This is my attempt to boil down the full 1700-line log file into a short summary of what was discussed, by deleting, joining and reordering lines. I may have biased it, so read the full one for the real record. This is nicer in CSS colour, but just in case you can't, my config was:

; moderators in grey
(("Sledge" 0) ("aj" 0) ("IRC" 13)
; global debconf-team in blues/purples
 ("stockholm" 4) ("marga" 5) ("Tolimar" 7) ("bdale" 8) ("Ganneff" 4) ("h01ger" 7) ("gwolf" 4)
; edi local team in green - Maulkin labelled as such because he kept pointing it out
 ("moray" 10) ("Maulkin" 11)
; sjj local team in red
 ("vedran_sjj" 12))
  1. * IRC log started on Mon Jul 10 19:19:34 2006 - see under "So, where to from here?
  2. <Sledge> no sign of aj anywhere that I can find
  3. <Sledge> let's start
  4. <Sledge> item 1
  5. <Sledge> what are the priorities for debconf?
  6. <stockholm> (what about those in the checklist, that we agreed on?)
  7. <Sledge> stockholm: good point
  8. <Sledge> has everybody ready bdale's list?
  9. <marga>
  10. <marga> I think Bdale's priorities are quite alright.
  11. <vedran_sjj> I basically agree with bdales priority list
  12. <Sledge> any objections to any of those items?
  13. <moray> I haven't thought deeply about the ordering, but I felt I agreed with bdale's list when I read it
  14. <Sledge> anythings that should be added?
  15. <stockholm> the priorities are in a differnet form at
  16. <stockholm> font size indicates the importance
  17. <marga> I think it lacks something about accessibility, but the rest really seems to reflect my thoughts... Although I'd probably go with a different order.
  18. <marga> <slef> there's nothing about orga on that list, whereas it seems the problems debconf has worst today are orga
  19. <Sledge> marga: do you mean central orga, or local orga?
  20. <marga> It was slef, but I think he means local.
  21. <bdale> marga: when I wrote that email, I was trying to "stay above" what I knew of the issues in the orga team, and I certainly don't know all of the issues in the team regardless
  22. <Sledge> ok, that's a fair enough addition
  23. <marga> So, having a strong, mature, experienced local team is a priority. An important one.
  24. <bdale> I easily agree with that
  25. <Sledge> ok, where does it fit in the list?
  26. <bdale> I'd place it after affordable and the trappings of a good working environment, but ahead of almost everything else
  27. <Sledge> that matches my own idea; anybody else?
  28. <Sledge> ok, it seems we're happy enough with the ordering
  29. <Sledge> which makes the priorities:
  30. <Sledge> "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
  31. <Sledge> good working spaces
  32. <Sledge> strong, mature, experienced local team
  33. <Sledge> excellant network connectivity
  34. <Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
  35. <Sledge> suitabile housing in close proximity
  36. <Sledge> presentation facilities
  37. <Sledge> travel logistics
  38. <Sledge> does that work for people?
  39. <stockholm> i would move up the local team, actuallz.
  40. <Sledge> stockholm: to which position?
  41. <stockholm> 2nd
  42. * h01ger thinks the whole debconf-orga-lead topic should be moved up. or at least be present. maybe its good to have it in the end, or maybe not
  43. <marga> accesibility is soft of missing, although it's more like a general thing.
  44. <Maulkin> marga: I think that can be derived from the otehr items :)
  45. <bdale> marga: at least in my part of the world, it is mostly taken as a given part of the context. but I am certainly perfectly ok with it being an explicit priority.
  46. * h01ger thinks bith venues are sufficiently accessible. Ganneff, otavio (is not here..) ?
  47. <Sledge> ok, let's add accessibility to make it clear
  48. <bdale> marga: however, in practical terms, it doesn't look like accessibility is a significant differentiator between the two proposals for dc7
  49. <marga> bdale: no, I know.
  50. <gwolf> bdale: This time we failed in that regard because it was not such a given :)
  51. <bdale> gwolf: good point
  52. <Ganneff> h01ger: SJJ has advantages
  53. <Ganneff> h01ger: but EDI also, depends where you look
  54. <Ganneff> both are good
  55. <Ganneff> both are fine vor debconf.
  56. <Sledge> accessibility priority level?
