do not agree with those goals to fit in better or (if necessary) leave and work on their own goals separately rather than dragging Debian along 23:51 <+RaphaelHertzog> on this I agree with sam 23:51 <+SimonRichter> SteveMcIntyre, a Code of Conduct is not going to improve communications, rather degrade them by being waved in the faces of people instead of civilly addressing them, 23:51 <@don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns: what should be changed to help us keep track of what is available and what is needed? 23:51 <+WouterVerhelst> RaphaelHertzog: what do you mean with "this"? :) 23:52 <@don_armstrong> Debian receives a generous $10 million dollar donation; what do we spend it on? 23:52 <+SamHocevar> don_armstrong: by making it more difficult for people in position of power to refuse contributions, namely by having their teams grow with "younger" developers less prone to thinking like that 23:52 <+SteveMcIntyre> SimonRichter: no, I disagree; coming up with an agreed *basic* code will help; consider it as encouragement to do the right thing rather than as a stick to beat people woth 23:52 <+SteveMcIntyre> s/woth/with/ 23:52 <+RaphaelHertzog> WouterVerhelst: the fact that we should start first and fix continuously instead of doing nothing 23:52 <+WouterVerhelst> SimonRichter: having an informal code of conduct as a guideline rather than a hard and fast rule will certainly help 23:52 <@don_armstrong> SamHocevar: how will the teams be forced to grow or avoid refusing contributions? 23:52 <+SteveMcIntyre> to draft a code, we will need discussion and consensus; that's (admittedly) not going to be easy 23:52 <+AigarsMahinovs> don_armstrong: Debian need to _again_ become the kind of distro and the kind of community that one would be cool to be part of. Some things taht IMHO could achieve that have been raised here and in my platform, but much more is needed. 23:52 <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: i think (hope) an rt instance will help a little; ultimately we'll need someone willing to volunteer time to keep track of it. kalle kivemaa as debian auditor's been trying to work out what funds are held in debian's name around the world for a few months now, eg -- but it's a hard job 23:53 <+SimonRichter> SteveMcIntyre, I agree; the hard part is how to avoid it being used as a stick 23:53 <+SteveMcIntyre> but I believe/hope that the vast majority of DDs are sensible people who will not object to such a discussion 23:53 <+WouterVerhelst> AigarsMahinovs: how do you view that Debian could lead in cleaning up $HOME? 23:53 <+WouterVerhelst> as opposed to, say, freedesktop.org? 23:53 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre, WouterVerhelst, SimonRichter: what should be done about violations of the code of conduct? 23:53 <+SteveMcIntyre> AigarsMahinovs: same Q from me 23:53 <+SamHocevar> don_armstrong: for delegated teams, the DPL has the power to delegate new persons; for other teams I'd like to have the NM process accept people faster if they are in a team 23:54 <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: to start with, get people to buy in so that we shouldn't get there 23:54 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: and beyond that? 23:54 <+RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: why haven't you responded to my question on -vote ? :-) 23:54 <+SteveMcIntyre> if we do have violations, then we will need to agree on consequences 23:54 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: I mostly see a code of conduct as a guideline. When people often don't follow it, that means it sucks 23:54 <+SimonRichter> violations of the CoC must be dealt with on an individual basis 23:54 <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: right now, i would suggest that it not be given to debian directly, but instead spent elsewhere -- eg on a "summer of code" like program that might include debian, or on upstream development, or to employ debian developers, or similar. 23:54 <+SteveMcIntyre> that's something where I don't have a magic answer, I want to get discussion going 23:54 <+WouterVerhelst> SteveMcIntyre: +1 from me :) 23:55 <+SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: I haven't yet, I'm still drafting my answers to you and to Ron 23:55 <+AigarsMahinovs> WouterVerhelst: Debian is the only organisation that has enough coverage over the whole range of the free software projects to produce and implement the principles and the code required for the transition. We would need to work with FD.org to make sure that what we do become the standard, but I believe that Debian is the only place where this standard could actually be implemented. 23:55 <+SimonRichter> AnthonyTowns, I think people would have less of a problem with dunc-tank if it wasn't perceived as pushing an own agenda 23:55 <@don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns: is that because of our reticence to spend money? or is it that it could just be better spent elsewhere? 23:55 <+SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: it's difficult for me to explain why I'm not in favour of a board that I agreed to join if it were to be created 23:55 <+WouterVerhelst> AigarsMahinovs: how are you going to properly deal with the massive amounts of patches that would be required for, say, KDE to implement that? 23:56 <+SimonRichter> AnthonyTowns, for example, I can see that having a group of people coordinate funding development work is a good thing 23:56 <@don_armstrong> what, in all of your opinion, are the weak points of Debian? 23:56 <+SteveMcIntyre> AigarsMahinovs: and how do you expect to convince upstreams to take patches if they don't care about FD ideas? 23:56 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: should anything be done about the rare failures? If so, what? 23:56 <+SamHocevar> Debian has too much inertia 23:57 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: we don't have enough focus. 23:57 <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: we're probably getting too big 23:57 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: eh, failures of the code of conduct, you mean? 23:57 <+RaphaelHertzog> all of the above at the same time 23:57 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: yes 23:57 <+SteveMcIntyre> we're spending too much time arguing and bike-shedding rather than getting real work done in a lot of cases 23:57 <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: we don't have the acocunting procedures in place to cope with that much money -- the spi treasurer would have a heart attack for one thing; second, i think we'd have a very hard time actually working out how to spend the money; at present we don't have good procedures to spend money outside the US generally 23:57 <@don_armstrong> SamHocevar, WouterVerhelst, SteveMcIntyre, RaphaelHertzog: what (if anything) can be done to deal with that? 23:57 <+AigarsMahinovs> WouterVerhelst: some technical solutions have been proposed where a temporal measure is put in place while not all patches are implemented. I myself do not now of a technical feasibility of, for example, an LD_PRELOAD library doing this, but smarter coders than me could no doubt figure that one out. 23:58 <+SteveMcIntyre> it's also too easy to miss the sheer amount of good work that is happening quietly every day, because it's lost in the noise 23:58 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: is there any good way to bring the good work forward? 23:58 <+AigarsMahinovs> SteveMcIntyre: we do already something similar towards FHS compliance, why not extend the same toward the home folder? 23:58 <+SimonRichter> AnthonyTowns, plus, dealing with that as a non-profit is difficult 23:58 <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: work on stopping the flamewars, for one 23:58 <+SamHocevar> don_armstrong: more people and more work done; my platform has a lot about that 23:58 <+SteveMcIntyre> also push more of the good work, advertise it 23:59 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: we should first work towards actually making it rare, by documenting what people actually expect rather than some ideal utopian perfect world we'd like to live in. After that, I expect the problem will mostly solve itself 23:59 <+SteveMcIntyre> the Debian Package of the Day blog is wonderful for that, for example 23:59 <+RaphaelHertzog> exactly, more work done, and more visibility to that work 23:59 <+WouterVerhelst> this will take a long time, though, I'm not even sure a year is enough 23:59 <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: weak points of debian? we're trying large scale, cross-cultural, decentralised, volunteer development. that's not something that's been done before in any field ttbomk, so we're facing problems that people haven't solved before, and that's difficult. 23:59 <+RaphaelHertzog> but I want everybody motivated given a chance, 23:59 <+SteveMcIntyre> AigarsMahinovs: the FHS has mostly been working to get people to use existing locations AFAICS 23:59 <+RaphaelHertzog> and the most motivated are the DPL candidates 23:59 <+SamHocevar> I cannot magically solve the inertia problem; if Debian as a whole doesn't want to change, then it won't, we need enough people who want it to change --- Day changed Sun Mar 11 2007 00:00 <+RaphaelHertzog> that's why several of them are in the DPL board, they have energy, and I want them to continue on that track 00:00 <+SteveMcIntyre> AigarsMahinovs: the problem is that no such locations have ever been agreed in home-dirs 00:00 <@don_armstrong> If you could name one self-contained thing about Debian that you want to change, and the code to implement that change would just magically appear, what would you name? 00:00 <+SteveMcIntyre> we then get problems in the places where people may want to use Debian alongside other distros/other Unixes using common home dirs 00:00 <+SteveMcIntyre> that's a real problem... 00:00 <+AigarsMahinovs> SteveMcIntyre: the same can be said about moving configuration files into more proper places inside user home folders, and once Debian and FD.org agrees on that, I feel that it would have similar weight as the FHS. 00:00 <+RaphaelHertzog> the ability to handle several profiles in our central LDAP 00:01 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: if it would magically appear? I'd love fixes for all our bugs to magically appear 00:01 <+RaphaelHertzog> so that we could have DD, translators, packagers 00:01 <+RaphaelHertzog> each with their own rights 00:01 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: heh. one thing. ;-) 00:01 <@don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog: what is the first step (in your opinion) towards making that happen? 