  57. <stockholm> i would give it level 7 or so
  58. <stockholm> but in this caes it does not matter
  59. <bdale> Sledge: it seems like the important thing is for it to be on the list so it isn't forgotten, not so much where it is on the list
  60. <Sledge> ok, let's just add it to the list
  61. <Sledge> list by my reckoning is now:
  62. <Sledge> "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
  63. <Sledge> strong, mature, experienced local team
  64. <Sledge> good working spaces
  65. <Sledge> excellant network connectivity
  66. <Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
  67. <Sledge> suitabile housing in close proximity
  68. <Sledge> presentation facilities
  69. <Sledge> travel logistics
  70. <Sledge> accessibility
  71. <Maulkin>
  72. <Sledge> anything more/less?
  73. <h01ger> so this is priorities?
  74. <stockholm> what about continuity?
  75. <stockholm> i think it is important for a complex thing like debconf
  76. <Sledge> stockholm: is that actually a separate priority, or just part of the background organisation?
  77. <stockholm> Sledge: i think it should be considered
  78. <Tolimar> stockholm: what do you mean by "continuity"? (I know what the word means, but in this context of venue decission I don't understand what you mean.)
  79. <stockholm> Tolimar: if you change too many factors at once in a conplex system you certainly have a uncontroled state.
  80. <Tolimar> stockholm: Ah, okay. Thanks.
  81. <stockholm> Tolimar: continuity means that it location is not radically different to everthing before, which invalidates what we know how a debconf works
  82. <marga> stockholm: I think we are stating the priorities about choosing a location, not about what the team has to do better.
  83. <bdale> stockholm: hrm. we've had some pretty large differences in the venues to date, though, haven't we?
  84. <stockholm> bdale: actually they were similar to some degree.
  85. <aj> so, what i thought (back when i was last awake...) would be interesting, would be seeing what the SJJ thought EDI's strenghts were (the areas in whcih they'd have the most problems matching or beating) that matter for debian, and vice-versa; and seeing what SJJ and EDI thought there own weaknesses were?
  86. <stockholm> why is this better then comparing according priorities?
  87. <marga> I think it might be interesting, but are we doing the comparison against priorities or not?
  88. <Sledge> agenda item 2 - teams compare their bids
  89. <Sledge> point out strengths of the opposing bid, and weaknesses in their own
  90. <Maulkin> Agenda at
  91. <vedran_sjj> 1. SJJ has no budget flights... while EDI has a lot of budget flights
  92. <vedran_sjj> obviously this presents a problem for non-sponsored atendees
  93. <vedran_sjj> making it more expensive and complicated to visit SJJ
  94. <vedran_sjj> (as I said earlier, I'm doing strengths/weaknesses at the same time)
  95. <vedran_sjj> (cause I don't want to just repeat the same stuff...)
  96. <vedran_sjj> we spent a lot of energy finding a solution to this problem
  97. <vedran_sjj> we can make it smaller, but now dissapear completely
  98. <vedran_sjj> I say non-sponsored, because sponsorship is in the spreadsheet
  99. <vedran_sjj> 2. EDI has a well-known debian community
  100. <vedran_sjj> they have several DDs on their team
  101. <vedran_sjj> while our team is a strong general Linux community but less involved with Debian
  102. <vedran_sjj> though I see this as an opportunity to convert this community to Debian :)
  103. <vedran_sjj> some may disagree...
  104. <vedran_sjj> 3. SJJ might be less interesting to corporate sponsorship
  105. <aj> (converting the community to debian would be a strength of the bid, don't cheat :)
  106. <vedran_sjj> ok sorry
  107. <vedran_sjj> we had that problem (no 3) when talking about another prospective FOSS conference
  108. <vedran_sjj> 4. and I'd like to add (some from my team disagree strongly...) the cultural issues
  109. <vedran_sjj> I understand some DC attendees might have issues with SJJ
  110. <vedran_sjj> -- as I said I'm doing both at the same time
  111. <aj> which cultural issues do you see still being a problem for sjj potentially?
  112. <vedran_sjj> point 4:
  113. <vedran_sjj> this is really very subjective
  114. <vedran_sjj> we tried to remove such issues (even have a wiki on that)
  115. <vedran_sjj> but I think some people will just never change their opinion no matter what we do
  116. <vedran_sjj> the issue is prejudice and not the actual state
  117. <vedran_sjj> of things
  118. <vedran_sjj> to repeat EDIs strenghts: EDI airport, more attractive to sponsors etc.
  119. <vedran_sjj> well thats it, we'll be open for questions if needed
  120. <aj> since there's a minute left; would you go to EDI if they had dc7 and you could?
  121. <vedran_sjj> yes why not
  122. <moray> I think the main advantage for Sarajevo over Edinburgh is that it's a cheaper city for food/accommodation
  123. <moray> i.e. either of the same quality is definitely cheaper in Sarajevo than Edinburgh
  124. <moray> (2) The Bosnians hope that they'll create some more interest in free software by having the conference there
  125. <moray> (3) It's probably a more 'exotic' location (a lot of people seem to find the UK a boring idea ;)
  126. <moray> (4) I know that a lot of people prefer the 'self-contained' venue they're proposing
  127. <moray> weaknesses:
  128. <moray> (1) We're competing with a lot of other events in Edinburgh to get venues/accommodation, especially since we're proposing a venue right in the middle of the city
  129. <moray> (2) The obviously drives up prices for facilities, and it also means things need to be booked early
  130. <moray> (3) Edinburgh is a more expensive city than Sarajevo, though this is mitigated because we'd be right in the centre (zero travel costs once you're there), and all the city-run tourist things are free
  131. <moray> Weather - when I visited Sarajevo, it was consistently bright and mid-30s
  132. <moray> while I've already explained that Edinburgh isn't wet compared to Glasgow, people *are* likely to see some rain while they're here ;)
  133. <moray> oh, one more, someone implies people may be worried about kilts or haggis or bagpipes ;)
  134. <aj> vedran_sjj: okay, cheap food, local interest, exotic locale, self-contained venue; did you have any other strengths for sjj you wanted to remind people of very briefly?
  135. <vedran_sjj> ok, public transport in sjj is very cheap
  136. <vedran_sjj> we have a top quality venue
  137. <vedran_sjj> a four star hotel
  138. <vedran_sjj> everything under one roof, 24/7
  139. <aj> that one's mentioned (self contained venue)
  140. <vedran_sjj> I'd like to add 24/7 availability
  141. <vedran_sjj> we have an already established Internet link + prospective donors for wireless
  142. <vedran_sjj> Internet in rooms
  143. <vedran_sjj> also we have server & video rooms available
  144. <vedran_sjj> and one more thing: IMHO we have quite good accessibility support
  145. <aj> moray: since i forgot earlier; if dc7 were in sjj, would you be going?
  146. <moray> aj: well, I'd rather answer about the whole team - I'm sure that there will be a good representation from our UK bid team, wherever it is
  147. <aj> moray: any additional strengths of edi you'd like to mentioned, other than cheap fligths, debian community, corporate sponsors?
  148. <moray> the bid team has a lot of experience of past debconfs, as well as other free software events and academic conferences, so I think we have a lot of experience between us to work to organise a good event
  149. <moray> we're proposing debconf in a very central location, so we have all the amenities of the city right on our doorstep
  150. <moray> the city as a whole is accessible, with e.g. the taxis required to be able to transport wheelchairs, as well as wheelchair accessible buses
  151. <moray> the venues are flexible about network rearranging/mess etc.
  152. <moray> there's lots of breakout space in the venue as well as outside
  153. <moray> Edinburgh's a major network hub, we *might* be able to negotiate 1Gb/s from the venue, but it's certainly easy to get a nice (if slower than that) connection from one of our sponsor ISPs
  154. <moray> the city is well-connected besides flights, btw, people from Europe can also take trains and ferries if they want to avoid killing the earth so fast
  155. <aj> vedran_sjj: does that summary from moray of edi strengths sound fair?
  156. <vedran_sjj> I'd like to add that we have some of the same things
  157. <vedran_sjj> breakout space, network flexibility, we also have a minibus for transportation of disabled persons
  158. <Sledge> 10 minutes for questions, we'll be ruthless about moving on
  159. <marga> vedran_sjj: if DC7 is in SJJ, who will be the local-team leader and how will that work?