00:01 <+SamHocevar> I must say I agree with RaphaelHertzog: different (incremental?) developers' rights is the way to go 00:01 <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: keyring management, it already happened exactly like that :D 00:02 <+RaphaelHertzog> don_armstrong: for me, learning how to change a LDAP schema :-) 00:02 <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: I'd love to get the NM thing working better, with an agreed idea of how we should treat maintainers, translators, documentation writers etc 00:02 <@don_armstrong> Comming back to communication: what can be done to work around communication breakdowns? 00:02 * SteveMcIntyre snaps RaphaelHertzog 00:02 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: I'd love for Debian to be a place where the boundaries of technology are pushed forward. But that's future dreaming, and I don't think it's relevant in a DPL environment. Most responsibilities for the DPL, as I see it, do not involve much actual coding anyway 00:02 <+RaphaelHertzog> but then we have to discuss this with many teams (ftp-masters, NM) 00:02 <+SimonRichter> SamHocevar, I think the NM process is a bit of a group building process; the initiation ritual (NM) certainly helps people in identifying with Debian. 00:03 <+SamHocevar> don_armstrong: if the magically appearing code was a totally hypothetical question, I'd say every package in the same VCS 00:03 <+SimonRichter> SamHocevar, so I'm not sure there should be too many intermediate steps 00:03 <+AigarsMahinovs> SteveMcIntyre: it could also help to call in some key developers from other distributions, so that the new FHS /home extension can truly become a universal and commony accepted standard that Debian can then put into the policy and start implementing and pushing upstream. 00:03 <+SteveMcIntyre> AigarsMahinovs: maybe, yes; it's a *BIG* job... :-) 00:03 <+AigarsMahinovs> SteveMcIntyre: I fully agree with that 00:03 <+SimonRichter> re: weak points of Debian: we feel a need to compete with other distributions rather than doing what is best 00:03 <+SamHocevar> SimonRichter: I believe one should not wait T&S to become a developer; T&S should only be required for upload rights 00:04 <+SimonRichter> SamHocevar, T&S is the shortest part of NM 00:04 * SteveMcIntyre nods SamHocevar to a certain extent 00:04 <@don_armstrong> SimonRichter: can you underline an example where we've followed other distributions to compete instead of doing what is best? 00:04 <+SamHocevar> SimonRichter: one (or several, maybe three) advocate, a PGP signature, a commitment to free software, and you're in 00:04 <+SteveMcIntyre> but rather than no T&S, maybe a different/more targeted equivalent 00:04 <+SamHocevar> SimonRichter: what do you mean is the longest part? DAM approval? 00:05 <+SimonRichter> don_armstrong, the discussion of more frequent releases cropping up all the time 00:05 <+RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: some history of contribution is still required 00:05 <+AnthonyTowns> *: As DPL you're considered a representative of Debian; beyond replying to leader@debian.org email, what would you plan to do in that role? Do you think it's a good idea to encourage other people to be viewed as representatives of Debian, and if so, how? 00:05 <@don_armstrong> getting back to the $10M donation question, which only Anthony answered: if a sizeable donation was made to Debian, how would you spend it? 00:05 <+WouterVerhelst> SamHocevar: you're forgetting P&P, which is what most NM's spend most time in (for the parts they are part of the delays, at least) 00:05 <+RaphaelHertzog> otherwise you have the "I want a @d.o email" syndrom 00:05 <+SimonRichter> SamHocevar, P&P 00:05 <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: to work around communications breakdowns is difficult 00:06 <+SteveMcIntyre> ideally we don't want to get there in the first place 00:06 <+SamHocevar> ok, don't you believe P&P could be split into P (required to be a DD) and P (required to get upload rights)? 00:06 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: any ideas on how to do it, though? 00:06 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: I've missed that one, I think. If $10M was offered, I'd refuse it. Debian does not need that amount of money, and deciding what to do with it could well mean its death due to the flame wars. 00:06 <+SteveMcIntyre> but when things _do_ fail, then there are ways to work 00:06 <+SteveMcIntyre> moderation to try and get the parties talking sensibly again 00:06 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: any ideas on how to identify those sorts of problems earlier on and stop them? 00:06 <+AigarsMahinovs> we could just give the $10M to Ubuntu :) 00:07 <+SamHocevar> does anyone *really* believe the "I want a @d.o email" syndrom is real and commonplace? I for one have never used my Debian address in 7 years 00:07 <@don_armstrong> (nb: please feel free to ask eachother questions too; I'm just a facilitator here) 00:07 <+SteveMcIntyre> work to resolve whatever underlying problems are actually causing the breakdown 00:07 <+SimonRichter> don_armstrong, I think it could be used for travelling costs to build teams; I do see the danger of becoming dependent on that sort of thing though 00:07 <+SteveMcIntyre> and in some cases we maybe just have to acknowledge that some people just won't get on 00:07 <+RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: it's not common place, but it happens 00:07 <+SteveMcIntyre> in those situations, we'll have to work out reasonable ways to split them up 00:08 <@don_armstrong> In what ways do you think Debian can use its resources more effectively? 00:08 <@don_armstrong> (I asked it before, but lets come back to it) 00:08 <+SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: what would you do if someone in your DPL board grew uninterested or overwhelmed? leave the seat vacant? appoint someone else? 00:08 <+SteveMcIntyre> comms is something that needs to be worked on on a per-case basis 00:08 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: who should be responsible for them? 00:08 <+WouterVerhelst> for clarity, I obviously won't refuse all donations, and I will use money on meetings, which is where I think most of our money should go. But 10M is just way too much 00:09 <+AigarsMahinovs> SamHocevar: it is real. Many teenage developers have the need for recognition and getting the DD status and the @d.o email to show that off is a great way to get recognition. 00:09 <+SteveMcIntyre> SamHocevar: yes, I've spoken to many people that seem to want to get into Debian "because it's cool" 00:09 <+RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: discuss with him to see, if it's going to last, if he goes completely MIA, we can resort to phone to have some news 00:09 <+SteveMcIntyre> and they'd like the d.o email 00:09 <+SteveMcIntyre> I think it's a good thing to educate those people so they understand better, or even to put them off altogether if necessary 00:09 <@don_armstrong> What do you expect to accomplish (if elected) in the first three months of office? 00:09 <+RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: then I would have no problem appointing someone else after discussing with the rest of the board 00:10 <+RaphaelHertzog> but I also expect to have different profiles 00:10 <+AnthonyTowns> RaphaelHertzog: if you win by a landslide, but sam and steve come dead last, even after NOTA, will you uninvite them from the dpl board? 00:10 <+RaphaelHertzog> some will more likely make proposals whiler other will mainly comment 00:10 <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: in the first 3 months of office, I expect to deliver enough sponsorship money to Debconf to make it work 00:10 <+SteveMcIntyre> (primarily) 00:10 <+SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: did you consider having a woman in your board? 00:10 <+RaphaelHertzog> AnthonyTowns: no, they're still only 2 out of 10 00:10 <+SteveMcIntyre> I also want to get some more of the DAM/DKR/DSA split done that AJ and I have been working on lately 00:11 <+SteveMcIntyre> beyond that, anything's a bonus to be honest 00:11 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: in the first three months, not much. I expect to get worked in during the first month up to the first month and a half, and expect to get my first results a few weeks or months later 00:11 <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: can you go into any detail on that split? 00:11 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: lets say the first 6 months then 00:11 <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: a little; we're working on ways to help devolve the keyring maintenance work, as mentioned on -project recently 00:11 <+SamHocevar> okay, I'll take your word for it that people actually /do/ want an @d.o address for fame. I'll stick that with the upload rights in my previous comments 00:11 <+RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: yes but I have too few contacts with them and none candidated spontaneously 00:12 <+SteveMcIntyre> that should allow people to do the keyring-maint job without needing to be root@ 00:12 <+SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: you might want to lurk on #debian-women then 00:12 <+WouterVerhelst> I'm hoping to get the transparency of the project up, and do hope to see the first results of changing culture at that point, too. Other than that, I'm not actually planning to make many radical changes, so... 00:12 <+SteveMcIntyre> ditto, DAM should not need root powers - DAM should talk to to DKR and DSA to control exactly who is a DD 00:13 <+RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: I'm in that channel, but well, IRC discussion don't mean much wrt Debian's involvment 00:13 <+SteveMcIntyre> and then DSA should not need to be a gateway, but should be simply popping the changes off the queue as they're needed 00:13 <+WouterVerhelst> RaphaelHertzog: there's a mailinglist, too :) 00:13 <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: by the first six months, i'd like to have some of the assisting dpls actively and visibly working on a project of their own choosing -- something of the scale of the problems people have described in the past as "i haven't done that because i'm not dpl" 00:13 <+RaphaelHertzog> and some women that I appreciated are not (yet) DD too (Meike Reichle for example) 00:13 <+RaphaelHertzog> s/appreciated/appreciate/ 00:13 <+SamHocevar> RaphaelHertzog: but IRC discussions surely are a huge part of Debian's communication channels, aren't they? 00:14 <@don_armstrong> What are the major problems you've all identified in your platforms that you actually have to be DPL to perform? 00:14 <+AigarsMahinovs> SamHocevar: not for casual DDs 00:14 <+SteveMcIntyre> I'm curious what the other candidates think - why have we not had a female DPL candidate yet? 00:14 <+RaphaelHertzog> SamHocevar: yes they are, but you don't to follow 20 channels and 20 lists easily 00:14 <+RaphaelHertzog> I watch #alioth closely, but not #debian-women 00:15 <+WouterVerhelst> to change a culture, you need to be someone that'll be listened to, rather than just one person among a mass of equals. 