  160. <vedran_sjj> sapphire will be the leader, but our team on democratic principles
  161. <vedran_sjj> our team WORKS on democratic principles
  162. <aj> so i believe HP at least are committed to sponsoring debconf independent of the venue, as long as the conference is effective at improving debian; i think that's worth noting explicitly, since sjj were concerned it might be a weakness for them
  163. <vedran_sjj> there will be at least three deputees
  164. <vedran_sjj> Amar, Amila and myself
  165. <Sledge> marga: answered for you?
  166. <marga> Sledge: I guess. Just one more thing, who would be communicating with the orga team?
  167. <vedran_sjj> all four of us
  168. <Maulkin> Both teams: Why do you want to host debconf?
  169. <moray> 'to make Debian better' - or, more specifically, because we're really enjoyed previous debconfs and want to contribute something back
  170. <vedran_sjj> we have a strong Linux community, with this I believe that we would push that community towards Debian
  171. <stockholm> i have a question for for edinburgh: what options did you explore for budget food? did you investigate different places like the mosque, to combine both price and variety?
  172. <stockholm> something like indish on fridays, pasta on mondays, haggis on sat... (c:
  173. <moray> the mosque kitchen is still an available option. the catering option at Teviot (for example) is a flexible canteen, and is much cheaper than other external caterers we've investigated. really the best solution depends on how much money the organising team overall decides to devote to food. the precise details on food can be organised much closer to the event than the main venue booking
  174. <marga> This is a comment, and a follow-up question. After the experience in MEX we've learned to distrust things that are promised. So it would be nice that whenever stating a situation you would state if it's an actual fact, a fact that is confirmed to happen, or just an informal promise... So, both teams, do you have a 'Plan B' for things that were promised but haven't happened yet?
  175. <vedran_sjj> marga: please be more exact
  176. <aj> to clarify, i think marga means promised by sponsors, not by the local team
  177. <marga> vedran_sjj: like network in the rooms, or that sort of stuff, which is not there yet.
  178. <vedran_sjj> marga: for ISP, we discussed with their manager and they said that we will have an official "letter of intent" but sadly their marketing guy was out of town
  179. <vedran_sjj> network in rooms - there is infrastructure, they just need a few switches to hook it up
  180. <vedran_sjj> they have Cat5 in the rooms
  181. <vedran_sjj> so I guess plan B is: we will provide the switches ;)
  182. <vedran_sjj> most other stuff I can think of is promised to be free, but at worst we will pay for it
  183. <h01ger> vedran_sjj, for visas at the airport?
  184. <vedran_sjj> h01ger: we have a promise from Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of B&H and we also have confirmation from other similar venues that they have experience with this
  185. <vedran_sjj> h01ger: thats pretty much as good as it gets....
  186. <h01ger> vedran_sjj, nods - but you know gwolf also had promises from the bureucrazy...
  187. <vedran_sjj> h01ger: personally I trust the other organizations that organized similar events
  188. <moray> I don't think we're relying on anything that isn't already in place. there's still the question of negotations on facilities falling through before contracts are signed, etc. - I don't think our venues are fly-by-night like that, but this is also why we've been keeping a number of venue options open to get the best deal while we negotiate
  189. <moray> nothing we've asked for from the venues is 'unusual' for them, so I don't foresee problems
  190. <stockholm> what about if the rooms are not 24/7 in edi?
  191. <moray> stockholm: we now have both the ECA and Teviot offering 24/7
  192. <moray> stockholm: if we didn't have that, we do also have a backup option of another space we could use at night nearby
  193. <Maulkin> "both teams, will you bid for 2008 if you don't win?"
  194. <aj> (2009; 2008 will be on a different continent apparently)
  195. <stockholm> (isnt that question rather hypothetical, since it is far in the future?)
  196. <vedran_sjj> we will bid on 2009 but I doubt that we will get the same prices...
  197. <moray> I think some people will be 'burnt out' for another DebConf bid after the length of time that's led up to this one; also at points in this process it's been implied that the UK is simply too expensive a country, and if prices are unlikely to fall significantly. however, we do have people on the team who would be expect to be interested in bidding again in 2009 if it doesn't happen this year
  198. <Maulkin> "can we get food at 3am in both sjj and edi after a long night hacking / is there food or restarants generally around the place?"
  199. <vedran_sjj> Maulkin: we can get food 24/7
  200. <aj> vedran_sjj: from where? the hotel or surrounding shops or...?