00:15 <+SamHocevar> AigarsMahinovs: but for many involved DDs, and also many involved NMs, it is 00:15 <+AnthonyTowns> SteveMcIntyre: we haven't had a spanish or an asian candidate either ttbomk; i think it's mostly just demographics 00:15 <+WouterVerhelst> I don't think I'll be able to do much in that regard without having at least some moral authority which an election could get me. 00:15 <@don_armstrong> Will any of you you push to change any of the fundamental documents of Debian? 00:15 <@don_armstrong> (perhaps by adding a code of conduct to them, etc?) 00:15 <+RaphaelHertzog> WouterVerhelst: on this part, I really disagree with you 00:16 <+RaphaelHertzog> we had this discussion on -vote already 00:16 <+SamHocevar> AigarsMahinovs: especially for debian-women, which aims at making Debian more accessible to a part of the population; IRC definitely helps make it more accessible 00:16 <+AnthonyTowns> WouterVerhelst: if you come second, will you feel like you have that moral authority? if you are/aren't an assistant dpl or dpl board member, will that have any effect? 00:16 <+RaphaelHertzog> you can prepare the project for a future direction that you like 00:16 <+RaphaelHertzog> and if that direction is the easiest way to go forward, the project is likely to follow it 00:16 <@don_armstrong> (15 minutes left) 00:16 <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: I think the communications improvements really need the DPL mandate behind them to get things moving 00:16 <+WouterVerhelst> AnthonyTowns: if I end up second, and the DPL-elect agrees with me, then I probably will have that moral authority, yes 00:16 <+RaphaelHertzog> that's what I did with Alioth and the PTS 00:16 <+AigarsMahinovs> SamHocevar: I am not sure how that works. I for one feel mailing lists to be far more intimidating then mailing lists. 00:16 <+SamHocevar> don_armstrong: I'd like to clarify the "We won't hide problems" in our SC to make it clean that it's not only about bugs in our software 00:17 <+SteveMcIntyre> otherwise, many of my ideas can be done by anyone 00:17 <+AnthonyTowns> WouterVerhelst: if you end up last, but the dpl-elect agrees with you? 00:17 <+WouterVerhelst> Also, being assistant DPL or board member might help. 00:17 <+SamHocevar> AigarsMahinovs: you mean IRC I guess, but I see your point 00:17 <+SteveMcIntyre> the main difference is that if elected I expect to be able to devote more time to them 00:17 <@don_armstrong> How willing are you all to make controversial decisions? 00:18 <+WouterVerhelst> AnthonyTowns: if I end up last (that is, below NOTA, or in close proximity to it), then it's clear that most of the project does not want me to change Debian's culture. Whether the DPL-elect agrees with me doesn't matter at that point, because you can't change a culture if the people making up that culture don't want it changed. 00:18 <+SteveMcIntyre> I don't expect at *this* point to be making any changes to any of the fundamental docs, no 00:18 <+SamHocevar> for instance, developers who wish to leave the project are supposed to do it publicly (as per our Constitution), but they always do it on -private; same for [VAC] messages (I understand there's a privacy issue here, but one should be made aware that a developer is going to be away for a while) 00:18 <+SteveMcIntyre> but that doesn't mean it won't happen - I have no plans, but things can change 00:19 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: I think controversy should be avoided if/when possible; but in some cases, there's no choice and you *have* to make a controversial decision. 00:19 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: what can be done to reduce the controversy? 00:19 <+RaphaelHertzog> don_armstrong: I'm not willing to make controversial decisions until I'm convinced that they are the only way forward 00:19 <+SteveMcIntyre> I'm quite prepared to make controversial decisions, but only if they're necessary and (imo) correct 00:19 <+AnthonyTowns> I don't think controversy should be a deciding factor. Often it's possible to resolve disagreements with some sort of compromise, or a more thorough understanding/explanation of the idea. I don't think loudly disagreeing is a good way to contribute in and of itself though -- better to talk quietly and have good reasons, and if you lose the debate sit quietly and wait until you can say "I told you so" later, imo. 00:20 <+AigarsMahinovs> SamHocevar: I assume that vacation field in LDAP is more useful for that - DDs see the reason, non-DDs only see that a developer is away 00:20 <@don_armstrong> (I suppose it depends on the decision, but how in general would you act to reduce it?) 00:20 <+SteveMcIntyre> on most decisions, we're better off getting consensus, but sometime it's difficult to get everybody to agree 00:20 <+SamHocevar> don_armstrong: recent history shows that controversial decisions are a risky move for the DPL; I hope that the election will act as a confirmation that the DPL's platform was consensual 00:20 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: talk to those people whose opinion makes it a controversial (i.e., who oppose to your idea), and figure out what they'd prefer to see; with that information, try to work towards consensus 00:20 * SteveMcIntyre nods WouterVerhelst 00:20 <+SamHocevar> AigarsMahinovs: then there is no reason not to mail -devel that one's going to be away, is there? (as far as I remember I have always sent my VAC messages to -devel) 00:21 <@don_armstrong> Ask yourself and answer a question that you wish I'd asked you. 00:21 <+RaphaelHertzog> Since consensus is the best, I want to make it the norm again, and I want to prove with the board, that it's still possible on many topics. 