  201. <vedran_sjj> aj: from hotel and the nearby restaurant (very cheap)
  202. <vedran_sjj> aj: though the restaurant is not 24/7 :)
  203. <moray> Maulkin: yes, we're right in the middle of the city
  204. <marga> moray: do the pubs close?
  205. <moray> Maulkin: a lot of bars/restaurants nearby, and fast food places nearby for late night
  206. <moray> marga: yes, at different times from each other
  207. <aj> so, if the other team hosts the conference, what will your team end up doing? helping out remotely as part of the orga team; running something else? what ideas do people have? people from -discuss might want to chime in to, i don't know if we want to demoderate briefly
  208. <vedran_sjj> aj: some team members will help out
  209. <aj> one possibility i see for sarajevo is having a regional miniconference, or a regional "free software" conference -- both those have been quite successful in australia
  210. <aj> 06:36 <weasel> aj: is this to imply that DebConf will be in EDI?
  211. <aj> no, definitely not -- it does imply i'd like to see a conference in sjj next year either way though
  212. <moray> Maulkin: also from Edinburgh we have e.g. Mark Brown interested in helping with video team stuff in SJJ, Paul Sladen who says he'd attend and sleep lots ;)
  213. <aj> 06:36 <slef> is either venue short of regional conferences already?
  214. <aj> edi, sjj; are there other local conferences you can go to if dc isn't local?
  215. <vedran_sjj> aj: there are no other confs
  216. <moray> aj: I think that depends what you mean by 'local'; there do tend to be Debian *social* events in the UK, though mostly down in the south of England, while it's quite easy to get from Edinburgh to events on the continent
  217. <aj> vedran_sjj: is it difficult for bosnians to get to KDE, GNOME etc conferences that moray mentions? i guess due to travel costs?
  218. <vedran_sjj> aj: yes, there are visa issues and the general financial issues
  219. <vedran_sjj> aj: though I'm wandering about the purpose of this line of questions
  220. <aj> damn, and i thought i'd be the one asking the difficult questions
  221. <aj> okay, so this requires a little background
  222. <aj> in australia, we have an annual linux conference; it started in '99, missed a year, continued in 2001 and has been annual since then
  223. <aj> i was on the organising team for it in 2002 (we had about 250-300 people), and have been more or less involved in most of them since then
  224. <aj> the focus of the conference is basically "it's too hard to travel to europe for most of us to see all their cool talks, ditto america, so let's bring them out here"
  225. <aj> in 2002 we also started running a debian miniconf, which attracted about 100 people, mostly debian users rather than developers, and has continued ever year since too
  226. <aj> it's different to debconf, since it's more about talks and users than hacking and developers, but is quite interesting
  227. <aj> it just strikes me that bosnia/the balkans are in a similar situation, and maybe a similar solution would be interesting; i know a few people i've talked to who are in favour of edi for dc7, also think that a "linux.conf.balkans" every year would be a fascinating event
  228. <vedran_sjj> aj: interesting idea, but it's a bit hard to think about that when we don't know if we will host DebConf or not
  229. <Maulkin> aj, would it not make sense to use a DebConf as a kick-off for an annual series?
  230. <aj> Maulkin: it could easily, the question is what would edi do then? i don't even have a guess for that
  231. <Sledge> orga team comments
  232. <Sledge> item 4
  233. <Maulkin> <stockholm> i asked sponsors if they would sponsor either debconf edinburgh or sarajevo when asking for sponsorship last time around. and they consider both "europe" and would sponsor. e.g. the big providers in germany etc.
  234. <Maulkin> 21:00 <gwolf> As for the local teams, the EDI team looks more responsable/grown-up, and I must acknowledge their balance - even on looking on Sarajevo information when the other team could not answer something
  235. <Maulkin> 21:02 <gwolf> The SJJ team looks very enthusiastic, and they (claim to - should we believe them? I do at least :) ) have experience on other non-Debconf conferences - Now, as for my experience here, no conference gets you ready for Debconf... But still :)
  236. <Maulkin> 21:02 <gwolf> Anyway, I won't go anymore on the issue-per-issue thing
  237. <Maulkin> 21:03 <gwolf> Both venues have great installations, but I think the Terme hotel provides a more comfortable setting where we will be able to sit and work
  238. <Maulkin> 21:02 <gwolf> The amount of details we can work on for both sides is huge
  239. <Maulkin> Oh, and for me, I'm staying out of particular discussions, due to potential bias.
  240. <marga> <mooch> nokia will probably not have a problem with the venue
  241. <marga> It is the opinion of several people (mooch is the one raising it at this moment), that should the conference happen in SJJ, Safir might not be the best person to lead the group since it needs a lot of cold blood and controled spirit not to break apart, and he has demonstrated to be too influenced by personal feelings and attacking attitude during the process.
  242. <aj> the term "impulsive" maybe have appeared too; i'd just like to say that i've been very impressed by the excitement and enthusiasm of the sjj team, and while i think that has boiled over into taking offense unnecessarily now and then, it's that sort of passion that makes these sorts of conferences great
  243. <aj> otoh, actually running them tends to teach you hot to deal with those sorts of reactions, because you get so stressed out you have to learn one way or another
  244. <h01ger> <amar_sjj> Maulkin: the bosnian team consists of 27 people. Safir initiated everything but the DebCof will be handled by the TEAM.
  245. <h01ger> i think i value the "strong, mature, experienced local team" EDI team, but must admit he has also been impressed by the SJJ team recently but still has doubts.
  246. <Sledge> item 5 by my count
  247. <Sledge> 5: "weigh up bids against priorities"
  248. <marga> ->
  249. <Ganneff> 2,3,4,5,6,7,9 are too similar for both locations and can be kicked imo.
  250. <Sledge> item 1: cost
  251. <Sledge> in terms of cost, we have: cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI
  252. <marga> Ganneff: I think the points at stake are 1,2,4 and 8.
  253. <moray> Sledge: yes: prices on the ground vary depending exactly what we decide to pay for for attendees, but certainly things of the same quality will be cheaper in Sarajevo, whereas getting to Edinburgh gives budget airlines for Europeans, and significantly cheaper flights for others
  254. <Sledge> vedran_sjj: are you happy with the summary of cost?
  255. <vedran_sjj> Sledge: you mean the spreadsheet? yes we're fine with that
  256. <Sledge> pri #2: local team
  257. <Ganneff> edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already. i trust both to make a good conf.
  258. <moray> Sledge: can I correct that we've intentionally only listed people who were already involved, there are a lot more people in the UK who've expressed interest in helping *if* DebConf happens here (including edlug, compsoc people as mentioned on the wiki)
  259. <vedran_sjj> Sledge: also applies for SJJ
  260. <aj> if both teams could keep some room at the conference for non-organisers, that would be great :)
  261. <bdale> my opinion is that both teams have critical mass already
  262. <marga> It's my understanding that it's a question of "National Pride" for SJJ people to hold a DebConf. However, I do fear that they might not be ready for hosting DebConf yet.
  263. <marga> Mainly because only Safir has been present in a previous DebConf, and DebConf is not like any other conference.
  264. <Sledge> pri3: good working spaces
  265. <Sledge> as far as I can see, both bids should have this covered
  266. <Sledge> pri4: excellant network connectivity
  267. <Ganneff> pri4 - edi may have more uplink, but sjj would give us also enough for debconf IMO
  268. <Sledge> both have offers of networking from local ISPs that should be enough for us; EDI may have an advantage in terms of absolute bw
  269. <aj> i believe the edi venue also has wired networking already hooked up, whereas the sjj team may have to do that themselves
  270. <vedran_sjj> Maulkin: I disagree with summary of pri3
  271. * h01ger is not sure about aruba and other hw sponsors but the SJJ offerings are not that bad (because esp. aruba-sponsorship relies on local dealers..)
  272. <Ganneff> aj: no already setup wired did suffice up tonow
  273. <Ganneff> aj: i think we need to run cables in both locations for some parts
  274. <marga> vedran_sjj: pri 3 refers to hacklabs / talk rooms. Not allocation.
  275. <moray> Ganneff: yeah, in ECA we might want to add some, and in either venue would certainly need to split out for individual machines etc.
  276. <vedran_sjj> Sledge: we have confirmed 24/7 and availability of server and video rooms
  277. <h01ger> Ganneff, which might be harder in a hotel (but wasnt a problem in brasil)
  278. <Ganneff> h01ger: not according to the hotel, we asked that. should be doable.
  279. <vedran_sjj> we also have more hacklabs available
  280. <marga> vedran_sjj: more? How many rooms for how many people?