00:21 <+WouterVerhelst> if consensus turns out to be impossible, then either don't force the change through (if possible), or be unhappy at having to be controversial :) 00:21 <+SamHocevar> AigarsMahinovs: asking "is developer X away" is very different from being notified that developer X is away 00:21 <+AigarsMahinovs> don_armstrong: I am willing to make contraversial decisions as long as they are consistent with my pre-election platform - as in I already have the mandate. In other cases I would also go forward and decide things that can be reversed later. 00:22 <@don_armstrong> lets tread deper: What should be done about serious conflicts between developers and/or groups of developers? 00:22 <+AigarsMahinovs> SamHocevar: we could make an Atom stream from that :) 00:22 <+SteveMcIntyre> going back to an earlier Q: large donations... 00:22 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: the only thing that can be done in case of serious conflicts is "mediation". 00:22 <@don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog: how will the communications/decisions within the board be documented? Is it going to supplant the cabal? 00:22 <+WouterVerhelst> that isn't easy, however, and often fails, as we've seen this year. 00:23 <@don_armstrong> WouterVerhelst: what to do when it fails? 00:23 <+SteveMcIntyre> given a very large donation, I'd love to be able to make Debconf bigger and pay for more of the DDs to come along 00:23 <+WouterVerhelst> however, I've done some mediations in a debian context, and many of them were actually successful 00:23 <+SamHocevar> don_armstrong: easy answer I know, but maybe avoid serious conflicts in the first time? :) 00:23 <+RaphaelHertzog> don_armstrong: I expect most decisions to be made on the public list 00:23 <+WouterVerhelst> don_armstrong: try again. if they continue failing, nothing can be done. 00:23 <@don_armstrong> RaphaelHertzog: -project? 00:24 <+RaphaelHertzog> the board is not a cabal, it's a team with members from many cabals (ftpmasters, french cabal, RM, ... ;-)) 00:24 <@don_armstrong> 5 mintues 00:24 <+WouterVerhelst> you can't force people to work together; and while expelling one of the parties is always possible, that inherently means you put the blame at one side of the argument 00:24 <+WouterVerhelst> which never is fair 00:24 <+AigarsMahinovs> don_armstrong: Only when a controversial decision is to be made that can not be reversed later I would do what I can to delay the decision and seek more consultations. However IMHO DPL must be decisive and not ask a committee or the whole project what to do in every case and situation. However he must also be prepared to deal with the fallout of his decisions. 00:24 <+RaphaelHertzog> the board should be a communication backbone for the project :-) 00:24 <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: if we get serious conflicts, then we try to mediate 00:25 <+SteveMcIntyre> if that fails altogether, then (as I said earlier) we try to defuse by keeping people apart 00:25 <@don_armstrong> Will users have any capability in the decision taking of Debian or are DD the only one that have this responsability? 00:25 <+RaphaelHertzog> don_armstrong: nope, not -project, a public list but restriect to the members for posting 00:25 <+SimonRichter> if possible, yes 00:25 <@don_armstrong> SimonRichter: how? 00:25 <+WouterVerhelst> SteveMcIntyre: you've done a mediation attempt between Sven and Frans this year, but it failed. Can you name the reasons why they failed, and do you think you could do better if you were to try again? 00:25 <+WouterVerhelst> (if answering that requires you to say things that were said in private, then no need to answer it) 00:26 <+SteveMcIntyre> WouterVerhelst: we tried to mediate, but civil conversation broke down 00:26 <+AigarsMahinovs> It is very common in conflicts that what people really want to achieve is not too controversial and both positions could be met if both agreed to cooperate. 00:26 <+SteveMcIntyre> when the people involved do not even respect the mediatiors, then things are going nowhere 00:26 <+AigarsMahinovs> that is true and little can be done about that 00:26 <+AnthonyTowns> *: do you think "developers" means coders/hackers, or covers other contributions like translating, graphics, etc? what about user support or promotion? 00:27 <+SamHocevar> one serious issue with Sven and Frans was the language; I don't want to minimise the impact of Sven's words, but the translation to English sure helped things escalate 00:27 <+SimonRichter> don_armstrong, giving a formal vote to nonmembers is difficult, but I can see some sort of "informal straw poll" or "request for comment" mails going out where users would get their say, too 00:27 <@don_armstrong> AnthonyTowns: how should we get more users involved? 