  281. <Ganneff> i wouldnt count numbers there, as some locations in edi have lots of rooms.
  282. <Sledge> vedran_sjj: I think most people are happy with both bids on this front, we should move on
  283. <vedran_sjj> marga: we have 6 rooms available, one large room up to 300 people and the other are smaller
  284. <bdale> if sjj thinks they're slightly ahead on 3, they seem to be slightly behind on 4, so it probably washes out
  285. <vedran_sjj> bdale: I agree
  286. <moray> bdale: in either venue in Edinburgh rooms would be limited by what we rent rather than space
  287. <bdale> my opinion is that both teams have adequate answers for 3 and 4 to ensure a good conf
  288. <Sledge> (5):
  289. <Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
  290. <Ganneff> for 5 - both sites can offer good food. the price may vary in EDI, depending on what is chosen.
  291. <Sledge> on site food seems to be good enough in both, though maybe more expensive in EDI
  292. <Sledge> for separate food, EDI may have a slight advantage due to being right in the city centre; again, both are adequate
  293. <bdale> for perspective, I think dc2 and dc3 were barely adequate in this regard, dc4 had great in-house meals but going off site was a challenge. dc5 was so-so on food all told, and dc6 was stunningly good because there were many options available within easy walk at good prices
  294. <Sledge> ok, moving on to (6): suitabile housing in close proximity
  295. <Sledge> housing: sjj has an advantage with accommodation on the same site; EDI is more spread out (but not a *huge* amount)
  296. <marga> SJJ has an advantage over EDI at prio. 6, since it's a four star hotel, and everything is close together. EDI's proposal is still acceptable and "DebConf level".
  297. <Ganneff> accomodation is in SJJ all in one, EDI is spread in the city. and has of course a lot of hotels also there. plus for sjj imo.
  298. <Sledge> (7): presentation facilities
  299. <Ganneff> for 7 - SJJ has the technic of the hotel included for free. EDI has the lecture halls in ECA and big rooms in teviot.
  300. <Ganneff> sjj has a big room for main talks, with stuff for beamer and sound, and various smaller rooms for other things.
  301. <Ganneff> edi has the lecture halls or big room, and also various smaller rooms. dont know technic in lecture halls in EDI.
  302. <Sledge> ok, so even there by all accounts
  303. <Sledge> (8) travel logistics
  304. <Ganneff> plus for EDI, way more airlines there.
  305. <Sledge> this point is a major plus towards EDI
  306. <bdale> both require 3 airline flights for me. there seem to be more connection options to EDI, and EDI seems to be cheaper though not by a lot.
  307. <bdale> I don't appear to need a visa for either.
  308. <aj> the one world alliance airlines don't seem to travel to sarajevo, though i need to talk to my travel agent again
  309. <marga> bdale: it's been shown that from the list of DC6 attendees more people would need a visa to go to SJJ than to go to EDI.
  310. <moray> Sledge: we may have trouble if a *lot* of Europeans take budget flights to a DebConf in Edinburgh :p
  311. <Sledge> moray: worry about that as/when
  312. <h01ger> moray, same is true for SJJ... (probably even more)
  313. <Ganneff> i think both airports are well connected for the number of people
  314. <bdale> marga: I understand that. I just took the time to research what it would take me to get there, so thought I'd comment. I mentioned here before the meeting that neither country is on the list of places I'm supposed to avoid on behalf of my employer, which is good news.
  315. <h01ger> Ganneff, the both airports point is not true
  316. <Ganneff> h01ger: the capacity for the number of people is ok at both locations.
  317. <Sledge> (8) summary: cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people
  318. <Sledge> moving on to (9) accessibility
  319. <Ganneff> 9 is even for both. SJJ has a slight advantage in the hotel, EDI out in the streets with the need for all taxis to have weelchair access. SJJ seems to have a bus for weelchairs for us to use whenever we want. in EDI disabled people most probably need to go to a hotel, not our hostels. (ie together with sponsors that dont take hostels).
  320. <Maulkin> Right, the final (non ==) list is:
  321. <Maulkin> 2 EDI strong(ish)
  322. <Maulkin> 4 EDI slight
  323. <Maulkin> 5 EDI slight
  324. <Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong
  325. <Maulkin> 8 EDI strong
  326. <Maulkin> The rest draw
  327. <h01ger> so, its edinburgh. now flame me to death.