00:27 <+SteveMcIntyre> if trying mediation again in a similar situation, I would make it 100% clear up front that abusing the mediators would immediately terminate the discussion 00:27 <+AnthonyTowns> (I think all of those are "developers", but it seems a lot of people, at least in .au think "developer" excludes those poeple) 00:27 <+WouterVerhelst> AnthonyTowns: I think "Developers" in a Debian context can mean anything that eventually can only be done through uploading some package 00:28 <+WouterVerhelst> so people translating, writing documentation, etc., can all be Developers IMO. 00:28 <@don_armstrong> 2 minutes 00:28 <+AnthonyTowns> WouterVerhelst: (we've had at least one person become a debian developer in order to help maintain mirroring stuff, which isn't uploading packages) 00:28 <+WouterVerhelst> user support is a different matter, 00:28 <+RaphaelHertzog> development is a generic term for growth at least in french, so I have no problem to continue using the term DD to emcompass other profiles 00:28 <@don_armstrong> SimonRichter: how do you think that kind of poll should be implemented? 00:28 <+SamHocevar> I believe in the same definition of a "developer" as WouterVerhelst 00:28 <+SimonRichter> AnthonyTowns, I think everyone who is a DD should know basic things like packaging 00:28 <+WouterVerhelst> AnthonyTowns: okay, so I missed infrastructure then :) the point that I have really is that anything that helps Debian forward can be seen as "Developer" 00:28 <+AigarsMahinovs> In my mind developers=maintainers and so far have not had enough reasons to reconsider that. 00:29 <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: i don't know. holger's debian-community project, jvw's unofficial forums, and local conferences are good ways, but i expect we could do orders of magnitude better at it 00:29 <@don_armstrong> 1 minute 00:29 <+WouterVerhelst> and while helping users use Debian is valuable, it's not actually the same thing as helping Debian grow. 00:29 <+SamHocevar> if we're trying to create something like the "big players" we cannot do it only with hackers 00:29 <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: users of course have some say in how Debian works 00:29 <+SteveMcIntyre> our lists are open by default, and many of our ideas come from users 00:29 <+SteveMcIntyre> and of course that's where we get new DDs too 00:30 <@don_armstrong> ok; thanks everyone 00:30 <+SteveMcIntyre> there's nothing magic about being a DD there 00:30 <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: on the other hand, i think having users be contributors -- in whatever way they can, big or small, technical or not -- is even more important both for debian and free software in general 00:30 <@don_armstrong> we're going to stop here and the candidates will have 8 minutes to write a closing statement 00:30 <+SimonRichter> don_armstrong, some web page with buttons, or a special mail alias where opinions would be collected. The former could possibly be attacked, but asks for only a few seconds of everyone's time so it could provide some insight when we are interested in how a certain thing is perceived. 00:31 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [-vvvv AnthonyTowns SimonRichter SteveMcIntyre WouterVerhelst] by don_armstrong 00:31 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [-vv SamHocevar AigarsMahinovs] by don_armstrong 00:31 <@don_armstrong> while they're doing that, I'd like to first thank the candidates for volunteering to serve as DPL 00:32 <@don_armstrong> all of the candidates this year have presented some interesting ideas, and I hope that even those who are not elected work to get them implemented 00:32 <@don_armstrong> Next, thanks to MJ Ray (slef) and Neil McGovern (Maulkin) for assisting me behind the scenes in collecting questions for the debate 00:33 <@don_armstrong> please feel free to ask the candidates to followup to questions that you identified in the debate on debian-vote@lists.debian.org, esp. if I wasn't able to ask your question 00:34 <@don_armstrong> Finally, thanks to the audience and those who e-mailed me questions for participating; remember to vote when the polls openn 00:35 -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [-v RaphaelHertzog] by don_armstrong 00:36 <@don_armstrong> The logs from this (and the other channels) will be made available on -vote for your perusal 00:39 <@don_armstrong> The bots will start pasting the closing statements in a few moments 00:40 <+d|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5668 00:40 <+e|> Thanks to all the candidates, the moderators and all the people 00:40 <+f|> posing questions. I hope that we've done a good job of answering 00:40 <+b|> those questions. If there is any more clarification needed on 00:40 <+c|> some points, please ask us on debian-vote in the next week 00:40 <+d|> before voting opens. 00:40 <+e|> . 00:40 <+f|> Thank you in advance to any DDs that may vote for me. I believe 00:40 <+b|> I could do a good job as the DPL, as stated in my platform and 00:40 <+c|> elsewhere. So could many of the other candidates - it's been 00:40 <+d|> great to see that they all want to work for Debian and have lots 00:40 <+e|> of ideas on what they could do. 00:40 <+f|> . 00:40 <+b|> Please remember to vote! 00:40 <+c|> End Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5668 00:40 <+d|> EOT: ================================================== 00:40 <+e|> Begin Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5667 00:40 <+f|> Thanks to Don, slef and Maulkin for hosting. I don't have anything to add 00:40 <+b|> to what I've already said -- if you've got other questions, please ask 00:40 <+c|> them on -vote. Thanks for coming and your interest in Debian's future :) 00:40 <+d|> End Reponse: AnthonyTowns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5667 00:40 <+e|> EOT: ================================================== 00:40 <+f|> Begin Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5670 00:40 <+b|> Well, I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to listen, for organising the debate, and for taking part in it. 00:40 <+c|> I know that because of my Q4 2006 history of humourous (and sometimes tactless) planet.d.o entries many DDs believe I am this year's joke candidate. I'd like to stress again that I am not, and that I regret hurting the people I hurt. 00:40 <+d|> I wish luck to everyone in these elections. And if you don't like me as a person, I suggest you have a look at Gustavo Franco's platform! 00:40 <+e|> End Reponse: SamHocevar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5670 00:40 <+f|> EOT: ================================================== 00:40 <+b|> Begin Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5671 00:40 <+c|> I'd like to thank Don Armstrong for running the DPL debate. Although 00:40 <+d|> this type of thing really isn't my cup of tea, I must say he's done a 00:40 <+e|> hell of a job. Some people have previously expressed confusion at my 00:40 <+f|> lack of detail about what I'll be doing once elected, and I've tried to 00:40 <+b|> provide a bit more detail during this debate. I hope that worked out 00:40 <+c|> well. 00:40 <+d|> . 00:40 <+e|> I think it's been interesting to somewhat directly talk to the other 00:40 <+f|> contestants about the ideas they had for Debian; in some cases, this has 00:40 <+b|> led me to better understand their motives in joining the DPL race, and 00:40 <+c|> to better understand what they plan to do. If I'm elected, this will 00:40 <+d|> also help me to better decide whom to talk to when the project faces an 00:40 <+e|> issue that is close to what one of the other candidates suggested -- 00:40 <+f|> which I entirely plan to do. 00:41 <+b|> . 00:41 <+c|> I'd also like to thank the other candidates for running, and the 00:41 <+d|> audience for listening; I regret not being able to stay longer, though 00:41 <+e|> -- it's 1:30 AM over here, and I'm starting to get sleepy; but I'll 00:41 <+f|> happily answer any questions you still might have on the debian-vote 00:41 <+b|> mailinglist. 00:41 <+c|> End Reponse: Wouter Verhelst URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5671 00:41 <+d|> EOT: ================================================== 00:41 <+e|> Begin Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5672 00:41 <+f|> Debian is slowly losing its ground and something needs to be done to get more users to Debian in order that more of them would become developers and to get more non-Debian developers come and help us. We need to do something to bring the cool back into Debian. 00:41 <+b|> If I am elected, I will do all in my power to allow Debian as a project to take a step back, relax and think big on what we as a project what to do in the next 5-10 years. The concepts in my platform are only that, concepts - they can be done and can be very useful for all of us and to the Free 00:41 <+b|> ..Software movement in general. However even more creative thinking would be needed from the rest of the community to really get us going. 00:41 <+c|> End Reponse: AigarsMahinovs URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5672 00:41 <+d|> EOT: ================================================== 00:41 <+e|> Begin Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5673 00:41 <+f|> First, I'd like to thank everybody who survived 3 hours of intense IRC 00:41 <+b|> discussions. ;-) Some difficult questions have been asked, all candidates 00:41 <+c|> could respond and we had no flames. We have no magic solutions either. 00:41 <+d|> But it's a proof that we can discuss things sanely if we're in a limited 00:41 <+e|> set of persons, and given more time I'm sure that we would be able to find 00:41 <+f|> out good compromise on important points. 00:41 <+b|> . 00:41 -!- WouterVerhelst is now known as Yoe 00:41 <+c|> That' the only promise I want to make: I'm going to bring forward all the 00:41 <+d|> important problems that hinder my work and the work of people around me 00:41 <+e|> and we'll discuss between reasonable people what we can do about them. 00:41 <+f|> We'll find solutions, because despite all the ramblings, we all want the 00:41 <+b|> best for Debian. And if you engage a discussion with this in mind, then 00:41 <+c|> you're likely to get positive results. 00:41 <+d|> . 00:41 <+e|> Of course, this needs to a choice of the whole project, and that's why I 00:41 <+f|> ask you to vote for me and my board. Why not get 4 DPL candidates (and 4 00:41 <+b|> motivated people with complementary goals) for the price of one? :-) 00:41 <+c|> End Reponse: Raphael Hertzog URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/5673 00:41 <+d|> EOT: ================================================== 00:42 -!- RaphaelHertzog is now known as buxy 00:42 -!- AnthonyTowns is now known as aj 00:42 -!- You're now known as Sledge 00:43 <@don_armstrong> That concludes the Debate! Have a good localtime! 00:43 < Sledge> nn all 00:43 -!- dondelelcaro is now known as don_inlab 00:43 -!- don_armstrong is now known as dondelelcaro 00:43 -!- SimonRichter is now known as GyrosGeier 00:43 -!- AigarsMahinovs is now known as aigarius